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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:negative space is a juggling concept which coleman will kindly explain for me.



and this morning i realised i've been plaing with it loads and loads and loads with poi over the last year or so.



dom's been dipping his toes in the water too......





proper discussion when cole does his part of this job.



smiles

R

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1100181048)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Are you trying to take arashi's place now? biggrin

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Looks like it doesnt it?

Telling others to post for him...

rolleyes

Rob...skinup tongue


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:sorry.

my definition of it is crap.
coles definition of it is good.

i would prefer you got a good definition.

anything wrong with that?

already skun up. your turn.


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Dang.

Can we hear your interpretation of it first please as so to confuse us?

Then Cole can drop by and clear up any misunderstanding.

smile

*skinsup*

*lovestherob*


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:negative space



don't know where the concept came from - it is possibly a general term, it very possibly comes from the art world and it seems to be used regularly to describe elements in sculptures.



wherever its from, my understanding of it, as applied to sculpture or one's body, is this:



negative space is a space that is bounded by positive space - positive space being the space taken up by an object.



check out the pictures on the left of this page, about half way down.



so to create negative spaces we enclose areas with parts of our bodies or with objects such as hoops.



simplest example i can think of: putting your hands on your hips - this creates two negative spaces on either side of your waist. these are the spaces enclosed by your arms, bound by your arms and your body.



i heard contact jugglers that were dancing using this term first and then found out about a certain stefan sing.



the idea mr blue is getting at is the creation and use of these negative spaces during poi play - creating negative spaces with your body and manipulating the poi through them, or even creating negative spaces with poi and manipulating another poi or your body through that.



i have tried using negative space while juggling but alas it is beyond me, for now.



someone please skin up.



hug*doof*doof*hug


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:thanks cole.

right.

where to start.

f*ck

i think there are about a million moves/ideas already in use.


AAAAAARGH.

uberargh.

will come back when brain less overloaded.

this is the first thing thats made me want to play with poi loadsandloads for over 6 weeks....


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Going into a staightjacket (reels with arms fully folded) is an awesome neg space move.



Although neither space is fully bounded when you go through it, so does it 'count'?



Written by: coleman
i heard contact jugglers that were dancing using this term first



People like Piet Mondrian were using the term 'negative space' in that same sense long before silly ball people tongue wink



Negative space tree


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Although, in my humble opinion, these moves that are called 'negative space moves' would be better served with a less pretentious name
(coughcoughbloodycontactjugglerscough)

They are about making a hole then putting something through it

i've heard far too much absolute bull$hit about negative space from wanky artists

now i have to hear it from wanky jugglers too?

ye gods...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:yeah, negative space is a hugely effective tool for artists. it is much easier to draw the outline of something surounding an object (let's say a person) than it is to draw that person's outline directly because of all the preconceptions in your head about what the object/person should look like as opposed to what they do look like. this can be due to poor mapping from 3-d to 2-d or even just mental ridgidity of an idealized form.

To me, what I've hear descibed here for juggling/poi is more akin to framing, which is very similar to negative space in some aspects. But this is purely from the artistic education standpoint (yes, I am a physicist AND an artist by education), and so when terms are taken from one realm to another, their meanings are often morphed.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:You can do this sort of stuff as well when you grab the poi head either in the other hand or in the same hand after a wrap. And then exit via more wraps or airwraps.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I like this 'negative space' shenanigan. When I was young un, they called it 'figure and ground'. Negative space seems a lot more futuristic though.

I Like M.C. Escher.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i like the term negative space.

i was jealous when i thought only contact jugglers and people that could draw could use it.

now i can too.

notcoleman5 and lots of other buzzsaw weave stuff utilise negative spaces.

in fact, i think the reason buzzsaws in general look so cool is beacause they pass through a negative space.


yours sincerely,

wanky juggler.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: simian

Written by: coleman
i heard contact jugglers that were dancing using this term first


People like Piet Mondrian were using the term 'negative space' in that same sense long before silly ball people tongue wink[/url]



Written by: coleman

negative space

don't know where the concept came from - it is possibly a general term, it very possibly comes from the art world and it seems to be used regularly to describe elements in sculptures.



but mondrian never did this tongue

wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:1- the buzzsaw use of negative space is just in the general sense that they are not the body.. there's no connection in a buzzsaw to make negative space.. its more of a C shape the and O.. in that sense spinning at all takes place in negative space (think of the black on the outside of the white stool, not just the black inside the white stool... ) I mean if you want to use non-enclosed sections then any inside (like say a water mill) will make use of negative space in that more general sense.. your arms during a btl weave (and thepoi as they pass btl) Even a good bit of antispin makes use of this semiclosed negative space..

2- inverted weaves are good examples because the over lap of the hands to do the inversion creates a hole that you can put stuff through.. but I mean this could be things as simple as putting your hands on your hips and spinning through the hole.. or the way the poi spin in a tangled buzzsaw.. infact a LOT of tangle stuff makes use of this concept.. sometimes on multiple levels..

3- I think this is one area where glowstringers already have an advantage in that a lot of the string stricks and what not make use of a lot of these negative spaces.. grabbing the stick so as to manipulate the poi through the hole made and what not..

yeah I'm with blue..
F*ck.. theres a lot here..


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:1. rev, the negative space on the outside of the stool is enclosed by the frame of the photograph.

the watermill (not between the legs version) is a good example of negative space in its loosest sense - the space may not be entirely bound but the space created between your arms and your legs easily qualifies.

btl watermill uses an entirely bound negative space - the btl space is completely bound by your legs and the ground.

fully bounded negative space is rare in poi i think but this does mean the scope is not there or that none of these things can be referred to as negative space.

the buzzsaw negative space may not be entirely bound but the horizontal area enclosed by the arms and the chest are a perfect example of a move where objects pass through a negative space.



2. buzzsaw weaves have more complicated negative spaces that are not entirely bound either - they use the plane of the other poi to help create them.



3. just the few examples of mind games and gumby's that i've seen have a multitude of negative space examples.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mo-seph


mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Total posts: 524
Posted:Nice one for bringing this up. It's a fantastic concept.



There seem to be two different understandings of negative space in this thread; there's the general artistic version, and possibly there's a juggling specific version, which consists of



Written by: simian
making a hole then putting something through it





In the general sense, negative space doesn't have to be completely surrounded by the object to be negative space - if you look at the picture of the stool with the negative space highlighted, most of it is outside the stool. This is quite clear because there's a defined frame around the image; it's a bit more difficult with a spinner - is the frame the stage, or the reach of the toys, or something different and harder to define? But there's negative space around you all the time. Worrying about whether or not it's completely enclosed is closer to topology.



So I think there's a two directions that come from this; one is finding families of moves which involve the making and penetrating of holes umm, and the other is a more general understanding of the effect of spinning. To get pretentious, you could say that spinning is really an exploration of negative space - you're finding configurations which allow the toys to move through the negative spaces left by the body (because if you try to move them through positive space it hurts.)



And I think that looking at spinning as negative space exploration is a nice way to get into multi person stuff and environment interaction.



Right, off to think and play biggrin



Edited to say that coleman types faster than me wink

EDITED_BY: mo-seph (1100017170)


monkeys ate my brain

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:wwwaaaaoh sh*t.

do we start on semi-enclosed spaces as well? f*ck.

i was thinking of puting p some lists, but here are some ideas of was o create negaitve spaces(mmmm lovely wank eh simon?).

isolated stalls: stalling so the poi head is stopped, touching your body.

notcoleman variations(oh alright, inversions, well, some of them)

drapes: should be obvious, explanation if not

end catches(remember you have feet wink )

wraps
airwraps(most variations, naming shenanigans aside)

mindgames; couldn't agree more rev, glwstringers ae way ahead here, tho that bristol lass elasta has these coming out of her ears. talented lady, must film.

i'm sure theres loads more, but been jugglng and thats put my mind oon another plane.

love
R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:coleman...

I was citing the figure in the diagram where it said the stool could be completely drawn form the negative space.. whihc I took to mean the outside as well since the inside alone can't draw the 'stool'


and on the inverted weaves... the create negative space.. because like a weave, your wrists are together.. so you have a bound circle using just your arms.. and since the wrists stay in contact, there is never a break by whihc to not have negative space.. so it really doesnt need the poi at all for negative space...

??? confused


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Oh the geeks have risen to a whole new level. wink

We've taken off the coke bottle glasses and pocket protectors and put on black berets, ghotis and fake French accents and clap by snapping our fingers.


Non-Https Image Link


Mais oui... It is not where ze poi is... but where ze poi is not. Not where it has gone but where it is go-wing. It is emportant to think outside ze poi, so we may become what is inzide ze poi. Much like ze music is always playing and we only use ze instruments to harness it, ze poi is always spinning... and we only use the wicks to contain which of ze infinite poi possibilities we will realize. Schrotengers cat is alive and we are all dead."

See... THIS is why I love you guys. ubblove

Looking forward to more... biggrin


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:ooooh oui oui... *snap* *snap* *snap*

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:rev - i get what you said about the stool.
i was pointing out that the buzzsaw has an excellently defined negative space even though it is not bound absolutely (there is a gap of an inch or so between fingertips usually).

[image]http://www.apogeephoto.com/mag1-3/stool3.jpg[/iamge]

you are completely correct that the outside of the stool counts as negative space.
i was pointing out that in that example, the frame of the photograph makes the negative space 'outside' the stool far more clearly defined.

like you said, any space not filled by an object is regarded as negative space - all the space around a spinner is negative space.

but it is the exagerration of these spaces, using objects and boundaries to create discrete negative spaces that makes them interesting.

compare with what mo-seph mentions about the poi spinner and the stage...

not sure what you're arguing against here dude but while we're on the subject - my wrists rarely touch apart from when i spin extra beats when weaving in the wallplane.
they *never* touch during inverted weaves - especially the 1bt inversions like the '3bt weave that goes over-under-through' and the notcoleman5.

shrug


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: NYC

Oh the geeks have risen to a whole new level. wink

We've taken off the coke bottle glasses and pocket protectors and put on black berets, ghotis and fake French accents and clap by snapping our fingers.



where you been man - that happened ages ago!

cyclic deconstructionism within the framework post-modernist poi


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Lol

indeed Mr NYC

*fingerclickingberetwearingicon*


Getting to the other side smile

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:wot a useless thread. its like being back in art school, a lot of peaple waffling on about thier favriot theory and no-one actually doing anything new. Common blue, give us some applications!

Ill start it off, forwrads bteween the leg throw comming over the shoulder with your hand on your head. see? easy.

t wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Leif
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Leif

member
Location: College Station, Texas, USA

Total posts: 56
Posted:I definitely like the negative space "title". I think it is fitting and is nice to have a label for this concept finally.

What else can I say? TamingFire.Com

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:you guys are gonna crap yourselves when you see my routine. i use lots of negative space in my dancing, such as bringing a buzzsaw into various negative spaces, like doing indian dance head slides as i bring the buzz over my shoulder btwn arm and head.

dance is the art of creating moving sculpture with the body.

wow i'm impressed, you guys might be actually not sucking so bad soon.

.

and by "not sucking so bad" i mean "dancing more like me."


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

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Posted:point taken coleman.. I was just confused.. because you were like but no... and I was like but I dont understand.. now I do.. thx..





and on the inverted weave thing.. me and spiral had talked long ago about inverted weaves.. and he got me to do one with my wrists together.. to show that they don't have to be isolated, even in the slightest... and by inverting that way, you create a non-disjuncted negative space.. and so when I think inverted weaving.. thats what I think.. since when I think of keeping my wrists apart during an ivnerted weave, I create a slight isolation to make it work. and thus because I'm a geek, I call that an isolated inversion..



wasnt really arguing so much as clarifying that one can create negative space with inversions by just using the body to create space and the poi to go through it..





arashi- so when will we see this routine? sounds fun


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:s'true

there's a negative space where there should be some vids of mr arashi

i thought he didn't really exist at all until i saw a photo of him the other day


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:nothing exists

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:I suppose you want me to post a video:
theres gold in this here video
Negative space and what I would call threading (orange top sequence near the end), but thats not any proper name..

theres lots of negative space stuff to play with with poi, and with staff and any prop and no props
and there lots of threading to be done with poi and with a staff
and some very nice stuff too
hint: experiment with putting the iso point at the centre of the neg space
and please do try not to look too camp when you put your hand on your hip

... Just manifesting [censored] at a different time.
or for mr Neuvouz yorke Ville
Nous sommes manifestez le merde a une heure different


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