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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:negative space is a juggling concept which coleman will kindly explain for me.



and this morning i realised i've been plaing with it loads and loads and loads with poi over the last year or so.



dom's been dipping his toes in the water too......





proper discussion when cole does his part of this job.



smiles

R

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1100181048)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Invader Xan



At any rate, I think this thread would be especially valuable to anyone who wants to work on their gallery page!





a very good point not made here yet methinks.



having said that, choosing patterns that create good solid negative space is pretty tricky (meenik does lots of it very well) - flowers, especially the antispin variety, accomplish this very nicely.



framing using the negative space created by a fire trail is hardcore.

its something that would require lots of planning, no small amount of thought about lighting and most likely, some editing afterwards too.

but the results would be so worth it ubblove



again though, great comments xan (although maybe best placed in a new thread? hug).





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Id read the rest of the thread if i were you. wink

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Nice photo Xan

That's a clever use of a lighted circle contrasted with a silhouetted figure juxtaposed against a negative space composed of mid tone brows which evokes feelings of a sunrise when viewed through a screen of dense forest. Fish can't deny it when they fart. The multicoloured circle is suggestive of a rainbow, which many dream analysts say represents a new beginning, or a birth while the darknss of the silhouette is quite obviously representative of the end of life. Your photo is a great metaphor for the paths and choices we all make in life, from a bright beginning, through a confusing haze of decisions until the final moment, the absence of colour, and life. At least that's what your photo says when it speaks to me.

That's arty and wanky

Good point though, using the ideas on this thread when composing a photograph, however I have a hard time differentiating between calling somthing negative space, or simply just a background.I couldn't make much sense out of using negative space while spinning three dimensional patterns.


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Invader Xan
SILVER Member since May 2005

Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away

Total posts: 479
Posted:Heh... 'Fraid I can't claim any credit for that photo. It was just a cool one I found in a gallery I was browsing. Thought it illustrated my point pretty well.

I need to get hold of a cheap scanner and upload some pictures sometime... Trust me, Coleman, those results are worth it! =)


"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa

Total posts: 1799
Posted:stout: hehehe. sometimes arty and wanky is also funny..! smile

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Ok, I lust pick R-Type from staff. Creating negative space
by catching oppsite Poi head to get horizontal line and
moving it in R-Type motion(LAB Reports, Mcp). This no all,

Let say it makes negative space between arms, body and Poi,
now try to get throught it, you may get behind the back, it
is ok, cause you going backward will get you back or you
repeat the same move the other 'negatve' dirrection.

Skipping rope, created by BF tangle still, like knot
and jump overs.

can't wait tommorow,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Tom_Shill
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

Tom_Shill

enthusiast
Location: Brighton

Total posts: 213
Posted:In the 'does anyone else think the poi forum has died?' thread Rob mentions the idea of negative space wibbling. Now, my understanding of negative space is limited, and I haven't done much with it yet, but I wondered if this move would qualify.

Do an anti-clockwise crosser/huggy/whateveryouwanttocallit.

The poi in your left hand will be on the right hand side of your body.

Release the it on the upswing. As you do so, lift your arms away from your body, so that what I am assuming is negative space opens up between your crossed forearms and your torso.

As the left poi head falls through the negative space, catch the handle on your left upper arm for a wibble.

The poi head will come up the outside of the left arm.

It will then fall through the negative space again, for a wibble off the right arm, and so on.

Not sure what to do with the poi in the right hand through all of this. Pengulums work quite well with the rocking movement of the arms to make the wibbles.

So...does this qualify as negative space wibbling? Anyone got any ideas/developments?

Shill
x


Will those capable of telekinesis please raise my hand?

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:ubblol

i don't see why it wouldn't *goes to get wibbles*

i've done lots of throws and catches through the gap when you ope your arms up, including traps in the elbow when most of the poi has passed through: so there's absolutely no reason why it can't be turned into a wibble - it will just require a slight movement of the upper arm *he said, confidently* ubbangel

if you could wibble like that with both upper arms, i reckon you could also do a butterfly with two poi in the hands wink


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Tom_Shill
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

Tom_Shill

enthusiast
Location: Brighton

Total posts: 213
Posted:Cool smile

It should also be possible to do it with the poi going the other way, landing it on the other side of your arm, outside the space and wibbling it up through the middle and across to the other side.


Will those capable of telekinesis please raise my hand?

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:yes, wibbing into the negative space! cool

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Tom_Shill
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

Tom_Shill

enthusiast
Location: Brighton

Total posts: 213
Posted:It's a pain in the arse, I only have crappy old poi at home. I'll have a play with this when I get back to Sheffield and see what happens smile

Will those capable of telekinesis please raise my hand?

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Mireneye
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

enthusiast


Total posts: 276
Posted:I've only now started to play with negative spaces today. Mind bending things. Anyone apply these to fire-spinning. I'm not limiting myself to fire-spinning, but I rather spend time practicing on really useful moves, so do people use these while spinning fire? I can see why it would be un-practical to do, but damn cool if possible.

So, do anyone ??

Anyhow, it's fun to just play as well ubbrollsmile


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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK

Total posts: 2895
Posted:*bump*

Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

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squid
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted:I would benefit from a dedicated workshop on negative space, because I honestly have never had much of an idea on how to go about playing with it.

"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I started playing with it just by laying a poi over a shoulder and thinking of ways I could stick the other poi through the hole I'd just made. Often it ends up that you can get out of them by flicking the poi over your head and doing a barrel roll or flicking it into a corkscrew or into an over the head TTN, this is incredibly basic negative space stuff, but it might be a beginning for you, squid.

hug

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squid
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted:Yeah, I've played with ideas like that. Seems like inversions, straightjackets, and such are about as far as I progress. But I thought there has to be more to it all.

I guess I have this idea in my head about hitting the negative space via thrown poi and catches; between the legs; just something, but without a stalled poi. Does that make sense?

The idea of a static poi being used kind of interrupts the overall flow. Dont get me wrong: I love the tech geekery. I've even ordered my official geek badge. But for me, it has to be reached with an awareness to the overall flow. This mainly comes from my desire to use negative space with fire.


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Ya, some of the stuff in the Spinach Session (Lost Leaves) vid is not possible with fire, sadly.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Does that really matter?

hug

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:That post seems a bit short, I was in a rush when I wrote that, but I mean more along the lines of "why does that matter?" Hmm maybe thats a bit short, too.

I just dont see everything being about fire... and a lot of movements I don't use with fire still benefit me when I do use fire because it helps with the interconnectedness of things... if you could look smooth with negative space stuff, you'll have a really good feel of flow when you are using fire.


hug

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Squid was saying that he wants to use this with fire. Some of the stuff BlueCat was doing is awesome, but not possible with fire.

So is not so much saying that it matters, but that the specific negative space stuff in that video will not work and that alternatives need to be found.

I also do not see everything to do with fire. I am playing with the limitations of my home-made flag poi at the moment. And some of the negative space stuff is fun with those.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I think I was just annoyed after busking escapades... people constantly demanding I set things on fire. Most people were pretty good, but yeah, the fire fire fire thing was irking me that day.

I've been thinking of making some flags... do the flags slip by your skin as you play with negative space?

And anyone out there who is proficient with negative space care to add a few tips at beginning to play with the concept?? Its not something thats naturally integrating with my style, but I think I'd benefit greatly from learning to integrate it!


hug

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:They tend to reduce what there is, even TTNs look like they are a lot more complicated than they are.

Also, timing things so that one slips behind the other (differing speeds) could be considered negative space from the audience's viewpoint.

At least if I understand the concept correctly....

And yeah, I know what you mean about the whole "Set it on fire!" "When are you burning those?" thing. *sigh*

Have not spun fire in a couple months. Will be on Saturday, which will be a nice change.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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squid
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted:Not a worry, MNS. I realized later that mentioning fire isn't really crucial. I don't actually use fire but rarely, anyways.

Thanks for mentioning the Spinach sessions. I'll need to review that and see where it takes me.

Still, it seems that negative space is somewhat of an obscure topic. In other areas of poi spinning we speak in terms of specific moves and hand positions. With this, it feels like so much is unexplored. Or at least undefined. Maybe my brain just isnt seeing the light. shrug


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Yeah, I dunno... I think its that its undefined. I mean... I've seen enough on negative space to know it when I see it but theres "That one there" , "the one where it goes through that hole and you pull the other one out like that." and "straitjackets" and since my actual self exploration with negative space has been so far unsuccessful I find it difficult to really nail down what I'm seeing... thats what makes it obscure to me.

hug

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:hmm. I seem to find its pretty well defined for me using the following stuff

hand leading or head leading?
inversions
exversions (coming out of an inversion....)
what frame is being created (arm to side, poi on shoulder, poi loop, etc)
thrown or spun?
and whether it is true framing or relative framing, and by how much....

does that help at all?


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Actually, I have been thinking about it and I think that getting complete true framing with fire is very hard.

Need to play with it some more though.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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squid
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted:Well, I finally finished reading this entire thread and...whew! While its mainly theoretics and semantics, it did give me some concrete ideas I'm starting to play with:
-between the legs buzzsaw, arms on either side and moving back and forth between the triangle created by the legs.

-inverted stalls; one poi up, other down and with the final position having the wrists crossed and touching with both poi entering and exiting inside the holes made by the arms. This one is still eluding me completely. One hand enters cleanly, but getting both requires some precision.

-I think bluecat mentions this and demonstrates in the Spinach salad: Right hand catches Right poi head and creates a loop with the Right poi leash. Left poi enters the loop from above and then release the Right poi head and then exit the ensuing tangle via an airwrap or hyperloop. Its a fun techy move, but not very dancerlike or fire friendly.



I'll try to come back from time to time as other examples come to me, but I've always been bad about that kind of follow through *thinks back to meteor wiki*. There is definitely a lot of ideas floating around in my head, but I can't yet make them come to life.

On a tangent (and thanks, btw, for the mental exercise):
after reading through the (w)hole thread, I prefer Rev's definition of Framed over negative space. There's nothing wrong with the usage of negative space, but I am a formally trained artist more than familiar with Malevich and all that theory. The practical usage of poi inside a defined space makes more sense to me personally as being Framed by a particular position or stance that the artist makes with either their body, the tool, or a combination of both. Poi+negative space implies something more physically involved than simply the space around the performer. Rather, it is how the tool moves within a conscribed space made BY the performer.

If a photograph encompasses and delineates a certain negative space in relation to the frame of the photo, the patterns, or overall stances of the performer, then the negative space is an artistic point being made by the photographer, not the performer. Simply because the two artists may work conciously in conjunction to show that space does not make it an artisitc statement of the poi. Its an artistic statement of the photograph.


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Oh squid... *shakes head* laugh3 (thats for your awful pun :D)

I liked the inverted stall... and I think I'll have to have a REALLY close look at bluecats bow tying thingy and have a punt at that... that looks like fun. grin


hug

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:i'm with ya on it being more framing than negative space, but i'm just used to the term cause its what jugglers use, and thats where i nicked most of the ideas smile

but i have to disagree on it not being dancy. i actually usually find that when looping up i have more ability to dance, simply because i'm no longer having to spin a poi crazy the spinach sessions is a bad example cause i was in a tiny space trying to show some ideas....

the bow tying is fun. it'll be on the big list of tutorial videos to make in bristol laugh3

grin nice to see people interestid in this. if you ever get a chance, check out yoshiki from paris. he is pretty damn fine at n.s spinning....


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I got the bow tying... but its a pain with my poi... they're too floopy to easily get to hang off my arm, so it takes a VERY precise throw to get it to drop over my arm and into my hand.

The knot will take a bit more to get nice and quick, but it might be easier with different poi... I think I'll use that one fairly heavily busking, bluecat.. a bit of a funny finisher... I tend to tell really lame jokes and stuff, so that'll fit in well!


hug

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