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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:negative space is a juggling concept which coleman will kindly explain for me.



and this morning i realised i've been plaing with it loads and loads and loads with poi over the last year or so.



dom's been dipping his toes in the water too......





proper discussion when cole does his part of this job.



smiles

R

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1100181048)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Now I remember playing with those with weasel last year. The trick is in the clean transition between left and right side smile

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:No.

I think i know what ou were doing..

Are you doing the continiously turning version sort of behind your back?

Or am I actually thinign of having never seen you actually do the move I described, I may just be getting you confused with Weasel.

If so, The first line of this post is slander and lies.
Slander and lies I tell you.

smile


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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Well weasel does do the sideways version where he spins round in circles, part of the BTB isolated horizontal buzzsaw 360 degree turn. But we were playing with these as well ubblol

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:So it was all slander and lies then?

smile


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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Yes, you were engaged in filthy slander and dirty lies you scurrilous fiend ubblol

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Tash and Fie Henrietta.

(the 2nd time on HOP I have said that)
smile


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duballstar
duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 2216
Posted:erm... so after finally taking the time to read this entire thread i think i may have thought of the only move seems 100% in keeping with this concept....



swing both poi by your side. stall one into a giligan. put your hip against that hand leaving a gap under your arm pit. bring the other poi across your body and swing it through the gap thus penatrating the negative space. work out for yourself how to get out of it. tongue



so am i right or am i bored? umm


It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Depends on whether you consider negative space something you can only create with body-on-body contact or with
body-on-poi contact as well. If the latter then try these... a) start in fwd TTN, stall left poi so it is resting on the right arm, bring left poi through the negative space formed there, or b) same direction eg. both going CW wall plane stall left poi on right arm again, bring left through negative space formed (requires twisting the wrist I think) either back outside or into a hyperloop if you want.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:bump

for lava, and cause there's been a lot of this of late.

and there's the ucof principle. and oliing, and vortexes now wink

biggrin


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:thanks for sharing rob!!! you have helped me greatly today!

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:indeed? how so?
i was being intentionally obtuse(arashi staying in the house has worked wonders on my elitism gland wink )

tongue


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:After Fal4 I've started playing with NS and mindgames (At Rob's instructions...)

They're fun smile

I would post some moves, but I think this might be too on topic for this thread wink

It's easier to use NS in CJ anyway...


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:and its even easier if you just put the toys down and dance... wink



i still reckon inversions and insides are the way to go with this stuff.



although inverted moves are not completely physically framed, they are far more flowing than any other ns applications with poi and they dynamically create and destroy the negative space as and when it they are required.



as for negative space vortexes and the epidemical spread of the ucof principle, i deny all knowledge wink





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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HeadSwim
HeadSwim

...curiously lost
Location: at my PC....obviously!
Member Since: 26th Jul 2003
Total posts: 580
Posted:This all sounds interesting, think i will have to play around with this idea some and see what happens! biggrin

Nothing is easy.......until you can do it! biggrin

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:negative space- pah! just none of you forget that i am the supreme ruler of all things negative and spacey. in fact the kingdom of airhead goths worship me as their god incarnate. "thou shalt pay a finders fee" is the whole of the law.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:negative space is the area immediately surrounding arashi after a heavy night on the curry. wink

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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pfsh
newbie

Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6
Posted:wheres the video?? i dont understaaaaand.....

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:so. somebody posted in a thread in discussion that there was nothing going on in new moves...

but i disagree..

this whole NS concept is growing uberfast, and there are sooooooooo many new moves coming out...

i kind of bumped this also for mark/madjuggling, cause there's some great shpiel early on in the thread..

so just as an example: got a lovely bitewrap that creaates a negatve space loop for the other poi to be dropped into wink

and one where the left poi gets dropped onto the left shoulder, the right poi comes through the gap from the top, and the right writs picks up the left poi into a barrel roll exit(everybodies favourite at uberoz.. rolleyes trust you all to go for the beautiful one rathre than all the ggekmanoovas)

smiles, and inspired grins

biggrin
R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Rovo
Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Member Since: 30th Jul 2003
Total posts: 544
Posted:I didn't pay much attention to this thread when it was first posted a long time ago, but I wish I did.

I came up with this just now to see if I understood this thread:
Catch the left poi in the right side crook of my neck, then stall the right poi downhward through the loop. Next hand the right hand poi's knot/handle into the left hand so both ends are in the left hand. Then with your right hand grab the right poi head and spin it counter clockwise and after one roatation release the left poi from your neck and you'll be in a left-handed one-handed buttefly.


This is definately another one of those things with countless possiblities.

Just when I think I have enough on my plate along comes a big steaming helping of mashed negative space to throw on there. I have to ask though where's the gravy?


Peace, Love, Circles

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: bluecat

so. somebody posted in a thread in discussion that there was nothing going on in new moves...





I do and I don't agree with that statement.. on the one hand.. there is plenty of 'new' things to work one.. but all of thse new things get overlooked because nothing in poi thus far has been fundementally more important than a 3bt weave or ttn.. the problem has been that we explored some patterns so deeply to begine with that so much is assumed to 'some along with' learning a pattern.. for example.. back in the day, you learned the weave.. and then the cork was something else.. and then the windmill was something else.. now when you learn a new pattern like antispin, or atomics or whatever, its understood that you've learned (or are learning) it horizontal, and overhead, and utl, and btb, and inverted, etc.. which is a LOT of stuff.. and all of that stuff takes time, even though conceptually, we really arent doing anything new.. I mean a 5bt weave is no different from any other 5bt weave, apart from being atomic.. and atomic is already an old concept if you can do the 3bt weave or even just a few atoms..

so IMO, I think we have plenty out there thats new.. but I think that all the new ideas build off the basics (something we really havent moved away from yet..).. and so require a mastery that most of us (myself included) just don't have yet, so what's the point of even talking about them..

just because there isnt anything 'new' doesnt mean there isnt a ton of crap out there to learn.. look how long so much of this has been around and just not been learned...


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:mm. we(not you and me, but me and NYC ubblol ) have had that old chesnut out in the past 6 months or so... i'm inclined to agree with you... and to rejoice that finally poi has become waaaaaaaaay too big for anyone to even contemplate learning everything there is to learn.



i was almost crying with pride at uberoz that i could never spin as well as everybody there, because everybody had such different styles and had (in some cases) spent several years developing and refining one technique to its limits(well, current limits)



anyway. thiss is offtopic but seems like a good discussion.. PMs or a new thread i think..?



as for the negative spacery, yes, rovo, thats definitely a good'n. i found after a while i wasn't contenet with dropping the second poi head through and stopping it, but using inversion/isolation technique to get throught he gap while still spinning, and sarrying on into weave shapes with one hand static on a shoulder, or moving between the shoulders.



currently working on smooth transitions from



frame with lefthand/leftshoulder, right poi weaving--->frame with rh, rs, left poi weaving without ever opening up....

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1139805130)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:I'm really bad about threadjacking.. frown


negative space got me playing more with the body tracing.. because then you always have negative space to spin through.. and it helps clean up one's spinning..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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Rovo
Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Member Since: 30th Jul 2003
Total posts: 544
Posted:Blue, that move sounds wikkid but I have a question. When say your left hand is on your shoulder and the right poi goes through the frame do you move your left hand away from the shoulder once the poi goes through? Oh and what does the left poi do when your left hand is on your shoulder?
I'm having trouble visualizing what it should be doing.


Peace, Love, Circles

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Its Poi(give more space) or hand that is laying on the shoulder and the negative space is the place inbetween your body,hand and shoulder. You deosnt move neither hand nor Poi to let right Poi with hand pass throught. It continue than, leaving "contact point" with your left Poi/hand into revolution. For example weave.

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Rovo
Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Member Since: 30th Jul 2003
Total posts: 544
Posted:I just don't understand t yet. I tried playing around with different things today but havn't figured it out yet. Oh well I can let this one wiat a while.

Peace, Love, Circles

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Ange_GSC
Ange_GSC

HOP's glowstick ambassador!!
Location: Bay Area, California
Member Since: 16th Aug 2005
Total posts: 128
Posted:Wow, that concept gives me loads of new ideas. *runs off to practice*

missegyptology: "I just remember beingall off balance and unicycling really fast down to campus and the arabic was all blurred on the page"

^When Linz pulls an all nighter before Arabic class^

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:cool. try throwing through your space too. biggrin

rovo: curently the poi head does nothing. biggrin
got plans tho(weasel ball ubblol )


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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madjuggling
madjuggling

stranger
Location: Sydney, NSW
Member Since: 10th Jun 2004
Total posts: 46
Posted:rob

thank for directing me to this discussion. i must say there was a lot of crap about definitions, but it seems to have been sorted out.

i must say i have never been excited about poi ike this before. i have always loved club swinging, and the only move i had trouble learning with clubs was TTN, but i learnt it with poi briefly, then learnt it with clubs, and have hardly touched poi since... until uberoz.

it was funny meeting Dom again, who i met at EJC04 and bought his sock poi, and when i was first at uberoz, they still looked completely new (even though they were a year and half old). but i got them nice and dirty over that weekend, and still cant put them down.

anyway, is there a point to this post. i hope so...

most things that can be done with poi can be done with club swinging, and still look similar and have a similar difficulty. one thing that i like about the negative space moves that i learnt is that they are unique to poi and dont carry across to club swinging, and so i have to spend time with poi in my hands, which is a good thing.

the major types of negative space that we seemed to explore at uberoz were:
* Resting a poi on a body part (shoulder, leg, back of hand), then letting the other poi do things through the hole
* holding the end of the poi in the same hand, creating a loop, and then passing the other poi through it (a body part could also be in the loop)
* holding the other end of the poi in the other hand, and the other poi passing through the space created.

other areas from reading other posts were:
* creating the negative space with just your body parts
* Creating it with your body and the ground

are there any other major concepts/ways people explore negative space? (im sure i have forgotten some, and am definitely new to this area so i havent seen much of whats out there)

is there a list of examples of tricks with negative space, with descriptions? only because i learnt a whole bag full in uberoz, and have also come up with a new bagful of variations. maybe we should start one. maybe using the above points as categories?

hope the post is useful, and gets you thinking

mark
still not sure if i can call my self a twirler... do i know enough? what will all my juggling friends say about me?
juggle


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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted:for the semantic side, i'd call what most of you seem to be talking about as "manipulating degrees of freedom" in a mathematical sense. "negative space" for me is any opposition to that which is only implicitly present. if i'm doing all front of body moves for a performance, BTB is conceptually a "negative space" to those that know it's usable. hell, standing only on the front half of a stage makes the back half "negative space" visually. pendulla make excellent use of negative space (the implied top halves of the circles) that's noticable by an audience... that's what i want more of.



making holes and putting things through holes was cool and new here when TT1 came out, but i'm looking for ways to play with my audience's head by making them expect one thing and then get another... got any ideas? smile

EDITED_BY: Dut (1142308866)


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Invader Xan
Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away
Member Since: 7th May 2005
Total posts: 479
Posted:Sorry... I'll admit I haven't had time to read all 5 pages of this thread, but I just wanted to throw in my 2c...
I'm not sure if this is worthy of a new thread, but how about perceived negative space?
Have a look at this picture...
http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=3612
br>(Sweet picture, by the way, Sprocket... Love the silhouette.)

The buzz saw makes a circle. That circle doesn't really exist, but you see it. Inside the circle is negative space. Again, it's not 'real' negative space, but to all intents and purposes, it looks like it in the photo. From the way your eyes work, if you spin fast enough, you see the circle without needing a long camera exposure.
Now... This is speculation, seeing as I've never done a proper buzz saw before, but imagine: You go into a regular buzz saw, then as you do so, you move your hands up and down (left hand up as right hand goes down and vice versa). Anyone standing to your side (like the viewpoint in this photo) would see negative space shapes.

I've taken literally hundreds of photos of various people playing with fire toys, and if you're taking pictures, negative space defines the difference between a cool picture and a big fiery mess. Not that a big fiery mess is necessarily a bad picture. =)

At any rate, I think this thread would be especially valuable to anyone who wants to work on their gallery page!
Does all of that make sense? Grab a friend with an SLR and have fun, people. =)




Disclaimer: My apologies if this is in any way arty or wanky. I'm a graphic designer, so I guess that makes me both. =P
On the plus side, it means I know a lot about negative space, seeing as I use it a lot.


"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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