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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So New York City transit workers are planning to strike at midnight.

Now, having seen the contract they have (floor sweepers make $45k a year plus benes), I have little sympathy.

Furthermore, the transit system is essential for this city. Shutting it down will clog streets. It will make it very difficult for emergency vehicles to get around. It will be WAY more than an inconvenience.

I think for every death attributable to the strike, the union bosses should have to stand trial for one count of negligent homocide.

The cops don't strike, firefighters don't strike, doctors don't strike (and on the rare occasion that we do, we continue to provide emergency medical care), so I find this to be wholly inappropriate and unethical of the union. ESPECIALLY given the contracts they have.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:3 x 8 = 24.

I incorrectly thought I heard 26% on the news. I'm sorry if my 2% error confused you.

I still don't understand your 'query' as without any punctuation it made very little sense as a sentence, let alone as a question. Yet I still tried to assume that you were asking about the 26%.

This is typical of what ticky tack we get caught up with discussing. If you understood the raises to be 24% and I incorrectly said 26% I can't see how that could possibly grind a conversation to a halt.

I didn't understand your question. It does not have the appropriate punctuation to function as an English sentence.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

nyc - can you explain how you calculated the figure of 26% for the wage increase the twu are demanding please.

on its own, a 26% rise in pay is ridiculous but it is not an isolated demand for a rise in pay and i think that oversimplification of the issues is not really that helpful to the discussion.



OK, I understand it now.

"NYC, Can you please explain how you calculated the 26% wage increase?"

No, I heard it on the news. But I heard it wrong. It should really be 24%. Since you feel that a 26% raise is ridiculous but already knew that it was really a 24% raise then you really are ticky tacking over 2%.

This has nothing to do with anything. It drives me up a wall that if I accidentally say 26 instead of 24 the ENTIRE context of a transit strike becomes irrelevant.

I'm sorry I said 26% instead of 24%. I was wrong.

If that's not ticky tack, I don't know what is.


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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:well its over now...just found out after a nice long trip too smile

at least there's mass transit again


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Yup.

And just in time for me to get to the Airport on Saturday Morning. biggrin


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Actually, there are several unions in the city with multi-tiered pension systems. This is no big precedent, in spite of the MTA's bluster about it.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: NYC


Um... what's a quoter?





...one who quotes... wink



...and I believe the number "24% raise" misleading even if it includes "over the next 3 years"... ubbrollsmile



my mentioned example was a 26% raise instantaneously! - like you know NOW! in one go or however you want to put it... eek



people are struggling to keep up with inflation and further they are (as a whole) carrying some responsibility (what happens without them was clearly demonstrated) - we agree upon the fact, that higher responsibility enables someone to demand higher wages (like politicians, pilots, etc.) - so a 8% raise would not have been too much I guess... rolleyes



To deprive any worker from their right to strike is... well... confused ubbloco



Written by: Reuters
A WNBC/Marist poll on Wednesday showed 55 percent of New Yorkers opposed the strike and 38 percent backed it.



One Manhattan restaurant, the Russian Samovar, said it had filed a lawsuit against the union, the MTA, the city and the mayor on behalf of itself and other businesses seeking $250 million in compensation for lost business due to the strike.





One can see it's all back to normal - with more hike for the x-mas presents... wonder HOW MANY other venues they include in the lawsuite and as one has an idea of the system in the US - one suspects this to be the pretzel vendor across the street and the newsstand... wink



NYC: lucky B smile Happy holidays wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Outside my window just now...a train rumbled to a halt, opened its doors, closed them *BING-bong!* and rumbled away.

biggrin


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:nyc - it seems you still did not read any of the words following my 26% question - even though you quoted some of them in your last post! - and instead you just got hung up on the fact that you thought i was making a petty argument.

you said of my question "It does not have the appropriate punctuation to function as an English sentence." which is a bit off i reckon seeing as a page and a half of posts later, you understand it fine.

my point was never that you misheard the news and i'm pretty sure you realise that - i didn't even notice the miscalculation until you fobbed off my arguments and i thought that would be a good time to point out that i had already stated the actual wage demands in this very thread.

my major point was that you presented the wage increase as if it were the only issue and to boot you did it in a misleading manner (making it seem like they were demanding an instant 24% wage hike).

they did not ask for a 24% raise increase - they asked for 8% annual raises over three years TO OFFSET THE OTHER CHANGES TO THEIR CONTRACTS.

i went on to say that i thought that just stating the wage demands by themselves was misleading since it ignores the factors that prompted this wage demand in the first place i.e. the changes the mta were imposing on the benefits, pensions and contracts of workers (and future workers).


we should possibly give up on this one - you think i'm being petty and i think you've been ignoring/skirting my actual argument shrug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
they did not ask for a 24% raise increase - they asked for 8% annual raises over three years TO OFFSET THE OTHER CHANGES TO THEIR CONTRACTS.



Which would have more than compensated for it.

But Cole, this isn't about the contract. It wouldn't matter if the MTA had been proposing to sell the TWU workers first-borns into slavery. The contract is a side issue.

See, this is about the strike. The STRIKE is illegal and it's illegal for a very good reason. When ALPA goes on strike against Northwest Airlines the pilots are getting at the airline, putting financial pressure on the airline and saying "you'd better give us a contract or you'll go broke really fast."

But when the TWU goes on strike they aren't hurting the MTA. The MTA is a public corporation and it's not going to go out of business no matter how long the strike lasts. In fact, in this case it would be perfectly legal for the MTA to fire the entire union and start hiring anew, which is not legal in private-sector strikes.

See, in this case, the only people really getting hurt by this were NEW YORKERS. And that, regardless of which side was demanding what, is why the strike is and should be illegal.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Except for me. I made out like a bandit. No traffic on the way to work and I got to leave work right on time "Gotta run, you know... transit strike".

wink

But it was pretty damn stressful I must say.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:And Cole, I really did NOT understand your puctuationless sentence on the first five reads. I wouldn't give people crap on punctuation or spelling unless it affects my ability to understand it.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:the contract is a side issue?



i think not mike - without the contract dispute, there would be no strike - its ALL about the contracts.



the workers feel so strongly about it that they are prepared to lose money (see daily fines imposed on striking members of the union), make themselves criminals (by breaking a law that leaves them little or no recourse in the situation they find themselves in) and risking the fact that normal new yorkers might take the attitude that they are 'only doing this to hurt the people of nyc' and end up hating them.



the mta is indeed a public corporation and is not affected by a strike in the same way as a private company is.



the way the strike 'hurts' an organisation like the mta is by bringing attention to the fact that it is using the advantages of its monopoly to treat its workers unfairly.



calling a complete strike on the lead up to the biggest public holiday of the year ensures that the issue gets the most amount of coverage/attention possible - why else do you think tube drivers have chosen to schedule their strike for new years eve here in london?



the mta is the authority responsible for keeping nyc moving and, by attempting to short-change their employees and subsequently calling their bluff on the strike, they failed to do that.





nyc - sorry man, i just didn't think it was that badly phrased.



plus, it doesn't explain why you ignored all of the rest of my arguments/observations.



anyway, for future reference, would this have been a better way of phrasing the question:



"can you explain how you calculated the figure of 26% for the wage increase the twu are demanding please."

-->

"could you please explain how you calculated that the twu are demanding a 26% wage increase?"



smile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Almost, You're not asking how I calculated that they demanded it. You're asking how I calculated the 26%.

But I think I would have understood your rewrite.

And I DID guess that's what you were saying. It was just worded in a way that caused confusion.

hug


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: nyc


You're asking how I calculated the 26%.







that is what i wanted to ask no?



i wanted you to admit that what they actaully asked for was not one increase of 26% (a ridiculous demand that no union would ever make) but rather three annual increases of 8%.



you just added those up and stated them as a massive one-off wage increase demand with no reference to the time period over which they should be made which, while strictly not incorrect, is not specific enough and is designed to present the wage increase as entirely unreasonable.



compare with:

i started out earning 18k a year and now i'm on 28k a year which means i must have had a 68% wage increase at some point.

in actual fact, i received annual wage increases, of a maximum of 7%, over a period of 10 years.



see what i was getting at?



i ain't no ticky tacker wink hug





cole. x



edit: i'm out like a dog who just sh!t on the sofa - merry christmas and happy holidays everyone grouphug


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Yeah... NOW I get what you were getting at.

Next time just say it coherently with some punctuation so I don't need a decoder ring to figure it out. wink


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: coleman

the contract is a side issue?

i think not mike - without the contract dispute, there would be no strike - its ALL about the contracts.




Cole, they've come up with a new contract every three years for the last 25 without striking.

The difference is that the union boss wanted his 15 minutes of fame, wanted to get everyone riled up, and make a statement.

One *could* argue that it's even tantamount to terrorism. To disrupt a public transport system essential to a city for the purposes of making a political statement.

The contract issue isn't resolved, is it? They still don't have one. They're right back where they started, except they're all a week's pay poorer and the union is US$2 million poorer. And New Yorkers suffered dearly. Are they to pay the half-billion dollars lost to business these three days?

But who didn't suffer? The MTA. The MTA can't go out of business, now, can it?

So it's all about the strike because the contract got nowhere and the strike didn't hit the people on the other side of the table at all. It hit us and only us, and we've got nothing to do with it.

Tell me, Cole, should the police be able to go on strike? The city could continue to function far better without them than without transport. At least for a few days.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:So my first thought is... "If the police go on strike I could TOTALLY spin fire without being harassed."

ubblol

It is intersting how 'terrorism' clearly must have some intent. Because the extent of damage from this is pretty damn close to economic terrorism.

There are so many businesses that are going to be destroyed as a result of this.

Oh, and don't ask my any questions for a while. I'll be in London for 10 days trying to avoid Cole. wink

When I get back home (and next check my computer) you boys better have this all worked out.

Goodnight.


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JayKitty
JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey
Member Since: 7th Nov 2004
Total posts: 534
Posted:I'm just happy it's over. I won't even try to understand the politics behind it.

Don't mind me, just passing through.

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JayKitty
JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey
Member Since: 7th Nov 2004
Total posts: 534
Posted:Nothing interesting like that ever happens in Jersey.

Well, our mayor came out a few months ago. That was something.


Don't mind me, just passing through.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Is he cute??? biggrin

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning
The difference is that the union boss wanted his 15 minutes of fame, wanted to get everyone riled up, and make a statement. [...] So it's all about the strike because the contract got nowhere and the strike didn't hit the people on the other side of the table at all. It hit us and only us, and we've got nothing to do with it. [...] Tell me, Cole, should the police be able to go on strike? The city could continue to function far better without them than without transport. At least for a few days.



Sorry - but this is soo much crap at once that one feels urged to say something...

---holds on to the table and his education in order not to get rude--- mad2

You MUST be kidding! ubblol This is kind of the NewYorkian sense of humor that I really appreciate - unfortunately somebody not being familiar with it may actually get it wrong...

If there is anything substancial behind it - please input - otherwise we should shift this thread to "Social Chat"...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Merry merry - hohoho


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: FireTom

You MUST be kidding! ubblol This is kind of the NewYorkian sense of humor that I really appreciate - unfortunately somebody not being familiar with it may actually get it wrong...



If you have something to say, then say it, rather than resorting to sarcasm and ad homiem attacks.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:can't be bothered, dude...

can't be bothered to waste another 10 baht on the internetmachine here... really ubblol

ahwellthereyago - igetmya**spankedanyways:

if you really think that nyc is safe without the cops - rather than admitting that NYC is NOT a nice small (european) city but a melting pot, full of guns and whackos ready to use them... confused (whispers: "doyourememberthedeathclockontimessquare? tellsyouhowsaneandpeacefulamericaisEVENWITHCOPS! ifyou'dbetalkingaboutthel.a.p.d.i'dhavenoobjection - rememberwhytheriotscameup?"...)

and back to topic:

if you really believe a strike is just for fun and fame - rather than underlaying a demand and statement in favour for the members of the union (who the union's responsible for)
- that unions (maybe in general) are sacking the country (or the city) instead of defending a minimal right for the working class, you may go to countries where they do NOT have any unions and try your luck there...

IF the members of the union wouldn't share this view, they wouldn't have supported it.

I'm speaking of: China, India, Indonesia and other 3rd world countries where the corporate America (and the rest of the corporate world actually) invests billions of dollars BECAUSE they have neither unions, nor environmental parties (or concerns) - therefore leaving behind those annoying naggers "at home" who actually want to survive, because they can't live on a bowl of rice/day... xcuse me please... it's formulated with the best intent and not in anger...

look to china where in one (industrial) city about 28 workers "loose" a limb every day in production - you reckon that people in your country (and mine) would not accept the same environment? as long as they don't have to work in it themselves?

The mass transportation system in NY is really NOT the same as in my town (Munich - where it's actually nice, clean, and (most of the time) working)... if you're talking that it's a fine job to drive a bus in Manhattan, or the A-train... to deal with 10 million hectic people and (many of them) agressive on an everydays basis, getting the blame if late - you're talking out of your.... cosy office...

But you seem to have your mind made up already (maybe even in favour of the corporate america - however) and I guess there is not much - if anything - that I could say or do in order to change it...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I'm going to say it again, because you missed it: The MTA is not a private corporation. Striking against the MTA does not hurt the MTA.

Striking goes against New Yorkers, who depend on this system and are unable to make feasable alternative transit arrangements, as demonstrated by the fact that New Yorkers had 4-hour commutes to work during the strike.

The strikers struck to hurt New Yorkers, not to hurt the MTA because the MTA can only go bankrupt if the state lets it do so.

Furthermore, I never said I was anti-union. In fact, I couldn't be anti-union because I am a union member. People seem to be missing that statement so I'll say it again. I am a union member. One more time: ready? I am a union member. Yet somehow my union has managed to secure for us the best possible contract that residents can get with excellent benefits without ever having us go on strike.

Why can't we strike? Because our employer is the City of New York and striking isn't going to do a darned thing. Furthermore, going on strike would be unethical because it would jharm our patients.

Transport workers carry immense responsibility because without them, nobdy can get anywhere. This strike was an abuse of that responsibility and the ultimate proof was that all it bought them were stinging fines and not much else.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Disagreed - even though you're a union member.

Working conditions for doctors in Germany have improved by 1.000.000% since they went on strike and were sueing the hospitals for better working conditions.

And I don't think it was unethical, because it prevents doctors from having to make 36 hour emergency shifts and perform vital operations after 36hours without sufficient sleep - which is having the same effect than being stoned or drunk.

EVERY worker has (as every human being) the pristine and basic right to refuse going to work if his workforce is exploited.

Period.

I don't care, whether in governmental service or not.

Suspecting the MTA-workers to intentionally harm the citicens of NY is not a good thing to do and maybe it would help you to speak with them directly, rather than to follow media coverage.

You may be under the majority in NY who is not supporting the strike, but there are about 38 or so percent who are not opposing it... and I am with them. shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I hardly think that paying someone US$50k a year with full benefits for nonskilled labor counts as "exploitation."

There were other ways to solve this, such as binding arbitration. The strike was unnecessary.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: FireTom


if you really think that nyc is safe without the cops - rather than admitting that NYC is NOT a nice small (european) city but a melting pot, full of guns and whackos ready to use them... confusedtellsyouhowsaneandpeacefulamericaisEVENWITHCOPS



I understand it's politically correct to hate America and Americans but I assume you have no evidence in suggesting that New York is just full of guns and whakos aside from what you've seen in movies.

Bigotry isn't cute. It makes me sad how comfortable everyone is being hateful when it's of people of certain nationalities and cities of origin.

I absolutely love New York City and take any attack on my city, friends and family as a personal one. I'd certainly never judge an entire foreign city on the actions of a few.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:hmm - if so hug please excuse me...

I was actually living (admittedly not long) in Manhattan - Hells Kitchen and was speaking from my personal impressino... I didn't mean to offend anyone but you may hit me with a rythmstick for my personal opinion - hit me slowly hit me quick wink

But yes - right now it seems to be PC to disagree with everything that's coming from the 7th cavalry since they came to late to save Jane from King Kong - get over it! kiss

PS: feeling better with your cold?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Disagreed - even though you're a union member.

Working conditions for doctors in Germany have improved by 1.000.000% since they went on strike and were sueing the hospitals for better working conditions.



It's true that doctors go on strike, but our first concern is for the well-being of our patients. We don't kick sick people out of hospitals and we continue to perform emergency services. Surgeons have gone on strike before, but they still did emergency cases (like traumas and appendectomies).

To paralyze a city that has no say in the process is tantamount to terrorism. And it's not a word I use lightly.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:knock knock - helloooo?

this has a very interesting side-aspect, sir. see how dependant you are? de-centralisation is the key for the future.

i mean c'mon it's not as if the power supply is going on strike and pulling the plug, or the watersupply, or the paramedics.

you're just suffering your very own system: THEY'VE GOT THE POWER... dedet dededededede... so they're ready to use it.

the world's bad bad bad - that's just the way it is. no?

get over it ubblol
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not new years - yet wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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