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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > help with tangles / air wraps

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Page: 12
zenferno


newbie


Total posts: 4
Posted:Hello All,
I need help with tangles. I've been working on them for several months and have gotten better, but it is still a random thing and I need some advice.

What makes the poi wrap around eachother and then unwrap? ...instead of simply wrapping around eachother into a big mess? Is there a specific move, angle, pressure, etc. that I am missing? confused

I've tried fast and slow, long and short chains, lifting one hand or the other, but they still get wrapped up and stuck about 50% of the time. I'm dying to add these moves to my routines, but have to get them working 100%.

It seems to work the best if I'm spinning the poi in front of me, relatively slowly, with some isolation to the spin, and longer chains.

If I don't have enough information here, respond and ask.

ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED.

zen


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zenferno


newbie


Total posts: 4
Posted:sorry hookers. didn't see what forum I was in.

will move this to the right place.

-z-


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Heya - i made a tutorial which is available in the library section up-top or on YouTube (Search "DurbsBT" )

As for why they do/don't un-wrap:

The poi can meet at various angles, though i'd try to limit them (at first) to between 20-45 degrees - this also makes them fit in more naturally with normal spinning as it doesn't require major plane-breaks to get into an airwrap.

I always emphasise the lack of effort involved in airwraps - They work themselves, once you've made the tangle, really resist tugging or yanking them at all. The speed "burst" you see in them is just the shorter point of rotation, and again, until you're happy with them just let the poi use their own momentum to un-twist themselves.
Yanking them makes it more likely for the poi to end up at different speeds which means they're more likely to tangle up.

Also, make sure they're tangling at the same place on each other. Depending on the length of your poi, they can actually tangle at most points between the head and the handle, but they need to be symmetrical - as an extreme, you can't airwrap the head-end of one poi around the handle-end of the other.
Again, this is due to the speed increase when you change the point of rotation - taking the above example, the poi tangling by the head will move much faster than the one tangled by the handle, so it effectively tries to overtake the other poi and they won't untangle.
As a starting point, just try and tangle them at the middle of the poi, or slightly towards the head.

It's much easier with most kind of poi except tails

smile


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:For what it is worth, that video tut is very good.

Consider this a public thanks Durbs. smile

re: yanking: yanking with chains also eventually strips any covering on the metal. It seems to have done that to my practice poi at least.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:To follow up on Durbs' lack of effort comment, try using bigger poi if you can get your hands on them.

My standard practice poi are 3/4 of a cup of rice and my big ones are 1 full cup of rice... the heavier poi really emphasize what the poi are doing as well as (In my opinion) putting more momentum into the spin, though it might be an illusion created by this emphasis... all the same its worthwhile.

Speaking of worthwhile, durbs' video is good. :P Its what taught me airwraps... but I already did know how to do hyperloops, perhaps entering it into a buzzsaw plane and coming out the other side could be an approach to help you to get it to start with, then work back to the airwrap?

Good luck, zenferno.


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:I also got the hyperloop first.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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NathanielEverist
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

NathanielEverist

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 315
Posted:Wow, you guys got hyper loops before airwraps? I used airwraps as an entry method into hyperloops, so we differ on that one, lol.

Although Durbs' tutorial is awesome, I'm going to throw mine into to mix, as it approaches the move a little differently, and although I may not be as handsome or cool as him, maybe I'll mention something he doesn't in his tutorial that will help you out.







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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I'd been pretty much ignoring airwraps/hyperloops up until last week for a couple of reasons. The first being my natural aversion to following any sort of trend ( lame, I know ) and the second being my feeling that, when I watched these moves on video they looked rather "contrived' By that I mean I'd see the wallplane circles, sometimes for several beats that seemed to announce " here it comes, I'm going to do an airwrap/hyperloop" and somehow it seemed anti climatic when it finally happened.

Anyways...I dealt with all that and decided to learn them last week.

Surprisingly, it only took me about five minutes to do my first successful airwrap and within about a half hour I had them in both directions. Of course, I find one direction "easier" than the other but having learned from past experience just how limiting only learning a move in one direction actually is, I managed to strengthen the weak one so it's pretty much as reliable as my preferred direction. I'm still only looking about 75% reliability with socks though, and chains has me down to about 40% reliability.

Hyperloops are still weak though as I'm having to deal with a loss of momentum in my lower poi when I end the move and have only been able to deal with this by completing my turn and ending up back in wall plane facing the other direction.

Cheers to Durbs for that excellent tutorial, and especially that "let it happen" comment without which, I never would have come to grips with these things.

NathanielEverist, I quite liked your tutorials too, It's just that I watched Durbs' first and didn't see yours until the next day. I really appreciated your explanation of how these things actually work especially that bit about "move your arms like this..."

One thing i have noticed though, is the "double ones" that Durbs mentions in his tutorial. I've inadvertently done this several times and I'm getting the feeling that these are something I should avoid. Am I wrong here ? Should I work on making these doubles stronger ? Or abandon them completely thinking of them as mistakes instead ?


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Heya, Stout...

I dunno what you mean by contrived so much, but I havent seen that many other people whirl... I tend to do my hyperloops coming out of spins or from a waistwrap or whatever else, because I found I accidently tangled up there if I whirled around too fast and then made it into a hyperloop instead... That might help you conquer that idea if you actually start to really play with em.

The doubles don't AVOID doing them but certainly make sure you can do the singles if you wanna do the singles and the doubles if you wanna do the doubles.

Its exactly the same principle as extra turns in your hyperloop, infinite hyperloops, in fact you'll probably notice that Durbs has turned his body out to the front a bit more as he was demonstrating the "dramatic" single hand lead in, so that'd probably be why he ended up doing the double, being used to multiple turns in his hyperloops... it probably felt like a hyperloop to his hands.

But yeah, half of that is irrelevant.

I wouldnt avoid the doubles... unless you think that it would inhibit your free play, but that depends on your style, doesnt it?


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hi MNS.,,by contrived, i mean there was a few wallplane beats that served as a set up, if you will, for the AW, exactly like I'm doing now with being new to these things. I'd offer up a reference or two, but I really can't remember which videos I saw this in and I've watched nearly every video that's been posted to this site.

I've been working on just how to get into these from something that isn't wallplane circles, and I came up with "dropping " down into an AW from a windmill, and continuing to drop into a crouch while the AW is "happening"...and there was something else, but I can't remember what it was, hopefully I'll rediscover it today.

In thinking about the doubles, I figure I'm not as "enthused" about them as I was 24 hours ago as I'm finding AWs similar to spiral wraps and by keeping the AWs to singles, I have something that works as a really fast tiny circle which I can contrast with the slower SW.

Would an infinite hyperloop be the same as an orbital ? or super duper uber loop ? That's where I want to go next, orbitals, but I figure, I'll sit on that idea until the weather changes to rainy and I'll have something to work on indoors.


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:*spanner into worx*

i actually think both the tutorials (durbs and nathaniels) are good, but misleading. although they explain how to do a single wrap well, they both use a fairly hefty (to my eyes) plane break(will explain in a mo) to get back to do a second one (even though durbs*, and indeed most people don't realise they are doing it!)

funnily enough, it doesn't actually matter, if all you want to do is do a basic airwrap. however, if you want to do airwraps everywhere and feel comfortable about them, i think its important to learn about the planes of airwraps.

basically meaning that if you watch a slowed down airwrap (out-in, which is most peoples natural one) from above, you see it moves across the line between your hands. so if you come back to do a second airwrap in a single beat, you have to break plane. its not obvious, and like i said, unimportant to most. if, however, you let the poi make a rotation in their new plane, you can return the poi to their original line by doing an in-out wrap.

so, you end up with two basic wraps instead of one - an in-out, and an out-in; even better is that you gain a better understanding of how to wrap your poi at any moment from any angle, rather than needing to be in a certain place. its then pretty easy to move the actual location of the wrap to several different places, ie. between the legs, behind the back, btb waistwrap (either side), behind the head, from side to side, coming over the shoulder, stepping over, etcetc. mucho fun, and conveniently also getting rid of a lot of the contrivedness that you see in a lot of airwrapping.


make sense....?

grin
R


* lol2


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:If I understand correctly, bluecat, I think I alluded to this in my post...

Could it be said that the poi do not change plane relative to the body necessarily, but do change plane relative to the arms? Essentially what it means is that it passes through the gap of the arms, making it technically a buzzsaw plane as relative to the arms, but if held in the same position, it makes it still appear to be in the wall plane as relative to the body while having very little technical difference from actually being in a buzzsaw plane?


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:um... kind of.

lol2

(am i alone in really not liking the new LOL icon?)

as you say, it's pretty irrelevant where the poi are in relation to the body, its the hands that are important.

but i'm specifically talking about learning how to cross the hand-hand plane from both sides, not just the one, which is what most people do.

grin


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Well look, bluecat... I don't get it, I'll admit that... but my poi get it, so I'll leave it up to them, they haven't got an angle they've really stumbled over on tangling with one another (clean planes while doing so is a slightly different story, but thats something to sort out. ^_^)


I'll think about what you've said in my practice sessions with tangles and we'll see if it ends up clicking... if it does I'll see if I can spout a different way of explaining it in here...

EDITED_BY: Mother_Natures_Son (1220365939)


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Bluecat...i hadn't thought about the in/out, out in, but now that you mention it it makes perfect sense.

It may explain why, after I've done a hyperloop, I find myself in a somewhat awkward position...inverted, with long poi.


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:or i could be less lazy and film what i mean.....

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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animatEd
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK

Total posts: 3540
Posted:I till have to re do the tutorial I made years ago in the lessons section to include both in-out and out-in versions of airwraps after Rob pointed it out to me a long times ago.

Rob, Once we're both in Bristol, fancy collaborating on lots of video?

offtopic I too prefer the old lol2


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Yes. Both of you go to Bristol. Create lots of videos... many, many a video.

...after considering it, I think i've worked out what you're on about... but maybe not.

Is it about the same sort of mechanics that allow you to escape from an infinite hyperloop? (Out-in is the position of the poi relative to your hands... right?)


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Bluecat: I think I get what you mean. Do not think that I do it though.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:Apologies for everyone who just wanted to learn an airwrap - the tutorials above are fine for that - this is a bit more geek theory tongue2 but does feel slightly off topic...

so

its the same thing. in that you have to be aware of where your hands are, and so on. here's a basic diagram (64 seconds basic laugh3 )


Non-Https Image Link

where black circles are hands, orange circles are poi heads.

when you enter an airwrap (position A) the poi tangle, then move through to position B, untangle, and exit. It doesn't matter how 'straight' your wrap looks/feels, they physically cannot do it another way. right? if you always enter from position A, that means you have to plane-break the poi back from B to A. like i said, this can seem irrelevant, but IMO it does make it easier to learn other stuff.

so, as you spin in wall plane, position B is from inside your hands, close to your body. and when you enter a wrap there, you move from inside to outside (back to position A). hence my use of 'in-out'. and if you get this one comfy, its the one that will help. and in general its the theory and understanding that seems to help most of all.

in a multibeat tangle (what you are calling an infinite hyperloop)... actually, here's a similar diagram.

Non-Https Image Link


you enter (usually but not necessarily) in wheel plane in position A, with one hand in front of the other. you move your hands to position B, and go! this is the position for orbitals (nicks superuberdooperloops) and any (even) number of multibeats. you then move your hands to position C and exit.

note that A and C are exactly the same as A and B from the basic airwrap, just at right angles.....

helpful?

I'm taking you up on that, Ed. like you wouldn't believe. mwahahahahaha!


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Yip, I did understand. Must work on this I think.

Thanks.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Thanks bluecat, I did get it... and did the whole time, I just thought it was more complex than it really was.

hug

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Thanks bluecat, I also understood what you were talking about but somehow figured that the in/out method must be somehow "wrong" or "least preferred after watching Nathaniel's tutorial where he says..."move your arms like this"

I didn't get a chance to practice these yesterday as I was really into just having a spin instead and once I pulled off a weave--> 90deg turn into an airwrap--> continue turn to rev weave...seamlessly. I didn't want to jinx the whole thing by trying it again.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Woot...I keeping the in/out, out in idea in mind< i got those continuous airwraps going yesterday. I'm finding the in/out considerably more difficult to consciously do than the out/in because I've noticed that if my same direction wallplane circles are going to go off, they go off in directions suited to the out/in.

I see the wisdom of practicing both, as I'm thinking that bringing a poi ( or both ) brom wallplane behind you flows "better" into the in/out if you want to go straight from the plane swithch into assembling an airwrap.


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:woop! ace. thats exactly what i meant to happen grin

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hey..I got the air wraps happening in "causal spinning" yesterday and managed to pull them off without the couple of beats of set up that I mentioned earlier.

Thanks to G's video, I also got the horizontal version going ( never thought of doing them from the CS ) but with shortened chains. I'm thinking in/out out/in becomes up/down down/up when going horizontal and I could only get the down/up happening yesterday. I'll work more on the up/down today.


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squid
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted:The up/down should actually be easier since you will have gravity working for you. At least, it was for me.

"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Horizontal stuff is pretty fun.

Nowhere near consistent though....


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I've got the horizontal tangles going pretty easily when coming from the bottom to the top, but no other way is as consistent yet...

hug

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:One would think the up down would be easier, I tried it the next day and didn't have any success with it. The up down just somehow feels more "natural"

Are these air wraps or hyperloops ?

I'm still sticking to my original play and reserving spending time with these until the weather turns ugly. I'm usually doing my spinning with full length chains and i know now I can do tangles with my chains but the horizontals and hyperloops feel better with shorter (one hand wrap) chains.

So I'll go for the short socks with these, seeing as how my low ceiling doesn't give me too many options for spinning patterns indoors.

I'll just keep working on those butterfly hybrid things as pulling these things off well is proving to be a challenge.


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Mine tend to go through a buzzsaw plane, so mine are hyperloops... havent tried just air wraps in horizontal... Hmm... I'll attempt this.

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Page: 12

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