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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Ive been spinning poi for a good two years now, and I am always more than willing to teach anyone who wants to learn.

Now a bit of background info: Sunbeam, Konsti (troubled badger notjingt to lose) and I (and also another friend) are all at University together.

Here there are many spinners.

The number is growing as well...

however, there is one thing that for some odd reason annoys me (well, not reallys annoys, more like its me being a bit grumpy)

Hyperloops.

I had been spininng for two years before these dumbfounded contraptions of moves were invented.

I learnt the "moves" in poi as most people do (2 beat/ chase, butterfly, corkscrew, 3 beat, 4, 5, etc) and then i learnt hyperloops.

But nowerdays people are wanting to learn Hyperloops straight away.

But I say NO!

My question to you is:

Is my saying NO! justified?

Should people, when learing this Poi malarky, start with easy moves or go straight into hard technicalised stuff?

Is there even a correct order in which to learn spinning?

*mandoratory suck up to not offend anyone coming up*

This post isnt aimed at ANYONE on here and i dont not mean to cause offence. If you dont like what im saying, then print up a t-shirt and tell the world. I dont care. wink

*mandatory suck up finished*


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:good question.
long answer.
read this. ubbangel


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"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Frodo
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

Frodo

old hand
Location: In a van, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1092
Posted:ive been spinning for 10 months as u know ucof, should i be trying to learn technical stufF???

does 10 months qualify me? cause ??? cause ??? i wanna learn them, and have learnt a few and am progressing onto some crazy ones?

do i qualify? and am a a "new spinner"??


passing through, this world still lives.

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:I would say your better off having a good grounding in the basics first. But then I'm willing to admit I'm wrong.

Where do you draw the line? Can you do a thread the needle behind your head and back? How about a 4 beat behind your back or head?

Hyperloops are a family of moves and although technically more difficult, who's to say where they should be learnt in order. confused

There is the argument that poi moves reveal themselves to you over time and that's true but you often need the initial seed (or knowing something exists) or you could miss something.....I think. This isn't the same as been showing somthing like that though.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Kit


veteran
Location: middle of Troon

Total posts: 1269
Posted:i hope not.... redfacep i've only been spinning since october! i think he means NEWbies like 'ooh i picked up poi last week show me hyperloops!'

random murbles

BELTANE FIRE FESTIVAL. 30th april ~ Calton hill - Edinburgh
SAMHUINN FESTIVAL. 31st October ~ Royal Mile - Edinburgh

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:IMO (which stands for In Monkeys Opinon)

its not about what "moves" you have

its about the control you have over the poi

you can start with tangles before cross follow if you want and\or can

you might find it a bit tricky

but i know an ber juggler who did exactly that

and now he's rather good at them smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom

Total posts: 6207
Posted:i say if they want to lear n hyperloops teach them, its then not ur fault if they end up as a 5 trick woner, not knwoing how to spin properly!

still its you who will get bad mouthed! kiss


Step (el-nombrie)

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laZy
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

member
Location: Somerset...... England

Total posts: 94
Posted:I don't think that you can say that you cant learn the hard stuff first. But I kinda defeats the reason of calling them the advanced hard moves if they are learnt first. Plus it's a whole lot easier to learn hyperloops, wraps and isolations once youve got the basics done first. I have been spinning for just under eight months and would call myself a new spinner but at the same time I would call myself a good spinner. I would have loved to learn the hard stuff first but it's like trying to run when you can't walk. Now having got hyperloops under my belt I'm not that impressed and I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

laZy


as laZy as .....

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:i don't think there's any right or wrong, people can learn whatever they want - if you won't teach them then someone else will.

but if they don't learn the basics first then they will be rubbish, basicaly. they will be able to do those tricks, but they won't be able to progress much in any direction till they know the building blocks.

people always ask me to teach them to do btb waeves before they can do a reverse weave - it's possible to learn btb forewards, but much harder, so i never teach till they can do both forewards and reverse. I could try teaching fwd btb, but they normally find it too hard and just give up - it's in people interest to learn properly if they want to take it further.


However if they just want to learn that trick, it's really up to them, they know what they want, and as long as you've explained to them the progression why shouldn't they learn whatever they want?


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:humph....more like the problem with old spinners today tongue

No seriously....different people develop at different rates. Personally I've been learning for *counts fingers* 9 months and had the 5 beat fwd/bkwd basic weave nailed within a cuple days of trying and that was about 2 months after I started spinning....but....I only saw a hyperloop being done about 2 weeks ago and nailed it reasonably quick. But could I do it because I've now been spinning consistently for the last 9 months and have the technique or just because they're actually incredibly easy to do?? confused If I had seen them done earlier I'm sure I would have nailed it earlier but of course I'll never find out now.

So in answer to your question....

"....people are wanting to learn Hyperloops straight away. But I say NO! ......is my saying NO! justified?"

No. I don't think so. I think if they want to learn show them how to pull off the move, explain the basics of it but explain your thoughts on the importance learning the basics and technique first. Do you have structured lessons? Then make sure that hyperloops aren't in them.
Don't stop spreading the knowledge of moves, you could be holding up the next poi prodigy!! weavesmiley


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yeah. I think you can teach anyone anything they want. weather they can do it is another matter, and you might suggest a few things to get them there...

so the kids want hyperloops, give them to them, watch thoes planes. give them heavy poi to practice with too, if you can do it you can, and thats great, you kneed joy in your poi to put the hours in to realise your planes. peaple find them in the end, but mainly through trying to learn tricks that are too hard for them.

besides, if something is really difficult then you should straight right away, cos its gonna take ages. eek

Later madam bovery

T wave

p.s. isolations are always good, they are damm hard and take a few months of practice at least, its shure to get teh newbie going, one way or the other... hehehe wink


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think that many of what we call advanced moves aren't necessarily harder to learn than the basics if they're taught properly.

It took me 3 months to learn a reverse 3-beat and I've occasionaly taught it to someone in an hour.

I don't think that one handed butterfly combinations are technically more difficult than 3 beat stuff.

I've recently been teaching a girl who's got a lot of potential who's picked up the basics really quickly, last week I started to show her how to do releases/throws.

On the other hand I was recently showing someone else some basics but she was constantly asking how to do five beats. I found it a little annoying as I was trying to help her achieve a more relaxed and stable three beat.

To me, she really needed to sort out her 3 beat before working on getting extra beats in and my feeling was that I was wasting time which could be spent either teaching someone else more willing to listen, or practising my own stuff.

Whereas, the first girl put in a lot of effort to learn the basics I showed her and made a big effort to put thought into learning to slow down the moves as I suggested, so I was totally happy to spend more time teaching her and introduce her to some release moves.

Part of why I wanted her to try this was to satisfy my own curiosity about whether releases are genuinely advanced or whether it's just a tradition to teach them last.










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But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:I think everyone should get a firm grasp of the basics before trying anything technical and complicated. If someone doesn't have a firm grasp of your basic 3-beat weave. Meaning making look clean, not having problems, being able to move the planes around and all the tweeks to it. When they get to harder more technical moves its gonna be that much harder to control the planes keep it looking clean and even from looking good at all.

I think if you havn't been spinning for long and are just starting make sure you have everything down before you move on to more technical stuff. It will help you learn moves in the long run.

I made the mistake of not learning my windmills and corkscrews clockwise when i first started and had to go back and relearn those moves. Believe me it was frustrating.


Peace, Love, Circles

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:
Quote:
I think everyone should get a firm grasp of the basics before trying anything technical and complicated.



true - but not everyone plans to take it on full time - some people just want a couple of moves to lear.

on the other hand, most people don't realise when they start just how addictive it is!

Quote:
I made the mistake of not learning my windmills and corkscrews clockwise when i first started and had to go back and relearn those moves. Believe me it was frustrating.



believe me, i know! i had to spend a good 6 months relearning every trick i knew backwards - it was annoying and also completely POIntless, cos i sould have done them as i went along. that's why it's important to have someone tech you before you jump in alone.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Personally, when I teach, I bring spinners through the basics first, to give them a foundation from which to build upon.

Different spinners learn at different speeds. I am a slow learner, and I know this. I am a decent spinner, in my opinion.

I'm not a trick spinner, though I love learning new tricks. What I've been told I do and do well is move and dance with the poi. Oh and rolly pollies too. biggrin

Seriously, though, I am not able to teach folks hyperloops because I'm not there, nor am I able to teach isolations.

I can teach behind the back reverse weave, but not btb forward.

Unless the spinner in question seems to be comfortable and smooth with reverse to forward weave turns, I tend to hold off on the extra beat moves until their planes seem decent, and they've relaxed.

HOWEVER, as I said earlier, different people learn at different speeds, so I've had to learn to be flexible.

One of my friends/students has an amazing grace to his spinning. He's probably close to the level I'm at as a spinner, and has been at it for less than a year. He can even move, and dance as he spinns, which is totally amazing to me. It took me about a year to really start moving with it...but then...I'm a slow learner. biggrin

Now that I've rambled, and written a novel...I'm going to finish eating my breakfast.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:
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Jon, this morning*



Quote:
Hyperloops.



I had been spininng for two years before these dumbfounded contraptions of moves were invented.





OK, my neck needs a stretch biggrin



No-one invented hyperloops!



I know this because I used to do hyperloops with lengths of rope many years ago, before I even knew what poi were. But that doesn't mean I invented hyperloops, does it?



You could even say it was the first ever "move" I learned. At the time it didn't look like it could be of much use to anyone so I stopped doing it. When I found poi, I read hyperloop instructions which confused me into no longer being able to remember how I originally did them, although i know it's definitely the same move. Is this the right way to learn?



Anyway, that's how it happened for me frown



(*only joking luv wink )


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:replace "invented" with "got popular"

this means that you have now got to take out the "were" in the sentence as well, but you know what i mean.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I'm always amazed at how fast I can teach someone to learn moves.

I think I taught what took me a year to a certain someone in a weekend. And not even very much time on the weekend too.

To answer your question, YES, you are justified in saying "No" to teaching a newbie spinner tricks before they are ready.

When teaching chemistry, I've got tons of tricks that I COULD tell the kids to allow them to get the 'right answer' on an exam without actually learning the concept. Of course, I don't tell them the tricks until AFTER I feel that they've learned the concepts. And the same is true for poi.

As a poi teacher I feel that I have a responsibility to teach theory and philosophy as well as 'moves'. And if you're not willing to buy into that, then go find another teacher. smile

Or UCOF, you could just be a jerk about it which is always fun... just keep saying things like:

-"Here, watch me!" [And do the hyperloop slightly differently every time]
-"You're thinking about it too much! Just let your mind clear"
-"Let the poi move you"
-"You've almost got it... try it faster and closer to your face."
-"Visualize it"
-"Be the poi"
-"Yup, that's it!" [When they clearly can't do it]
-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]
-"Try it without the poi first"
-"It doesn't work unless they're on fire"
-"I learned that in London, I can't teach it in New York" [Works for me only]
-"Which move did you want to learn? This one?!" [And then continue doing the wrong trick] "Or this one"?

Hee hee... the list continues... and yes, I do realize that I'm giving the entire London Crew ammo for the next time I ask them to explain a trick. tongue

I got a DJ friend that works in clubs and whenever someone asks him for a request he always says one of two things... either "Yo, I just played that" or "I'm gonna put that on next"... Translate it to poi and use as necessary. biggrin

But again, that's just me being silly. I do think we have a responsibility to incorporate proper philosophy and technique in teaching as well as showing where to put your hands for a hyperloop.

ubbangel


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
No-one invented hyperloops!





ain't nobody here invented a move

we just manifesting this [censored]

at a different time.



said a random b-boy with the knowledge...







[edit:



-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]



ubblol



i so do that one!

not on purpose though ubbangel]

EDITED_BY: coleman (1079018783)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom

Total posts: 6207
Posted:Quote:
Quote:
No-one invented hyperloops!





ain't nobody here invented a move

we just manifesting this [censored]

at a different time.



said a random b-boy with the knowledge...







[edit:



-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]



ubblol



i so do that one!

not on purpose though ubbangel]





pats cole n head (standing on toes) there there cole its ok have a biscuit


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Step (el-nombrie)

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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:Ok, wasn't gonna post in here... but I didn't know there would be biscuits... biggrin

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:munch...

this is turning into an intro thread, now there is all this talk of biscuits...

rolleyes


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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom

Total posts: 6207
Posted:well i thought it was getting a lil tence, and a lil starngly circular in argument, and as a newbie! felt that to apease the older wiser spinners that biccies would be good!



esp HOBKNOBS


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both milk and...


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Quote:

-"Try it without the poi first"




Best way to teach the weave IMHO...

But otherwise I agree with Jon.

If I'm teaching (which I LOVE more than spinning sometimes) I'm always strict on nailing the basics. Same when I'm teaching drum-kit - Pupils always put on their current favourite track (often Blink 182) and ask me to teach them that. Ok, Blink's an extreme cos it takes practice to get to those speeds, but what's the point in teaching them a song if they can't even play a basic groove.

You could teach a child to play Mozart, but it wouldn't mean they could play piano...


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom

Total posts: 6207
Posted:not at all jon, this thread is just repeating what countelss threads have already said, that older spinners resent the fact that somtimes moves they have talken a long tim eto learn are being nailed by newbies cos they have been well rehearsed, and can be tought better than some one taught you cos they were new!

belive me man, this aint an attack, and while anyone i have asked has always shown me moves, i like somple moves to look good before i go to higher moves like hyerloops and so on, but i will learn them, and then teach others, but pls dont tar all newbies with same brush, see i bring biccies to win you over! biggrin


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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom

Total posts: 6207
Posted:im deffo with you durbs on teh drum kit, i have ppl who think that drumming is easy, and tha tyou will be playing blink, incubus, or any kind of music staright off, and yes i teach basics over anything, i throw you in first to learn that spinning well is hard, then i pull you back and teach them basic!

Step (el-nombrie)

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Quote:
-"Here, watch me!" [And do the hyperloop slightly differently every time]
-"You're thinking about it too much! Just let your mind clear"
-"Let the poi move you"
-"You've almost got it... try it faster and closer to your face."
-"Visualize it"
-"Be the poi"
-"Yup, that's it!" [When they clearly can't do it]
-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]
-"Try it without the poi first"
-"It doesn't work unless they're on fire"
-"I learned that in London, I can't teach it in New York" [Works for me only]
-"Which move did you want to learn? This one?!" [And then continue doing the wrong trick] "Or this one"?



ubblol ubblol ubblol

Man your one funny Pimp. Had me laughing out loud there....I'm so gunna use them. ubblol


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:ok i have two replies....

my initial thought is ya jon, i think you're justified. whenever i teach someone poi, i tell them to learn the basics first because most everything else builds off that.

however....

somethings durbs said struck me.....
Quote:
You could teach a child to play Mozart, but it wouldn't mean they could play piano...




i was one of those child geniuses (so to speak) when it came to piano. i'm no rachmaninoff or beethoven, but it was one of those things i just got. i even thought about quitting at some point and my piano teacher BEGGED me to not. she tried to teach me my scales, keys, technique, theory, all that crap. and i just couldn't get it. i'd learn it for maybe 10 minutes...long enough to make her think i understood, but then it got away from me. i couldn't tell you what a single chord is or what key a piece is in. but i can play. it's one of the few things i do well enough to actually take pride in and (humbly) boast about. so in that respects, i think there are people who can learn isolations and hyperloops and btb 5 beat and all that stuff i'm crap at ubblol without learning the very basics. (they're the kind of people who REALLY frustrate me just cause i'm such a slow learner at poi and i wish i could be like them! ubblol )


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:Quote:
When teaching chemistry, I've got tons of tricks that I COULD tell the kids to allow them to get the 'right answer' on an exam without actually learning the concept. Of course, I don't tell them the tricks until AFTER I feel that they've learned the concepts. And the same is true for poi.




ok, i agree with taking it seriously, but isn't that just a little bit too much like school? it's not like we're actually taking exams in this stuff, and if we had to then it wouldn't be fun anymore. Sure if someone asks you to teach them 'properly' then do it that way - but when someone obviously wants to learn a specific move i don't see any harm in just teaching it to them. Most people will go away and practice and they can sort out their planes on their own, but they only have so much time with a teacher and i know i certainly want to gather as many tricks as possible when i'm out, and take them home to practice.

all that you must learn it properly first! sounds a bit heavy to me.

i appreciate the value of learning well, but in the long run someone will develop ok if they're natural, no matter which trick they learnt first.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
Most people will go away and practice and they can sort out their planes on their own, but they only have so much time with a teacher and i know i certainly want to gather as many tricks as possible when i'm out, and take them home to practice.



what a great point miss star biggrin

it hasn't really been mentioned in the teching moves thread (which is like this one but with a larger scope and more spiritual/philosophical viewpoints).


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:yay! i made a good point! biggrin

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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