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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:I've been looking through old threads for a while, digging in all sorts of interesting topics. Along the way, I keep coming across statements like "oh if you think so-and-so is good, you haven't seen nothing" and "anybody who's REALLY good hasn't got the time or the interest to enter COL", "nobody who's REALLY good comes around HoP" or, often from the more famous members, "oh I'm really just starting, I've seen so MANY people so much better than me it's sick"

So if these elusive-yet-plentiful-yet-never-seen mythical figures of Insanely Spectacularness aren't on any of the video compilations, don't have websites, don't participate in any forums, and don't have up any online videos.... where the hell ARE they, then? They certainly aren't in movies. Did they all run off and join some circus in Siberia or what?


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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Jo
Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 517
Posted:Masters do not exist.



Just apprentices ranging between 0% and 2% perfection.



Jo. smile

EDITED_BY: Jo (1109536447)


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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Lol, some of the really good people I met (when I was travelling) were just travelling around themselves and never found time to use a computer.

Others had their own businesses or troupes and didn't need to publicise their spinning abilities.

Either way, it meant that when I accidentally met them in various places it somehow felt a bit more special and I felt even more pleased (or honoured?!) to meet them than I would have if I'd just looked them up on a video or hunted them down through this website.

Travel is the best way to meet people.


Getting to the other side smile

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:lol i think lots of those comments are my sticks bigger than yours based ubblol

ill let u in on a secret submitting an entry to col makes a mythical master real, becoming real makes you flawed. then theres ppl who do if for joy and not competition. i have met a couple of ppl on my journeys who are "masters" and they are the most humble out of everyone simply because they can see everything that is wrong with what they are doing, that and they dont like all the hyped up attention because ppl treat them differently because of their mythical status when really they are just normal people like you or me.

im wondering how many of the movies have u watched cos theres some insane stuff online if u look hard enough ....


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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dafunkymahn
member

Member Since: 30th Jan 2005
Total posts: 54
Posted:Written by:
lol i think lots of those comments are my sticks bigger than yours based



You would think that when it came to fire, those with the shorter sticks have the bragging rights because they are closer to the fire. wink


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ImmortalAngel
Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 19th Jan 2004
Total posts: 578
Posted:Did you not see that recent juggling video someone had posted?
Or the juggling convention videos and such?
Those are where the masters are wink


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:If these 'masters' are out there, and if they're already humble, then isn't it a GOOD thing if they become real and actually let people see them?

Why deprive beginners and hobbyists and people just interested in the art from the chance to SEE what the really good stuff looks like? I'm not talking showing off here, I mean just... documentation, inspiration, proof, talent as a gift to the community.

If they're well known enough to not need any hype for their professional troupes, then why does nobody seem to know who they are and why are they never specifically mentioned? Why has nobody said 'OH MY GOD THAT'S AMAZING!!' and gone after them with a video camera and put a clip up?

Being good is no excuse to permanently hide under a rock dammit!!


ImmortalAngel -- That's... really, really vague. What juggling video? I've seen several, all posted by 'someone'. Most featured juggling, not poi.. seeing as how they were juggling videos.


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Maybe it's because not everyone is lucky or rich enough to have access to a video camera and somewhere that'll host the video.

I'd suggest going through the video section and reading through the first posts in as many threads as you can. If they're all along the lines of 'oh my god that's fantastic', then download the video. There's alot of incredable stuff shown in the videos here.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:i dont know what you consider a master, but here are some examples of ppl ive seen on videos from HoP (i apologize if i make anyone blush wink) olive from france is featured in the video 'olive in the vondelpark' (sorry dont know how to make a link and all that jazz, im just an ordinary guy) in the famous dutch thread under events performances and gatherings. now theres some pretty insane poi-ing imo.
knox and ben-ja-men and mcp are also some of the best staffers ive seen.. and try glass.
then again gnarly cranium, i dont know what level youre at either, so master is relative.

there are some examples of ppl whom i think are the 'masters' on hop. if naming ppl was uncalled for, ill be glad to delete this post.


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Right.



Ive been around for a bit, and I also know some of the sickest, skillfull, craziest, nicest masters of object manipultion.



*Warning: Ego boost coming up*

I consider people like Glass, Bluecat and the artist formerly known as PoiPoiPoi, amongst others, are the masters.



You first line also says it all. "In old threads". Exactly.

This board has changed sooo much (even more than I know seeing as im only member #1881). I see many many people come and go. Whcih I think is a shame.



Back on track: As those threads were old, many of the "masters" have made videos, yet have improved all the time.



And there are future masters among us still..... it just depends how quickly and in how many ways you can see your props. You know im right.



smile

EDITED_BY: Unattractive Cranky Old Freud (1109535349)


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Skulduggery
Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales
Member Since: 12th Aug 2004
Total posts: 8428
Posted:Some people don't spin for the fact that others come to watch them or to teach others. They just spin for themselves. People have a right to not be filmed and not be on-line and to live spinning just for themselves.

If your premiss for this thread is that you don't believe there are any Masters then define what a master is. I think everyone, even the very best spinners, can get better and learn or find new moves. People that are better spinners than me that can teach me something are my masters as long as they are teaching. Once the lesson is over they are a fellow spinner once more.


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:My thoughts-

* as already mentioned, not everyone has access to online storeage space or access to digital filiming equipment

(I know this from experience; very few of my movies are now online due to the fact that I don't have money to spare to pay for a dedicated web host space, and I'm not willing to put them on my website because I don't want it going down due to 'exceeded bandwidth)

* Some people who are very good don't like posting movies as they don't want their innovative stuff open to being copied.

* I also suspect that some of the talk of these 'hidden masters' tends to be exagerated- for example, this effect could naturally occur as follows: -

several of the spinners in your group may be absolutely superb, but, as they're always around you get a little used to their moves; then you go traveling and are blown away by a complete stranger doing moves that aren't necessarily more complex than those of the preceeding group, but, cos they've not be seen before, their mastery is exagerated.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:The one true "master" I've felt like I've met at spinning fire poi told me that the one way to know if you're good is if you keep dancing even when no one else is around to care.



And all other truly "good" people I meet are humble, don't talk of their "skillz" and whotnot.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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Adrillf
Adrillf

member
Location: UT
Member Since: 8th Feb 2005
Total posts: 112
Posted:Some good people are still around and posting, it's just their videos and the proof that you're looking for is REALLY hard to find and you have to hunt around on the net for quite some time just to see a short clip of them.

With that, I've also noticed that alot of the 'good' people just stay in the background. They'll go online and see what is going on but they'll only add in their two cents if it's a very important topic to them.

They're watching.


missegyptology: I'm gonna be a terrorist when I grow up anyway

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Haha ~ Adrillf you hit the nail on the head

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:when you say 'good' , do you mean good at spinning or good at posting?

umm

spinning I presume.


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:If there's a master here, i haven't met them, and they probably just poke in once in a while. It's possible.

Yes i've said this before. I've been spinning 9 years, 9 solid years. and i'm an intermediate. anybody who thinks they are a master may feel the connection to movement which comes with mastery, and indeed they are a master in that moment, but to me master means more than that, and i infer tfrom your thread that what you mean isn't "connected spinning" but "the pinnacle of possibility." For instance there's an old guy in Israel spinnin for like 30 years who spins 6 poi at once and makes it look like he's pickin his nose. There's a guy in NZ who's been spinning 20 years whose poi are like animals crawling all over his body. It's the ultimate hubris to think that after a couple years and some hyperloops you got off the net that you are at the top. notions of top dissolve if you gain some perspective, and here's yet another attempt to give us all some.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:Gnarley -



AlI can say, is that its worthwhile going travelling, and meeting and talking to spinners all over the place. You will get a better perspective if you do.



Edit -



I think everyone has the potential to achieve mastery over themselves.



Josh

EDITED_BY: Josh (1109547476)


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: arashi

........For instance there's an old guy in Israel spinnin for like 30 years who spins 6 poi at once and makes it look like he's pickin his nose.........



How does he do six poi at once? How does he hold them etc?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:I have absolutely no idea what a 'master' in poi really is or isn't. I just started a couple weeks ago. And not all of the threads I'm referring to are old-- some of them are in the discussions of the next COL.

I'm mostly just confused, and I'm starting to think everyone else is too.

From the outside perspective of a newbie this all seems pretty convoluted. There's a whole nest of political type garbage and arguments trying to compare things that nobody seems to have actually seen. Everyone seems to be so isolated that there's barely any perspective for levels of skill at all.

If this is the biggest online community of spinners, and there's still this much ambiguity... and nobody can point to any particular direction and say "Lo!! THAT is where the masters have transcended to, they DID join the circus!!" something's weird here.

What I'm used to/where I'm coming from:
In most disciplines, artistic or otherwise, just about anyone readily knows where the truly skilled can be found. I'm a CG artist. I hail from a massive forum with like 80,000+ members. Most of them are professionals. We know EXACTLY who the masters are around there-- and yes, a lot of the truly good ones do not bother with online communities because they don't have the time and get completely swamped by fanboys. But to find them all you have to do is look at any of the major films that have come out lately, or the various art books (except the CG Women books, those are pure booby drivel) and awards and the gallery entries that have attracted a lot of I-have-looked-on-the-face-of-god recognition. Scientists find their leaders in history and in their textbooks. Dancers find many in movies or big competitions.

Written by: arashi
For instance there's an old guy in Israel spinnin for like 30 years who spins 6 poi at once and makes it look like he's pickin his nose. There's a guy in NZ who's been spinning 20 years whose poi are like animals crawling all over his body.


Yeah THOSE are the guys I mean! Not 20-somethings with unusual talent and some spiffy moves, but guru yogi Yodas who've been at it for decades.

Written by: onewheeldave
* Some people who are very good don't like posting movies as they don't want their innovative stuff open to being copied.


That can't possibly be the reason. Anyone who is THAT good can't just be copied. The whole planet has open access to the works of Michelangelo and Rembrandt, but that doesn't mean we can steal their skill and style. True masters have no cause to be that insecure.


I guess there's only a couple of those gurus out there and they're living way out in the freekin Himalayas or something, telling squirrels things like 'there is no chain.. spin with your miiiiind.' (That or maybe the Sith got them all?)


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:awesome post Gnarly, you will find that your sentiments have been echoed in the past (a precho?) by others smile

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Gnarly Cranium


Written by: onewheeldave
* Some people who are very good don't like posting movies as they don't want their innovative stuff open to being copied.


That can't possibly be the reason. Anyone who is THAT good can't just be copied. The whole planet has open access to the works of Michelangelo and Rembrandt, but that doesn't mean we can steal their skill and style. True masters have no cause to be that insecure.



IMO it can be a possible reason for some. Whether they canor can't be copied isn't perhaps relevant, what matters is how they feel about it.

Masters of an art aren't necessarily immune from insecurity- many great artists have been deeply unstable and insecure.

Great proficiency in a skill does not necessarily lead to a good life, a happy state of mind, or a desire to share ones skills with others- sometimes it's just the opposite.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Gnarley, for a start what is a CG artist? wink



To answer your questions, the current style of poi is relatively new (5-10 years) for most people. And HOP is a real melting pot of spinners, jugglers, martial artists, clubbers, hippies, chin strokers, circus people etc. hence the confusion over styles.



My master lives in an old book. The only real Masters I have seen are in the Wu Shu (?) staff practice videos. Someone might still have the link.



There is no chain.



Dave three in each hand.



smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:CG = Computer Graphics. Not to be confused with a form of Graphic Arts, though that can qualify, it covers any form of Fine Arts where the computer is the media of choice. Includes 2d paintings that may or may not simulate physical media, to VFX in movies, fully CG animation, concept art, and video games.

Zillions and oodles of examples in the galleries and forums and articles and member websites here:
http://www.cgtalk.com/
br>
CG art itself is pretty darn new, which means it is lacking many of the institutions that traditional fine arts have... but it is taught in schools and there can be a lot of money in it for the very lucky, so it's fairly established, if changing a mile a minute.

Modern poi has only been spread for 5-10 years??? Wow that's even younger than I was thinking!! No wonder!! That right there explains a LOT. Even CG has been around long enough to claim masters like the sorts of guys who did concept work and art direction in things like Star Wars-- there are teams of these fellows in their 40s or so (even if basically none of them are teaching). I guess poi doesn't have even that. Whew. That's disappointing, but exciting at the same time. I guess the people who are pretty good now really are on the leading edge-- what fun!


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Anyone obsessed and dedicated enough to become a master isn't going to want to shovel through the crap that is tossed around here.

Hense you are left with people like me and you.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:...I'm not shoveling crap. I'm here to learn. The internet IS a very viable and useful way to communicate, I don't understand why anyone would suggest this is a waste of time-- especially for an art that's so young and isolated.



If 'dedication' = snobbery, then we don't need those people anyway.


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks for the info CGs. It is only my opinion on the time scale, and I would welcome anyone who can add to the history.

For sure, there are people out there that Im told have been spinning for longer, perhaps in New Zealand, but Maori poi is different to what we do.

Some of the old masters instead of being helpful appear bitter because everyone is now doing poi. Not all though.

Fyodor Karamazov (Tim Furst) has taught Indian clubs to a few people, and perhaps he is the type of master you seek.

In Australia, people have been doing staff for say 10 years, but poi or fire chains as they were know, has only become popular in the last 5 or so years. Also clubs there have been a few revivals in the States over the couple of decades.

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Written by:


but Maori poi is different to what we do.



Stone



Misconception #1. You mean TRADITIONAL maori poi, there are plenty of maori clubs running now that do EXACTLY what we do, including fire.



Written by:


In Australia, people have been doing staff for say 10 years, but poi or fire chains as they were know, has only become popular in the last 5 or so years.





I dont know if i would believe that!



I know people who have been spining chains over 15yrs and been all over Ozz and the world. Masters! One girl lives up the road form me. She was doing btb with fire when i was learning fire poi 10+yrs ago. and she still spinn's hard. A legned from the old days who mothered lots of people into fire poi, and created a whole army of poi clones who are now touring the world and they have never even heard of hop, and dont even waste their "hippy lifestyle" on computers.



Wether YOU would concider her a master or not, dos'nt matter because i do. And others like her who have pored yrs into spreading the love, and sharing moves with everyone. Master = a person you show upmost respect for their dedication to the art, not just their skill lvl.


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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:There is a master, but only one. There can be only one. His name is Robert Heart and he even has his own website.

He is the true master. Just ask him.

ubblol

(PS - for the uninitiated, I recommend looking up Robert Heart in the search function. Humourous & controversial, to say the least)


HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:If you had a 'master' and a 'jedi' in the same place, which would win?




smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: Gnarly Cranium

Yeah THOSE are the guys I mean! Not 20-somethings with unusual talent and some spiffy moves, but guru yogi Yodas who've been at it for decades.




The thing is, there just can't be many of these people around.

Also, being blunt, they'd have to be getting on a bit, most likely too old to have grown up with computers, so they may well not be capable of using them very well (I'm using my mum as basis for this wink )

Compare that to your CG artist forum - people there have to be very computer literate, but computer literacy isn't a prerequisite for spinning. The gurus out there may not even be aware of the online spinning community, just because we know about it doesn't mean we should take it for granted that everyone does.

Written by: Gnarly Cranium

The whole planet has open access to the works of Michelangelo and Rembrandt, but that doesn't mean we can steal their skill and style. True masters have no cause to be that insecure.



Yep, but they're still human - susceptible to all manner of strange feelings and emotions that have no basis in logic.
Maybe that's what makes them the true masters, they could be people who know full well that they're damned good, but are also so insecure that they're driven to better themselves every day, so that no-one can come along and take their crown.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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