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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So New York City transit workers are planning to strike at midnight.

Now, having seen the contract they have (floor sweepers make $45k a year plus benes), I have little sympathy.

Furthermore, the transit system is essential for this city. Shutting it down will clog streets. It will make it very difficult for emergency vehicles to get around. It will be WAY more than an inconvenience.

I think for every death attributable to the strike, the union bosses should have to stand trial for one count of negligent homocide.

The cops don't strike, firefighters don't strike, doctors don't strike (and on the rare occasion that we do, we continue to provide emergency medical care), so I find this to be wholly inappropriate and unethical of the union. ESPECIALLY given the contracts they have.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Do you merely prefer that they voluntarily not go on strike for moral reasons, or would you actually be in favor of the government forcing them to go back to work?

I tend not to like strikes led by organized labor, but as a principle I want people to be free to work or not to work. If they are not free to quit, they are slaves.

While it may be reprehensible, I cannot at this point advocate the government forcing them to work. If it is truly important, I might approve of bringing in the military or other government workers to fill the position (as I believe was done when air traffic controllers went on strike). Oh yeah, and fire every worker that goes on strike, then never allow them to have a government job ever again. The best way to balance freedom to quit is with freedom to fire.

My guess is that organized labor still has too much per$ua$ive power in government to expect the local politicians to do anything, and I don't know that the issue is big enough to justify federal involvement (although transportation in NY seems to be right on the edge).


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:What are their reasons/greivances for calling the strike?

And, to help those of us in the UK, what is $45K worth- to put it in perspective what does, say, a doctor get annually in NYC, or a teacher?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:You can live on $45k in New York, as an individual you could live a pretty nice life. As a family, you could afford enough. New York's expensive but its not the SF Bay Area, where cheap places to rent don't exist and you usually work nowhere near where you live.

I can't say what doctors and teachers in the city might make, altho I don't get the impression that all of the teachers there are well paid, but to give you some perspective Teachers and University employees (Thats Masters degree minimum for the work) in nearby CT (which is essentially, altho not actually, a suburb of New York) would tend to make $34-$37k, And $42-$46/$48k, respectively. On the other hand, you'd expect a doctor to be making $70k-$100k (I could be a little low as I've a better idea of what veterinarians are making) and Transit workers to make like $30k Altho I suspect that they might be a little better paid as they often have very good unions. Comparitively, federal minimum wage employees make about $10,300... (You can't live on that anywhere!).

I'd be interested to see how the scale changes once you're in the city... and note, please, that none of my figures are for first/second year of employment, which is typhically quite a bit lower....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Do they have reasons other than financial for striking?

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:No, it's pretty financial.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a union member myself and I'm very pro-union.

But I provide an essential service, just like transport workers do. What they are doing is illegal. And it's unethical. People will DIE if there is a strike.

So far they aren't striking and it appears that trains will continue to run all weekend.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i think we should realise that for every day they strike, they lose two days worth of pay?

industrial action is not generally something instigated for a reason like "we want more money".

it is more a case of "we are not happy with the proposed plan for pay and treatment of the workforce".

they are threatening to walk out over not only wages but over changes to the pensions and healthcare benefits systems that the mta have proposed (they want to try to save money by reducing the healthcare and pensions systems they offer to transit workers).

the sticking point on the wages is specifically that: "transit workers want 8 percent annual raises over three years, while the MTA has proposed 6 percent raises spread over 27 months".

disagreeing with this is fair enough i reckon shrug

mike is definitely right that it is illegal in ny state for public workers to strike but they have little other recourse as far as i can see.


i think it is quite a stretch to say that its unethical for them to strike because 'a strike would increase the dangers on the road transport system and hence increase the risks of injury on those roads' and then go on claim that the people dying from rta's over that weekend died as a direct result of industrial action.

holding the union accountable for those deaths is even less logical to my mind - it is not the job of public transport workers to redcuce the number of accidents on the road.

why is it not the government who is accountable for those extra deaths because the public transport system failed and the state is ultimately responsible for running it.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So, Cole, it's OK, then for doctors to strike?

Imagine if in London all transit services, buses, subways, everything...just stopped.

It's really essential. People won't be able to get to hospitals, including doctors. And that's only one part of the problem.

There are other recourses available, such as partial strikes or slowdowns.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:is it okay for doctors to strike imo?

no, because the benefits and pay doctors receive are not decided in the same way that transport workers are - doctors have more courses of action available to them if their employer proposes unacceptable changes to their benefits and unacceptable plans for pay increases - they could threaten to quit and move to another hostpital for example.

however, we weren't talking about doctors...


tube strikes in london are not unusual and life manages to go on.

i admit, this is a much bigger thing in nyc than it is in london due to the fact that more people use the mta and the mta constitutes both bus and metro services.

but i do agree with the use of industrial action when employers propose unacceptable plans and refuse to compromise - if the transport workers are willing to break the law, risk their jobs and lose money over this, i conclude that they must feel pretty strongly about the issues.

i don't think the threat of partial strikes or slowdowns affect their employers enough to make a difference, hence the threat of a full strike.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Kyrian

I can't say what doctors and teachers in the city might make, altho I don't get the impression that all of the teachers there are well paid, but to give you some perspective Teachers and University employees (Thats Masters degree minimum for the work) in nearby CT (which is essentially, altho not actually, a suburb of New York) would tend to make $34-$37k, And $42-$46/$48k, respectively. On the other hand, you'd expect a doctor to be making $70k-$100k (I could be a little low as I've a better idea of what veterinarians are making) and Transit workers to make like $30k Altho I suspect that they might be a little better paid as they often have very good unions. Comparitively, federal minimum wage employees make about $10,300... (You can't live on that anywhere!).




As always Kyrian is completely wrong. wink Teachers start around 30K and slowly progress upwards. Veteran teachers in suburbs outside of NYC can easily make 100K. Administrators in the 200K range. Veteran doctors in private practice make far, far, far higher than 100K.

There was some interesting data on the comparison between the salary of a New York City train operator as opposed to other train operators in the surrounding areas.

There is also a LONG story of the MTA losing a billion dollars, lying about it, claiming that they were in dept, etc... There's also the dumbest plan ever to lower subway fares for two weeks since they all of a sudden found all of these millions of dollars.

There's LOTS more to the story which one might have missed if... say... they'd only moved to the city a few months ago. wink

ubbangel


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Then again, I've never been to a city that would be more completely devistated by a transit strike than NYC. A transit strike would have had a greater impact on the infrastructure of the city than 9/11.

Oh, and they didn't strike. They'll be doing partial strikes here and there over the next little while. But I'm sure that Lightning will tell you all about it. wink


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by: NYC

Written by: Kyrian

I can't say what doctors and teachers in the city might make, altho I don't get the impression that all of the teachers there are well paid, but to give you some perspective Teachers and University employees (Thats Masters degree minimum for the work) in nearby CT (which is essentially, altho not actually, a suburb of New York) would tend to make $34-$37k, And $42-$46/$48k, respectively. On the other hand, you'd expect a doctor to be making $70k-$100k (I could be a little low as I've a better idea of what veterinarians are making) and Transit workers to make like $30k Altho I suspect that they might be a little better paid as they often have very good unions. Comparitively, federal minimum wage employees make about $10,300... (You can't live on that anywhere!).




As always Kyrian is completely wrong. wink



Just for anyone who's not used to NYC(the person), I would like to point out I said nothing about NYC(the city) except that you could live on $45k/year. I was just giving some reference points for UK people, albeit not strictly useful ones...

I did figure there was more to the story, there always is. Lowering subway fares for two weeks tho... thats.... *laughs* THAT one I hadn't heard about.....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I thought you said that in CT teachers would make $34K-37K. Which is wrong.

Oh wait... you did. tongue

In CT teachers would max out between 80K and 120K depending on the district.


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:eek

I have some teachers who would like to talk to you about that!!!

Wow.

I can't imagine thats true for all districts, (well obviously) but it would seem like if it was even most than how would the other schools get away with offering so much less????!

But I've gone off topic. Keep us updated on the transit situation- altho I'll be there soon enough myself and thus get to expirience it in all its wonder tongue


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:The MTA board is packed with liars and union busters. Some of them should be in prison for fraud.

The TWU is known as the Totally Worthless Union to many of its MEMBERS. And EIGHT PERCENT PER YEAR? Guaranteed for THREE YEARS? I have NEVER gotten a raise like that, not even in the strongest boom periods.

The MTA insists on changing benefits for new employees. This is a union-busting tactic that became popular in the 1980s. Once a union has different classes of members, it's doomed. The TWU seems to realize that.

The TWU has offered to reduce its wage demand if the MTA reduces disciplinary actions against its members. Well, wouldn't that be smart for the MTA to accept? The more TWU members act out, the more they ALL get paid!

In other words, everyone involved is crazy and negotiating in bad faith. I'd say "a plague on both your houses" if so many New Yorkers, all powerless to affect the outcome, weren't at risk of being caught in the middle.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:They're striking the private bus lines, which are legal. The illegal (public) strike might happen as early as Tuesday, which gives plenty of time...for sane people.

In other words they're not violating the Taylor Law just yet.

Just heard on the radio that the private strike hasn't actually started yet.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well said Xopher. Both sides are pretty disgusting and neither seem to be actually helping the individual workers. Looking forward to seeing how the chaos plays out. And, of course, any action would kill the christmas sales and destroy any money that the MTA would be making over this extremely lucrative pre-christmas period anyway.

It's all just a PR game of chicken anyway.

Written by: Kyrian

eek

I have some teachers who would like to talk to you about that!!!




The lowest I've ever heard of any teacher starting today is about 28K but that goes WAY up over years of teaching and with experience. I started in one of the lowest paying districts of the lowest paying states (california) ten years ago at about $26 but rose quickly. I'm now WAY above that. There's a huge difference between what a teacher gets paid first year and what they get paid fifteeth year with 60 units of inservice classes. My Dad was up around 100K when he retired from a GHETTO school in Brooklyn. If you know a lot of first year teachers then yeah, they should be making around 30 but the older teachers are making much more. ESPECIALLY in CT.


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Nah, more specifically I know tenured teachers in CT... and they arn't making much! At last count it was still $37k..... That was only about two years ago.

Interetsing to know that you can make money teaching tho! Perhaps its not such a bad idea... still woulndt quite work out for me tho tongue

... And thats a really good point NYC. A Holiday strike would be really... interetsing.

People in power, seldom care about the people they "represent"... once theyve been there a bit


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:There's a big difference between tenured (which means after 3 years in most cases) and 10-15 year vets. $37 sounds right for 3-5 years.



The AFT (American Federation of Teachers Union) claims the average salary in the 2003-04 school year was $46,597. That sounds about right.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:

There's a big difference between tenured (which means after 3 years in most cases) and 10-15 year vets. $37 sounds right for 3-5 years.



The AFT (American Federation of Teachers Union) claims the average salary in the 2003-04 school year was $46,597. That sounds about right.



That PDF link on that page is pretty cool (see the above AFT link)... shows average salaries.



The trick with teachers is "vs. comperable professions"... so for the same amount of schooling, I could be making a lot more.



Some random salaries from that site:

Full Professor: 95K

Attorney: 90K

Engineer: 78K

Teacher: 47K

Computer System Analist: 75K

Accountant: 56K

Assistant Professor: 49K



SO... With the schooling I had I COULD have gone into Engineering or Accounting and made more money. But I'd rather play with kids and have 180 days off. wink



Before you yell at me for being off topic... I think it leads nicely into the salary of train conductor discussion.



UNFORTUNATELY, the numbers above are NATIONAL averages. In and around NYC the numbers would be much higher since the cost of living is so much higher.



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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:And HA! CT has the HIGHEST average teacher salary in the COUNTRY of $57K!!!! (STARTING at 34K!!) That's the highest paid state possible!!!!



How are you SO wrong ALL the time? ubblol


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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:I just found out that they divided the city into cab zones....when did this happen?! eek



That means that now instead of taking a cab ride from place to place, they will actually only do circuits within certain city blocks eek and it becomes vastly more expensive to get from place to place



now to get back on topic

45K for the city can support one; but surely a lot of the workers have families


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: fireNice

I just found out that they divided the city into cab zones....when did this happen?! eek




IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!! Dude, calm. Turn on the TV. It's all good. ubblol


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by: NYC

And HA! CT has the HIGHEST average teacher salary in the COUNTRY of $57K!!!! (STARTING at 34K!!) That's the highest paid state possible!!!!

How are you SO wrong ALL the time? ubblol



I knew CT was supposed to be the highest in the country (In part because I think they're the only state to require a masters degree to teach ... at the state level. ) Nonetheless... again... figures I have don't support this. Preplexed? I am. Very. And New York is more expensive than, say, kansas... but still much better than bay area california smile

And firenice, who on earth do you know that can support a family on one salary these days? I mean yes, doctors bankers and engineers... but after that? The rest of the population?

Although, having said this, I'm thinking it has a lot more to do with how people spend money than the actual amount of money involved.....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So no strike yet.

Now, here are some things that I think are unreasonable on the part of the TWU.

1) Free health insurance with no copay.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way in this country, and I don't think it should. YES, I think health insurance should be free, but I am a strong believer in nominal copays. ESPECIALLY for emergency room visits. I have seen more patients on medicare (which is free and has no copays) horribly abuse the system. I mean, EMS bringing children to the ED for ear infections and nose colds. A simple $5 or $10 copay for an ED visit (my copay for an ED visit, as a working physician, is $50) would make patients think twice before showing up in the ED for anything other than an emergency.

But in the US copays are the norm. And I believe in nominal copays simply to make patients think twice before they abuse the system.

2) 8% raise a year.

A 3% raise a year is pretty standard all over the country. They want over 250% of this. That's absurd.

3) Retirement with full pension and benefits after 20 years of service or age 50. The current rule is 25 years of service and age 55. MTA wants to make it 62 and 30 years, TWU wants it down to 50 and 20. That's stupid. That means that if I start working for the MTA at 30 I can retire at 50? In this day and age, nobody should be retiring at 50.

The union is saying that they'll refuse binding arbitration. At this rate they aren't going to have much sympathy from New Yorkers.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:ah being up in beantown has taken me away from the real world for too long

I heard about the cabs from Firebird when she was up in Boston yesterday and was shocked and confused. I'd watch the TV up here but its all Red Sox this and Patriots that *shiver*

and kyrian, its not just those professions that you name that can support a family; there are a lot more variables covered by what you call "how people spend money than the actual amount of money involved" most specifically where they live and whether they have the option to choose buy luxury goods or not


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I agree with Lighting... the TWA is struggling to gain sympathy.

Next week should be interesting.

Oh... and for those not in the know, nothing's supposed to happen until Tuesday when they do a partial strike if nothing gets resolved.


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JayKitty
JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey
Member Since: 7th Nov 2004
Total posts: 534
Posted:I have to agree with Lightining on the retirment issue. I've been helping my father run his own business since i was 13. He didn't even START this until he was 50. He's got some back issues and most of the work involved is heavy lifting. He's pushing 60 now and even though I've helped, retiring at 50 is insane.

I remember seeing that reduced subway fair last time I was in the city, what exactly is all that about? I've caught bits and pieces about the strike, but nothing about that.


Don't mind me, just passing through.

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:They're asking too much, Doc, so they can be bargained down to something reasonable. And the MTA is trying to make them have two classes of members - with the new ones having less benefits. This is a union-busting tactic; eventually the union breaks into factions, since they in fact have different needs.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well first the MTA offered them a 3% raise over one year, then a 6% raise over 2 years... then a 9% raise over 3 years.

Isn't that basically the cost of living adjustment anyway?!

Still chaos. See what happens Tuesday.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Is there anyone legible to demand more in the corporate world?

Welcome to the 21st century!


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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