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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So New York City transit workers are planning to strike at midnight.

Now, having seen the contract they have (floor sweepers make $45k a year plus benes), I have little sympathy.

Furthermore, the transit system is essential for this city. Shutting it down will clog streets. It will make it very difficult for emergency vehicles to get around. It will be WAY more than an inconvenience.

I think for every death attributable to the strike, the union bosses should have to stand trial for one count of negligent homocide.

The cops don't strike, firefighters don't strike, doctors don't strike (and on the rare occasion that we do, we continue to provide emergency medical care), so I find this to be wholly inappropriate and unethical of the union. ESPECIALLY given the contracts they have.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: coleman

holding the union accountable for those deaths is even less logical to my mind - it is not the job of public transport workers to redcuce the number of accidents on the road.



Actually, that's exactly their job. Well, not accidents, but congestion. The role of a public transport is to reduce the number of cars on the road, and in New York, it does so with amazing effect. Very few Manhattanites own cars.

Then there's the set of people who live in the suburbs who own cars, but use them for local errands, not to commute to work, because they use the trains for that.

Why do you think London introduced Congestion charging? New York is considering the same thing. They want people to use the public transport system in lieu of cars to free up the streets.

In my ideal city, there would be no cars. Only delivery vehicles and public transport.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i completely agree that public transport helps to reduce congestion mike.



still, i stand by my actual statement that you quoted - the job of public transport workers is not to directly reduce traffic-related accidents (even though this may be an outcome of increased use of public transport) and as such, i still disagree with your idea that union reps should be held directly accountable for road-traffic related deaths that occur on strike days.



i too would love a city with little or no cars - the congestion charge here has done a wonderful job and has just been extended which i completely agree with.



there are many parts of london being re-pedestrainised now too (is that a real word?) - lots more lovely squares to drink coffe and juggle in - that makes me very happy smile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I don't think the notion of increased deaths is the fact that emergency services would be cripled if the strike took place. I don't think anyone is talking about traffic accidents.

On a side note... I'm surprised that this isn't covered by the Patriot Act. I remember some wording of "Interfering with Government Activities or Buildings" which a strike would certainly do since the entire MTA is owned by the government.

If shutting down New York City isn't an act of Terrorism than what is? wink


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well spotted, NYC. I'm amazed some McCarthy hasn't run at them accusing them of plotting terrorism, blah-blah-blah.

I can think of many nasty words to use, but "Terrorist" isn't one.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:okay then i'll state it even more generally smile

i don't think the transport workers, the union reps or the union as a whole should be held responsible for any deaths attributed to them because of increased traffic levels on the day of a strike.

i don't even understand how this allocation of increased deaths on the day of a strike could possibly be applied.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Written by: NYC

Well first the MTA offered them a 3% raise over one year, then a 6% raise over 2 years... then a 9% raise over 3 years.

Isn't that basically the cost of living adjustment anyway?!

Still chaos. See what happens Tuesday.


It's actually slightly less than COLA, which means that in real terms it's a net cut in pay.

I now understand, btw, where the union is coming from on disciplinary actions. More than 16,000 DAs this past year, against a total of 33,000 employees. That means that on average almost every other employee has one. Either they're a scurvy lot, which I don't believe (because the trains DO run, and however much we complain, they're actually pretty good), or the MTA is using DAs to save money. And that's not something they should be allowed to do.

I don't know if the solution is putting a limit on the number they're allowed to file, though. That seems stupid.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: coleman

i don't think the transport workers, the union reps or the union as a whole should be held responsible for any deaths attributed to them because of increased traffic levels on the day of a strike.

i don't even understand how this allocation of increased deaths on the day of a strike could possibly be applied.




Well, the same way that increased deaths would happen if doctors went on strike could be applied.

See, if you can't get to the hospital, that's just as bad as having no hospital.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:OK, my new favorite thing now is looking at AOL and seeing what the morons over there think. It's absolutely elistist of me but it's such an easy guilty pleasure... check it out if you're bored at work...

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Yes, let's go.
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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Looks like it's going to be on.

So who suffers?

Well, the poor people (who make less than the MTA workers) suffer because they have no alternative mode of transport.

And the old suffer because they can't walk the miles to get where they need. As do the sick, and parents of the very young, because you can't walk a baby for hours in the cold.

But the young, the healthy, and the wealthy will do fine.

But the part that pisses me off the most, above and beyond the inconvenience to me personally, is that my patients, who are poor children, will not be able to get to the hospital or to clinic tomorrow.

And you can jerk me around, but if you mess with my kids, I turn into a demon.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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JayKitty
GOLD Member since Nov 2004

JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 534
Posted:I agree, it's a really selfish thing. This effects the people that need it the most. I don't have an issue walking an extra few miles, but it really hurts those who need it. All over money.

Don't mind me, just passing through.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning


Written by: coleman


i don't even understand how this allocation of increased deaths on the day of a strike could possibly be applied.







Well, the same way that increased deaths would happen if doctors went on strike could be applied.



See, if you can't get to the hospital, that's just as bad as having no hospital.





okay, i understand that if a patient can't get to the hospital, they can't get treatment but i don't undertstand how you can directly blame a single transit worker for that loss of treatment and their subsequent death.



exactly which transit worker do you want to prosecute for each of your patients that dies as a result of not being able to get a bus?



do you simply work out which bus they would have got, work out which driver should have been driving it and put him/her on trial for murder?



and that raises the larger question: if a patient is so sick that they die as a result of missing just one visit to the hospital, why are they catching a bus rather than being picked up in an ambulance to get to their treatment in the first place?





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: NYC

OK, my new favorite thing now is looking at AOL and seeing what the morons over there think. It's absolutely elistist of me but it's such an easy guilty pleasure... check it out if you're bored at work...


Sadly HoP doesn't support increased text sizes but...

[size=18]all union are out dated.thay are the dinosaur of the passed[/size](sic)

biggrin Were would we be without our articulate and persuasive cousins in America. That was an entire post as well. ubblol


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well I woke up at 2AM to check whether the strike was on and the TV said "MTA RUNNING! NO STRIKE" so I reset my alarm clock and went back to bed to reawake at my regular time with...

"TRANSIT STRIKE!!!"

But the REALLY GREAT NEWS is that it's the "NYC CONTINGENCY PLAN"... I'd have never guessed that my screenname would have been so perfect.

The "NYC CONTINGENCY PLAN" essentially means that NYC can go wherever I want whenever I want and the rest of the roads are completely cleared by the police to make my commute as smooth as possible! It took me 25 minutes to get to work and it usually takes me 40!! And I stopped for a bagel and gasoline!

But EVERYONE ELSE in New York City is SCREWED!!!

The long story short is that they won't let cars INTO the city in the morning... so the only cars in New York are the ones that are already there. And since I'm one of the VERY few people in New York with a car it works out well for me! Most of the upper class is telecommuting or taking the day off, it's only really the people that that MUST come to work to support their familys that are most affected.

I agree with Coleman.. "Let all the poor people die!"

wink wink wink


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)

Written by: NYC

OK, my new favorite thing now is looking at AOL and seeing what the morons over there think. It's absolutely elistist of me but it's such an easy guilty pleasure... check it out if you're bored at work...


Sadly HoP doesn't support increased text sizes but...

[size=18]all union are out dated.thay are the dinosaur of the passed[/size](sic)

biggrin Were would we be without our articulate and persuasive cousins in America. That was an entire post as well. ubblol



offtopic
I just replied to a post up there on how Germans deserve to be blown up by Al Qaida because they don't keep to the GUINEVA CONVENTIONS and kill millions of prisoners of war. Looking muchly forward to the reply ubblol


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Birgit... you must have missed this thread where I originally saw the light of the AOL discussion boards.

hug


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:no, that's why I put the offtopic in... just caught up on Jeff's remark.
But if they ever reply to me I'll post it in the other thread biggrin


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I'm going to bump that sucker up. AOL discussion is fantastic!



EDIT:Just found a jem written about the union workers.



THIS IS THE SAME BUNCH WHO SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY, GETTING RID OF CHRISTMAS AND THERE NUMBER ONE FAVORITE ACLU.

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1135083147)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: coleman

okay, i understand that if a patient can't get to the hospital, they can't get treatment but i don't undertstand how you can directly blame a single transit worker for that loss of treatment and their subsequent death.




Well, I think you should blame them all, but I'd start with the union bosses who came up with this hairbrained idea in the first place.

Written by:

and that raises the larger question: if a patient is so sick that they die as a result of missing just one visit to the hospital, why are they catching a bus rather than being picked up in an ambulance to get to their treatment in the first place?



So here's what happens: your healthy 17-year-old gets shot and the ambulance can't get through because of congestion. And so he sits there on the pavement and bleeds out in the freezing winter because he can't get medical care which could have saved his life.

I could go on and on and list example after example of how this will overextend the emergency transport systems and the police and the fire departments, but I need to get to work, which I can because I drive.

Oh, and patients with non-emergent problems who require regular clinic visits to get their narcotic prescriptions? What do they do now?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

Oh, and patients with non-emergent problems who require regular clinic visits to get their narcotic prescriptions? What do they do now?



plan ahead and not leave their prescriptions to the last possible day?

(getting your point about the ambulances, but people with regular prescriptions who know a strike is coming on should plan ahead. It's not like it's coming out of the blue after all. And I'm sure that if it's life-saving and they can't get there there could be an emergency service in action, such as the pharmacy calls the hospital and can give them enough for a day or two if they get confirmation about the patient.)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I must have been missing out on this one...

you mean actually they would let ambulances NOT pass? eek but standing there? while people are dying in the back?

tell me that's not happening!


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Birgit

plan ahead and not leave their prescriptions to the last possible day?




The timing of the transit strike was a surprise on purpose. They said it would be Friday so people planned on that. Then they said it would be at midnight tonight if it happened so when I woke up at 2AM they said there was no strike. Then at 3 AM (when I was back asleep and had planned for no strike) they voted for a strike. The entire rest of the city had exactly two hours to implement contingency plans, get police on scene, etc... The city says it needs 24 hours to get up and running in 'strike' mode and they only had 2 hours. The trains were running at 2AM and then at 3 they just stopped.

If they voted a week ago and said there would DEFINITELY be a strike today then people should have made plans. But they literally voted and walked off the job with no notice. (We knew there was a POSSIBLITY of a strike at any point but the exact time was purposely vague to cause as much damage as possible IMHO.)


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i understand and agree with the fact that a transit strike in nyc places a larger than normal strain on the emergency services, but i don't believe it is sensible to claim that union bosses should be put on trial for 'negligent homicide'.

its a tricky debate, especially now that the strike has been declared illegal by a judge but i still don't think that effectively calling the striking workers 'murderers' is at all fair.

mike, your example of the 17 year old shot on the street and the fact that you think its appropriate to hold the transit workers that caused the traffic jams that day accountable for his death is a poor one i feel.

what about the police that failed to protect him in the first place - which is actually the main part of their job - are they not more accountable for not doing their job adequately in the first place?

or we could even go about finding the person that shot him in the first place and prosecuting them instead?

as mr nyc himself mentioned, there is a contingency plan in operation to ensure that what you fear does not happen - there are limits on the number of vehicles, a sensible policy of turning away vehicles that do not have a full quota of passengers and keeping roads reserved for use by emergency vehicles.


the transit workers obviously do a massively important job, moving 7 million people a day around the city and keeping congestion in check.

i think that making uwarranted changes to their pension, benefits and pay without proper union consultation was not a sensible move, and the mta (and nyc at large as a result) are paying the price for it today.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

i think that making uwarranted changes to their pension, benefits and pay without proper union consultation was not a sensible move, and the mta (and nyc at large as a result) are paying the price for it today.



I'm certainly not going to defend the corrupt MTA. But the union has absolutley intended to hurt the citizens as much as possible with this one. There are plenty of things they could have done. They could have alternated busses and subway strikes, they could have given a deadline in advance and stuck with it. This is an out of control union swinging wildly at a corrupt government agency and NOBODY is taking responsiblity for anything.

The union demanded a 26% wage increase for THOUSANDS of workers which is COMPLETELY unreasonable.

It's just a shame that the Mayor isn't actually accoutable for this because I don't think it would have gotten to this point if he had been.

Now somebody figure out how I'm gettin' home. wink


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:And I really think that this is CLEARLY in violation of the Patriot Act... " if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;"

To Guantanamooo!!!

wink


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Ha! I FLEW home! Again a benefit of the reverse commute. I LOVE THE TRANSIT STRIKE!

Again though, it became REALLY obvious that there are lots of people getting destroyed by this economically. Any restaurant or small business is gonna get killed by not having people in the city. It's really a sad situation.

The mayor called it "Selfish and Morally Reprehensible"... it's getting harder to disagree.

Apparently the union is being fined $1,000,000 a day as well.

Ugly ugly. Hopefully it will be resolved soon. I can't imagine all the people who aren't as lucky as me that are truly suffering because of this.


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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:After listening to the developments all day, all I can say is I'm glad I'm not living in New York State anymore. The rest of the state usually winds up supporting that city financially as it is.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Birgit

Written by: Doc Lightning

Oh, and patients with non-emergent problems who require regular clinic visits to get their narcotic prescriptions? What do they do now?



plan ahead and not leave their prescriptions to the last possible day?




It's not generally their perogative. And since you can't call in narcotics, how do they get them if they do have the scrip? Walk to the drugstore?

Today a child with pulmonary interstitial emphyzema was unable to come to the hospital for his schedule infusion of steroids. Boy, I sure hope he doesn't get sick.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: coleman

its a tricky debate, especially now that the strike has been declared illegal by a judge but i still don't think that effectively calling the striking workers 'murderers' is at all fair.

mike, your example of the 17 year old shot on the street and the fact that you think its appropriate to hold the transit workers that caused the traffic jams that day accountable for his death is a poor one i feel.

what about the police that failed to protect him in the first place - which is actually the main part of their job - are they not more accountable for not doing their job adequately in the first place?




The difference is that cops and EMT's are on the job, and the TWU workers aren't.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning
It's not generally their perogative. And since you can't call in narcotics, how do they get them if they do have the scrip? Walk to the drugstore?



Wasn't it NYC with the "1-800-calnarc"? - ah no it was about something else, sorry wink Another controversial issue... hmm... juggle

Am I'm prone to get my *** kicked stating that "collateral damage" on one side seems to be "okay" and on the other it's condemned...? (not speaking of members of the board tho... rolleyes )

Re. demanding wage increase of 26% is immoral...

One hears very little about poor chairmans increases or actual retirement plans - not to speak of CEO's having to go on strike to push their demands forward... (do they actually have a Union at all?) Managers demands must be much more moderate and the following statement a pure lie!

(stumbled across this one in a different forum - sounds real? at least I wouldn't be amazed if it was...)

Written by:
"Recently, Pennsylvanias legislature voted to raise their pay. Pennsylvania lawmakers are now the second best compensated state representatives and senators among the fifty states. The Heritage Foundation breaks down the numbers: The pay increase for lawmakers increases base pay 16% from $69,647 to $81,050. Committee chairmen pay increased by 28% to $89,155, and committee vice-chairmen pay increased by 22% to $85,103. Majority and minority leaders' pay increased 24% from $100,911 to $124,788. Pay for the Speaker of the House and Senate President Pro Tempore increased 34% from $108,724 to $145,553. Following the late night vote, there has been a consistent wave of letters to the editor and editorial columns denouncing the hikes. There is a lawsuit pending challenging the constitutionality of the increase..."





rolleyes wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Re. demanding wage increase of 26% is immoral...




Demanding that your wages increase 26% higher than every other city worker. The Fire Department, Police, and Sanitation all got small wage increases. Saying that you're more important than all of them combined and then crippling the city is immoral.

Comparing it to an extremely controversial pay raise that congressmen got years ago is a silly comparison. And the congressmen sure as heck wouldn't have gone on strike.

This city is absolutely crippled. Doc's children aren't getting the medicine they need, Family businesses are being destroyed right before their busiest financial times, children can't get to school which means the schools won't be funded properly next year (they get paid by attendance which was 60% yesterday), People are facing a choice of walking miles to work when it's 12 degrees below freezing or losing their jobs, people are already facing health issues from walking to work.

Us middle class white folks have no trouble giving a cabbie $20 for a $2 ride to work for a few days. The traffic is all being held in the poorer neighborhoods since that's where people drive FROM work to the city. Again, I made it to work in record time since I do the reverse commute.

The people most drastically affected are children, the elderly, the poor and the handicapped.

I feel that they're being robbed so that the transit workers can get a raise.

This is getting disgusting.

But again, no personal complaints from me... it's all good in Middle Class Whiteland, right Lightning?


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