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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:So New York City transit workers are planning to strike at midnight.

Now, having seen the contract they have (floor sweepers make $45k a year plus benes), I have little sympathy.

Furthermore, the transit system is essential for this city. Shutting it down will clog streets. It will make it very difficult for emergency vehicles to get around. It will be WAY more than an inconvenience.

I think for every death attributable to the strike, the union bosses should have to stand trial for one count of negligent homocide.

The cops don't strike, firefighters don't strike, doctors don't strike (and on the rare occasion that we do, we continue to provide emergency medical care), so I find this to be wholly inappropriate and unethical of the union. ESPECIALLY given the contracts they have.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:Written by: NYC

But again, no personal complaints from me... it's all good in Middle Class Whiteland, right Lightning?



Well, I couldn't go on a date last night because of the strike and I can't get to swim practice today because of it...which is annoying.

But yeah, all's well here. rolleyes


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:No date and no swimming?! Careful, if this strike keeps up you might turn straight. wink

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:I swam, I just swam at the med school, which kinda sucks. I prefer to swim with a team. I swim harder that way.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Once again, I get most points (xcept for maybe why it's harder for middle class people who aren't white). But it just seems to call for more flexibility of a lot of systems.

Like employers being a bit more tolerant to people.
Or the New York school system, whichever way it's organised, taking these days into account and leaving them out of the count.

I assume (not knowing the situation, so correct me!!) that the schools students travel to a longer distance are the better ones, or otherwise they'd just go to one closer to them. (Special schools like for blind or disabled kids excepted) So surely the ones in most need of funding are those that the kids can walk to? (about half a mile to a mile for primary kids and up to 3 or 4 for those over 10 seems acceptable)

What I'm trying to say... I see it's a really crxp situation, but solutions for some problems really don't seem that hard (bureaucracy permitting).


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:nyc - can you explain how you calculated the figure of 26% for the wage increase the twu are demanding please.

on its own, a 26% rise in pay is ridiculous but it is not an isolated demand for a rise in pay and i think that oversimplification of the issues is not really that helpful to the discussion.

does it take into account for example the costs that the loss of benefits will incur or the difference that the contributions that workers are being asked to make to their pensions will impose?

or even the fact that extra responsibilities are being introduced to workers' contracts?

Written by: nyc

The people most drastically affected are children, the elderly, the poor and the handicapped.

I feel that they're being robbed so that the transit workers can get a raise.




i see it more as:

"the people most drastically affected are children, the elderly, the poor and the handicapped.

they are temporarily getting a bum deal because the mta want to hand off a permananent bum deal to 34000 new york city residents and workers who are absolutely essential to the running of the city."

shrug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

I prefer to swim with a team. I swim harder that way.



Hey, I thought we got yelled at for too many gay innuendos on HoP. eek

Back to the strike... I think that there's such a difference between ONE group of coal miners refusing to mine for coal until the conditions are improved and a complete monopoly of mass transit striking. It would be illegal for one company to own all of NYC transit (when they were public companies there were many competeing subway lines.) Anti trust laws prevent one company from becoming a monopoly so it's fine for one nonmonopolistic company to strike without destroying an economy. The fact that it IS a monopoly and it IS the only way to get anywhere in this city.

Birgit, do you mean "solutions for the problem of getting around New York City without any mass transit don't seem that hard"?

I will withhold my rage and try to explain it rationally since you may just be ignorant of the situation. New York City is separated into large zones of commercial space and residential space. Most people who live in Brooklyn (An island on the east side of the city) work in Manhattan (an island on the west side of the city) and commute many miles to work. This isn't a cute little european city where everyone can walk to the city center. There aren't enough jobs in Brooklyn for everyone to work near home. There aren't enough residential spaces in Manhattan for everyone to live near work.

As for the school system, Actually, I wrote a complete responce but I don't want to babble on about the structure and philospohy of the NYC public school system.

It might be fine in other parts of the world but having a child cross the Brooklyn Bridge in December at 7 in the morning to get to the closest school is inhumane. It is absolutley unreasonable to suggest that every child walk to school in subzero weather in New York City. Period.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:NYC, you completely misunderstood me, and your sarcasm is really unasked for. Thanks for withholding your rage though, I appreciate it.

Maybe next time, if you start a reply with a question, wait for the answer before lashing into me or someone else, or else look at your tone please. frown



Written by:
Birgit, do you mean "solutions for the problem of getting around New York City without any mass transit don't seem that hard"?





No. But a lot of problems arising from the strike could be dealt with by people acting sensibly towards each other, their employees etc. I wasn't saying ANYwhere that everyone could walk to work. By the way, it wouldn't work for cute European cities like London and Paris, either.



Written by:
As for the school system, Actually, I wrote a complete responce but I don't want to babble on about the structure and philospohy of the NYC public school system.





Fair enough. It's probably close enough to the German one to say that asking for them to make a sensible decision like the one I suggested is like trying to convince Bush of evolution.



Written by:
It might be fine in other parts of the world but having a child cross the Brooklyn Bridge in December at 7 in the morning to get to the closest school is inhumane. It is absolutley unreasonable to suggest that every child walk to school in subzero weather in New York City. Period.





I assumed schools would be in residential areas. This was where I said "correct me if I'm wrong", so thanks, though again the tone of your reply puts me off a bit. I kind of assumed that my post would be understood in a "wherever possible" way, and that you'd see me as sensible enough to not suggest small children walking through a dangerous place. Though subzero weather and 7 am on their own to me are no reason for not letting kids walk outside, for a reasonable distance - from own experience, if not in a city. Which was why I suggested this in response to your post, not knowing that schools were actually far away from where kids actually live.

EDITED_BY: Birgit (1135177157)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: NYC
Anti trust laws prevent one company from becoming a monopoly



Yeah right! that's what mr gates heard loud and clear!

--- BTW: is it presently that if one hasn't elephants skin, don't join social discussions? --- below zero in a number of threads here ---

De-centralisation was never the american way, now suffer the consequences! xcuseme...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"help! I'm freezing" - "shiver faster blanta**!"


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: FireTom

--- BTW: is it presently that if one hasn't elephants skin, don't join social discussions? --- below zero in a number of threads here ---




dunno... usually I get along well with NYC (I think), so I assume he just misunderstood me and is that p!ssed off with the situation and all its consequences that he has a go at me shrug

For climate in social discussions see the "hostility" thread smile


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Birgit,

1) I don't see anywhere in my post that I'm being sarcastic. Can you explain where I'm being sarcastic?

2) My rage is with the situation, not with you.

3) I thought my tone was serious but calm and focused.

Understandably, you were ignorant of the situation here (just as I have no clue as to what the situation would be in the UK or Germany) so I explained it to you as simply as I could.

Please explain to me where I lashed out or where my tone was inappropriate? I take accusations of both very seriously.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:pm on its way hug

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:being misunderstood sucks.

but being ignored makes me feel extra special wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: Birgit
For climate in social discussions see the "hostility" thread smile



where is that one? i neeeeeed to understand morrrr!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
26%proof is more to hay! and hips! than reasonable... hence you should by now know how the game works...
start at a 26% say "no way!" at a 16%, "maybe" at 12% and in the end you may end up with 6% over the next 20years... that's to break up the numbers...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

nyc - can you explain how you calculated the figure of 26% for the wage increase the twu are demanding please.




I have no idea what this sentence means so I will guess.

The TWU stated that they wanted a 26% increase. This is in a climate where city employees are given raises of 3% (consitered very small) to 6% (consitered very high.)

The national transit union has stated that what this local transit union has done is completely unreasonable. The transit union has turned down the best public contract offered (better than fire fighters, police, and teachers) and chose to strike.

I think I'm going to bow out of any political discussion. If anyone wants any actual information on the politics or specifics there are plenty of credible news stories out there.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Molly got me hooked on this site ... kinda funny, even funnier if you're a native.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:***Update from the street***

Holy crap. I've never seen the city like this. Everyone is flat out angry. People look perfectly willing to kill. The streets are a complete battle ground where taxis are absolutely going crazy because they can pick up as many people as they want and drop them off (hard to explain but if there is an entire street of taxis with three people in them they'll all cut across the street to pick up the fourth person in an attempt to destroy all competitors)...

The store owners are all standing in doorways and cursing. I won't even tell you what my buddy who owns the shop next door said... I'd get banned. wink

This is getting ugly. And it's only going to get uglier.

Cops are out in force but having little effect.

This city is in trouble. frown


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Just got off the phone with my brother. Turns out I'm wrong.

Take everything I said about the strike and flip it.

My bad.

Go union.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:?

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:Written by: NYC


Go union.



clap clap clap

here here

in today's mechanistic industrialist age, the union is more relevant to workers now than ever before... ubbrollsmile



onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: NYC


Just got off the phone with my brother. Turns out I'm wrong.



Take everything I said about the strike and flip it.



My bad.



Go union.





Written by: Doc Lightning


?





They've obviously got to him Doc. Looks like this goes way deeper than we thought eek smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

?



Yeah... my bad.

Every union in the city came out in support of the transit workers saying the city was trying to set a precident in illegally meddling with the pensions.

In other news, every avenue in New York is currently clogged with very very very angry motorists. I had to direct traffic on Broadway to prevent a taxi driver from getting lynched. This is NOT going to be a happy week.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:totally seriously, even the teacher's union?

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Yup...

Here is the article which shows the sticking point.

http://www.twulocal100.org/index.asp?Typ...8-2E730393238F}
br>
But for now I'm only thinking happy thoughts. This strike is stressing me out enough. I gotta figure out how to get to the airport to see my girlie on Saturday and that's way more important than any labor talks. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:damn man...

i tried pointing out that the wages were not the only or even the major issue but rather the changes to the pension scheme and the benefit program shrug

i alluded to that (thinking that people had done as i had and read both sides of the argument - i read the mta website, most of the stories on the twu site and a bunch of stories on national and local news sites) by trying to get you to offset the 'immoral' wage demands against the other changes to their contracts.

i challenged the 26% wage hike claim because i thought it was slightly misleading rather than presented as a figure representing their demands over the next three years, given that the pension and benefits scheme's would be changed as proposed.

but admittedly, i'm not in a city full of angry people with no way to get around in the run-up to christmas hug

good luck to all new york city crew over the holidays.

incidentally, it looks like the tube strike here in london is being scheduled for new years eve...


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Written by: Birgit
For climate in social discussions see the "hostility" thread smile



where is that one? i neeeeeed to understand morrrr!




It's in social chat, should be on the first 3 pages there... I'd link to it but I'm just about to go home smile


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

damn man...




Na yo, you came out ticky tackin' Lightning on weather Ralph Cramdon should be held responsible if little Suzie can't ride his bus to the hosptial. Though I agree with you that LEGALLY the striking bus driver would not be guilty of murder, MORALLY I think one would have more compassion for the situation. Then you started picking out isolated facts without suggesting any of your big picture opinion.

I blame the UNION for not getting their message out clearly.

The message is that "this proposed contract illegally affects pensions and would set a prescident for every city contract in every field in the future".

The first few press conferences the union leaders were trying to convince me that they wouldn't have enough money to feed their children which is crap. Especially since transit workers salary is above the AVERAGE salary in New York City.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:Every union is in support because they don't want the TWU to turn their backs when they're in need.

The support, says the NY Times today, is not exactly enthusiastic, though.

My union has stayed mum.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: NYC
I blame the UNION for not getting their message out clearly.



Really just the union, or also the quoters?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone's on a different road to the same destination" - NYC Cabdriver


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Um... what's a quoter?

I saw the initial speech given byToussaint and it wasn't nearly as coherent as the one he gave yesterday.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: NYC

Na yo, you came out ticky tackin' Lightning on weather Ralph Cramdon should be held responsible if little Suzie can't ride his bus to the hosptial. Though I agree with you that LEGALLY the striking bus driver would not be guilty of murder, MORALLY I think one would have more compassion for the situation. Then you started picking out isolated facts without suggesting any of your big picture opinion.



confused that's some selective reading you've been doing there sir...

my first comments in this thread included this:

Written by: coleman

i think we should realise that for every day they strike, they lose two days worth of pay?

industrial action is not generally something instigated for a reason like "we want more money".

it is more a case of "we are not happy with the proposed plan for pay and treatment of the workforce".

they are threatening to walk out over not only wages but over changes to the pensions and healthcare benefits systems that the mta have proposed (they want to try to save money by reducing the healthcare and pensions systems they offer to transit workers).



another of my posts pointed out that:

Written by: coleman

i think that making uwarranted changes to their pension, benefits and pay without proper union consultation was not a sensible move, and the mta (and nyc at large as a result) are paying the price for it today.



then i challenged your "they are asking for a 26% rise" statement cos i thought that it was extremely misleading, especially when i had already quoted a news source that stated the wage-related part of the dispute ("transit workers want 8 percent annual raises over three years, while the MTA has proposed 6 percent raises spread over 27 months").

at the very least, i didn't think that 3 times 8 added up to 26% but when i queried your calculation/sources you just said "I have no idea what this sentence means so I will guess" shrug

Written by: coleman

on its own, a 26% rise in pay is ridiculous but it is not an isolated demand for a rise in pay and i think that oversimplification of the issues is not really that helpful to the discussion.

does it take into account for example the costs that the loss of benefits will incur or the difference that the contributions that workers are being asked to make to their pensions will impose?

or even the fact that extra responsibilities are being introduced to workers' contracts?




but still, like i said, being ignored makes me feel extra special anyway wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


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