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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:In another thread about drug free spinning a few people said that taking drugs or not was a matter of personal choice.

I feel a little uneasy about applying that phrase to drugs as they tend to be addictive or habit forming substances.

i.e. they effectivly diminish or remove the ability to make choices. for example, someone who has never smoked can choose whether or not to light and smoke a cigarette, but someone who has a thirty a day habit and is severely addicted to nicotine no longer has that choice.

There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.

Whilst some drugs are considered non addictive, due to peer pressure and the pro drug marketing that is rife in our culture, choice is effectivly reduced.

I know that people shouldn't be influenced by such things, but humans are extremely suseptible to this- there wouldn't, for example, be so many drinks promotions if promotions didn't work.

The sad thing is that the young are most suseptible to this pro drug propaganda.

I was wondering what those of you who believe that taking drugs is a matter of personal choice, thought about this?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Drugs are addictive, there is no nonaddictive drug out there. Most people dont realise that they are addicted, they just think that they enjoy the high. Weather or not it is a chemical addiction doesnt matter. There is also social addiction and a physical addiction.

Some people drink because people they like do it, and they want to be like those people. When they drink they are accepted, and eventually they become addicted to that acceptance. This is a social addiction.

Then you have the physical addiction, the placing of a ciggeret to your lips just the muscle memory and repetitive nature of it gets to to be habbit forming.

The human body does not need narcotics nor does it need alcohol or tobacco. It may not allways kill someone, but it isnt good for the body.

Any type of smoke inhalation is deadly, be it fire smoke, tobacco, pot, or anything else. It isnt healthy.


Well it is your choice, heaven knows I am more than addicted to caffeen I get withdraws after a day so Im not perfect


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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RoDuS
member
Location: Australia qld
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 50
Posted:Well once you are on drugs you dont have any choices (imo).

I use smoke a little bit of weed i found the only way i could stop smoking it was i took up smoking tobaco and drinking a great deal off alcohol.

They are prolly just as bad for me if not worse but least they wont end me up in jail. but they will be alot easyer to give up then pot.

I coudn't imagine being addicted to a much harder drug but i am glad i have learnt that its not worth it so when the time comes i can say NO!


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.I think you're very wrong here

It's a matter of WILL - they've not lost their ability to choose - it's just that they're not bothered enough yet

for some that time when they are bothered enough will come too late

for some they'll only use not abuse and they won't harm themselves

you can't make that judgement for other people

it's not prodrug propaganda - well ok some is - but none of us would benefit from more being sold, we're just relating experiences and on the whole it's not problem causing

eg. i'm sure many of us like a drink or two, but i doubt there's many here who dont' know when to stop and are really damaging themselves

or did you find drugs that addictive that for you it has to be an all-or-nothing situation?


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:I think this is a very interesting question, but maybe it would be a good thing to keep this within the frame of the other discussion. There are allready so many threads about it ...

just my opinion

Much respect and Shine on
Cass


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Cassandra:
I think this is a very interesting question, but maybe it would be a good thing to keep this within the frame of the other discussion. There are allready so many threads about it ...

just my opinion

Much respect and Shine on
Cass Hi Cass,

My reason for posting it apart from the 'drug free spinning' thread is because that thread was meant to be a place of support for those who don't take or are considering stopping taking drugs.

As such, I requested on its first post that people didn't post pro or con drug stuff that could turn the thread into an argumentative one.

Thankfully people have, on the whole, respected that.

The question of 'drugs and choice' is a controvesial one and could well provoke some pro/con drug debate, for that reason I considered it inappropriate to post it on 'drug free spinning'


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by frostypaw:
quote:There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.I think you're very wrong here

It's a matter of WILL - they've not lost their ability to choose - it's just that they're not bothered enough yet

for some that time when they are bothered enough will come too late

for some they'll only use not abuse and they won't harm themselves

you can't make that judgement for other people

it's not prodrug propaganda - well ok some is - but none of us would benefit from more being sold, we're just relating experiences and on the whole it's not problem causing

eg. i'm sure many of us like a drink or two, but i doubt there's many here who dont' know when to stop and are really damaging themselves

or did you find drugs that addictive that for you it has to be an all-or-nothing situation? I spent over ten years being addicted to nicotine, the last two of which all pretence that I had any control or even liked the things was gone.

I've done a lot of research on nicotine addiction and I've observed over those years the behaviour of a lot of smokers.

What you say about me and drugs being an all or nothing situation is very true for nicotine- I know with 100% certainty that I can live the rest of my life without ever smoking, and I know with 100% certainty that if I have so much as one toke on a cigarette, that I will again be hooked.

The thing with nicotine is that it's not just the addictive qualities that keep people hooked on them, it's the myths and illusions that go along with them.

Anyone who is interested in escaping from smoking and understanding how they became trapped in the first place should read Allen Carrs- 'the easy way to give up smoking'.

Smoking is surrounded with myths, illusions and lies; if you can see through the illusions you can walk away from the habit easily and with no 'withdrawal symptoms' whatsoever.

Incidently, one of the confusions that keeps people trapped is the common belief that giving up is a matter of will. Some addicted smokers are weak willed, but a lot are incredibly strong willed with total control over every other aspect of their lives; they still fail to give up because escaping addiction is not a matter of will power but of understanding.

As for alcohol, yes, many can drink with control and I'm sure we all know plenty of people who can drink with control.

However, there are a lot who can't, and it is the nature of things that out of control drinking is hidden by the victim and those around him/her.

So to some extent the truth is hidden, and hidden truth is another enemy of choice.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:This is a difficult one and as always I'm strugging to keep this brief. I'm not really sure if Dave's first post stated a question or a comment.

There are chemically addictive substances and there are people who are more subsceptible to them than others. But with the vast majority of substances people aren't so much 'addicted' to them chemically, but rather habit plays a greater role.

Everyone has habits and routines, and it's when these involve drugs that we label it 'addiction'. I see someone with a habit such as a lot of drug use as someone who has made a personal choice to develop that habit, or has chosen to ignore it's existance while enacting it daily. There is the option to work against that habit, but the choice isn't made to. This isn't a blanket statement as I'm away that sometimes the chemical addiction and situaton work against a choice someone makes.

I'm just quickly going to note that Dave is like many of the quitee I know, they have a very strong opinion against what they used to do. This to me indicates that to go against the habit and addiction you really need to make a big mental change which requitres a lot of effort. Our brains are stubborn things, and habits are very hard to break.

Society and human nature does make it hard for people to not be influenced by those around them, be it drugs, fashion or fire breathing. But it shouldn't be that we are so controlled by our peers and to allow ourselves to do so is a weekness that shouldn't be allowed as an excuse. If we don't like what society tells us we should be, then remember that we are society and so have some measure of power to change.

I believe that I'm a responsible, educated, well balanced and self-assured enough individual to make my own choices as to what I do. I also, you may think arrogantly, believe that many people in this world aren't in this position. And I ask myself why should I be limited because of their failings?


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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:It is a good thing to avoid being limited by the failings of others.

With so many phobias floating around, if you were to be influences by them all you'd end up in Bedlam.

Raph


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:Now i think i have taken too many drugs or that was a quadruple post by dom eek! (afedavit that he'll probably delete them later making this paragraph nonsense)

Nicotene's a particularly nasty animal - more addictive than heroin or crack... because of it's habit rewarding properties. They're not all like that though, and indeed some aren't necessarily at all harmful... it's a confused issue which always makes me worry when people start talking about "drugs" full stop rather than subdividing it

Yet to know anyone who can't and hasn't at some point walked away from smoking weed when neccesary for example

But seen vaaaaaaaaast problems with nicotene and alcohol heh.

it's all a bit crazed with the legal boundaries not necessarily making any sense

but lots of 'young people' try drugs and walk away, never to touch them again

quote:Any type of smoke inhalation is deadly, be it fire smoke, tobacco, pot, or anything else. It isnt healthy.so are car fumes, so is paraffin and it's fumes, so are so many things

balance, as the bhuddists would point out, is the key - harmonious and graceful as the arc of a poi *ahem*


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:There is no reason to name off everything that is harmfull. There is just to much out there.

Dom, I disagree, an addiction is a habit and visa versa. I belive that just changing the name is an attempt to sugar coat things. however like we oth said there is more than one way to be addicted to something.

If somebody realy wants to change their life they must make a conscience descision about it. They must change their mind and force themselves to do it. It is like a diet.

Anybody can loose weight it takes a change of eating habits and the intestinal fortitude to go out and take on some physical activity.


It is always easier to talk about quitting than to do it, you will never hear me say it is easy. However I will always stand behind anyone who is willing to try.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Raymund, in some cases you are right...

However, there are a number of cases, some eating disorders included, which are caused by physical and chemical problems within the the body.

Usually, the disorder begins because of habit, but after a certain point, as in clinical depression, no amount of willpower will be able to overcome it, particularly with issues such as gambling, eating disorders and alcoholism.

Telling a clinically depressed person to "get over it" is as much use as yelling at an amputee to "get up and walk".

This is very different to other disorders, because part of the physical problem is the organ that makes the decision to change their life...A real catch-22!

Some people may be able to drag themselves out of these situations before a point of no-return is reached, but these people cannot be used to say that there is no point of no return for others.

Unfortunately, I still believe they are more accountable for their actions than anyone else, which is a hard and difficult concept for me to explain...but no one except a parent is truly responsible for anyone else's life...


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well... I know little about depression, but if a 400lbs obese guy can drop to less than what I weight, then anyone can do it.

No where though did I say that they just needed to get over it. Though sometimes a swift kick in the nuts can get some people in gear


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Raymond...it is exactly your attitude that I am trying to overcome in my previous post...

quote: I know little about depression, but if a 400lbs obese guy can drop to less than what I weight, then anyone can do it.
I'm sorry Raymond, but you are completely and utterly wrong if you use this rationale...

One person's personal situation does not have to have any bearing on a different persons' situation.

Just because both people may have weighed 400lbs, that doesn't mean that the reasons for them weighing that much are same.

One could have an eating disorder, where the signal the brain receives from the stomach to say it is full is not getting through.

So, this person goes on a strict diet and exercise regime where the bodys signals are completely ingnored, and the actual food itself is of a limited supply. He loses the weight.

Another person has a gentic predisposition to putting on fat (you know the people i mean), and has clinical depression which cannot be overcome without drugs. The only drugs safe for this person are ones that encourage wegiht gain. Plus, he can't afford healthy food as he's on a sickness benefit and can't work.

The only thing simialr about these two scenarios is that both of them may have weighed about 400lbs.

You cannot use one single example of humanity to base what other people can and cannot do. The world isn't like that, we are all different, physically, emotionally and environemntally.

This isn't to say there aren't a lot of similarities too, but they apply across hundreds and thousands of people at a time, not on two specific individuals.

If you applied this logic to other situations, say a man lives to the ripe old age of 135, then if he can do it, so can everyone else...

It just doesn't work that way.

My apologies if this post seems rather personal, it is simply that i have very strong feelings in this area...


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* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
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kaza
newbie
Location: England
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 29
Posted:Hmmm. Just made a post in the "Drug free spinning" thread, most of which should of been in here. Opps, but never mind


quote:Originally posted by RoDuS:
Well once you are on drugs you dont have any choices (imo).

I use smoke a little bit of weed i found the only way i could stop smoking it was i took up smoking tobaco and drinking a great deal off alcohol.

They are prolly just as bad for me if not worse but least they wont end me up in jail. but they will be alot easyer to give up then pot.

I coudn't imagine being addicted to a much harder drug but i am glad i have learnt that its not worth it so when the time comes i can say NO! I am worried that you might be a little disolusioned RoDuS. Or maybe its just that we both work differently.

I have been smoking weed for a good many years now, but it wasn't the first thing I tried. My first experence of drugs was magic mushrooms, which I picked myself. Friends of mine had been smoking for a while, but I never agreed with the health aspects of smoking. That is the main reason i tried mushies before ganga.

But I have still never smoked fags. Don't see any point, just to get addicted to something that doesn't really do anything for you. Occasionaly when say having a pint in the pub I can see how one would sort of be nice, in a socially, keep your fingers busy type of way, but have never started.

But I used to smoke about 1/4 of skunk a week, when i was working and could afford it. Every day after work the first thing I would want when I got home was a Jay, and I would often fancy one most of the day but I never smoked at work. After a while I decided to give up tobaco all together. No spliffs. and got myself a little pipe.

Within about two weeks of giving up tobaco I lost almost all cravings for a spliff. While at work I would still occasionaly feel I could do with a smoke, but then once I had actually got home and work I felt I no longer needed it because the stress of work was over for the day and I wasn't so addicted to the nicotine anymore.

I will say that there is something about smoking a spliff which is a lot more sociable than a pipe. Just seems more friendly for some reason. But recently I got told you can use Raspberry leaves instead of tobaco. Nowhere as harmful and not addictive. Slightly funny taste and you have to get used to skinning up with them.

I will admit that I ahve been smoking spliffs recently. I havn't had any of my own weed for a while due to lack of funds and its just sooo much easier.


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Doughnut
member
Location: Ealing
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 12
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Charles:
Raymund, in some cases you are right...

However, there are a number of cases, some eating disorders included, which are caused by physical and chemical problems within the the body.

Usually, the disorder begins because of habit, but after a certain point, as in clinical depression, no amount of willpower will be able to overcome it, particularly with issues such as gambling, eating disorders and alcoholism.

Telling a clinically depressed person to "get over it" is as much use as yelling at an amputee to "get up and walk".

This is very different to other disorders, because part of the physical problem is the organ that makes the decision to change their life...A real catch-22!

Some people may be able to drag themselves out of these situations before a point of no-return is reached, but these people cannot be used to say that there is no point of no return for others.

Unfortunately, I still believe they are more accountable for their actions than anyone else, which is a hard and difficult concept for me to explain...but no one except a parent is truly responsible for anyone else's life... You're either a psychiatrist or have spoken to some good ones. My dad is a psychiatrist and so I pick up some things... and what you said is perfectly accurate with what I've been tought. I'm not going to say anything save that I agree.


We are all empty in the middle...

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funkymonky
funkymonky

member
Location: oxford
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 192
Posted:i strongly agree with frostypaw on this one. like he said, its about will, not whether they have a choice or not. it might seem like a mile of difference, but in reality, a lot of people don't see the differnece. everyones got the choice to stop, the choice to get out of the social aspects which gives them access to whatever they are taking, but if they cant be botheed, thats their own fault. i'm not saying its not hard, and that its easy to stop doing whatever your doing, espeicaly if you're heavily dependant, but you've always got the choice to stop. blaming your addiction to a substance on your lack of will to sort yourself out is just pathetic.

anyone with oposing views... just try to tell me other wise...


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:actually i have to differ lol

after reading other posts on here i've gotta change some of what i said

it is down to will - but that's sometimes the will to ask for help or to talk to a friend honestly rather than to give up itself as that can be too hard

but then that relies on a certain optimism and not the "why bother" mentality ya get into when depressed :sad:

messy


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Necrus
Necrus

member
Location: Greece/Athens
Member Since: 17th Aug 2003
Total posts: 113
Posted:Drugs is a matter of trust to your own mind&spirit strength. . .

Surely it's negative for everything(maybe everything except having fun )but people just do drugs in order to avoid many bad situations...or because they're trying to escape reality,even for seconds. . .

Being under drugs influence&addiction is horrible . . . u cannot do anything right but lying on the floor . . .or spanking yourself on a dancefloor. . .

What people addicted to it need is a and a . . .


Metal Rulezzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:At some point in time you may find out that you just dont have the will power to get out of your hole.

I agree with Frosty, you do need to find someone else to help you at that stage.

If someone truly wants to change an item in their life, they can do it. It doesnt matter what it is, or how long it takes, they can do it. That is my hole point. Help may be required, that is up to the individual case. However they can change.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Now, where did I put my prozac?

And hey Ray quote:Drugs are addictive, there is no nonaddictive drug out there. Most people dont realise that they are addicted, they just think that they enjoy the high. Weather or not it is a chemical addiction doesnt matter. There is also social addiction and a physical addictionDo your comments apply to go-pill (dex amphetamine) as supplied to the US Air Force or are they only for civilians ?????


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stubbs
member
Location: Kingston
Member Since: 23rd Jul 2003
Total posts: 31
Posted:Raymund, by your definition, pretty much everything we ever do on a regular basis is an "addiction". I think you need to tighten up your scope a little, or clarify the additional characteristics.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, Stubbs is exactly right. By your definition, you are clearly addicted to poi because you repeat the experience and experience a desire to repeat the experience. And it most certainly makes you an alcoholic because I know you have drunk more than once.

Ok, there seems to be a lot of miseducation out there about abuse, addiction, and dependence. Let me give a quick treatise on these:

1) Abuse. Abuse is perhaps the most nebulous of terms used to describe the use of a substance. In the U.S. we consider any use of an illegal drug to be "abuse" because it's illegal and is therefore risky. With alcohol, we consider "abuse" to be any at-risk consumptive behavior including consumption of more than 4-5 drinks per day for men OR any situation in which alcohol use has led to negative consequences, such as a DUI or illness (if you wake up with a hangover, you abused alcohol the night before). Because illegal drugs are arbitrarily illegal, I personally believe that the same standard should be applied to illegal drugs that is applied to legal ones. That is to say that it is NOT abuse if your use of a substance is in moderation and does not lead to negative consequences.

2) Dependence. The most important thing I can say about dependence is that it is possible to be dependent on a substance without being addicted and it is possible to be addicted to a substance without being dependent! Dependence isn't always a necessarily bad thing, either. Many of us are dependent on glasses or various medications. Dependence is bad when it is applied to a drug for which there is no medical indication. Hospitalized patients often become dependent on morphine or other opioid analgesics because they have been on high doses. They are NOT addicted because if you simply taper the patient off the drug, the problem is solved. After being tapered off, if you show the patient an ampule of morphine and offer it to him, he'll refuse it because he doesn't need it. He was dependent, but was not addicted. Some people call dependence "physical addiction" but this is a meaningless term. There is no such thing as "physical addiction."

3) Addicton. Addiction is defined as the persistent and compulsive repetition of an activity (and it need not necessarily be drug use) in spite of harmful effects on the addict's health, social standing, or financial status. Addiction does not require drugs. People may be addicted to food (compulsive overeaters), sex, gambling, the internet, video games, etc. The common feature is that the compulsive use is harmful. The compulsive gambler repeatedly bets more money than he has, getting deeper and deeper into debt. The compulsive overeater eats more and more getting more and more obese. The compulsive drug user uses more and more drugs until job performance, social and family relationships, and financial status are harmed. In addition, addiction is associated with a seeking behavior where if access to the behavior is limited, the addict will seek the drug or a casino or a prostitute or whatever it is.

Addiction is a function of the addict, not of any substance. While certain substances are more often associated with addiction (the methylxanthine alkaloids like nicotine and caffeine, stimulants like cocaine and amphetamine, and opioids like heroin, to name a few), many individuals may use these substances and never even come close to addiction. Substances are not addictive in that it is not possible to ever say for sure whether using a given substance will result in addiction. People, however, may be prone to addiction. This is why I've been able to try nicotine, pot, alcohol, gambling, etc. and I've never become addicted.

Please understand that these are accepted medical definitions. It's dangerous to start throwing your own definitions of these words around without having carefully thought the ramifications through.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:hear hear it's good to see someone drawing the official line with their medical know-how to back it

someone might believe ya that way!


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Stubbs
member
Location: Kingston
Member Since: 23rd Jul 2003
Total posts: 31
Posted:Hey Lightning, thanks for the rundown, but where did you get those definitions from? I was under the understanding that there was still debate about what precisely "addiction" is, aside from the highly specialized definitions within specific occupations/organizations.

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Ali-bird
Ali-bird

member
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Jul 2002
Total posts: 102
Posted:Charles, I like your thinking, well said!

quote:Originally posted by Dm:
I believe that I'm a responsible, educated, well balanced and self-assured enough individual to make my own choices as to what I do. I also, you may think arrogantly, believe that many people in this world aren't in this position. And I ask myself why should I be limited because of their failings? I see your point Dom.

One more thing. There's a good amount of honest, non-sensationalist literature appearing on these subjects at the moment, but for me a key point is that people need to STOP referring to "Drugs" as one cover all, convenient title.

There are a great many non-addictive substances that people consume, and (imho) it's arrogant and lazy not to fully brief oneself on each and every one before making the kind of statements I've seen above.

Oh and Allen Carr - great example of Neuro Linguistic Programming at its best. Worked for me!


Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Stubbs, I'm a third year medical student. It's just one of those things I'm supposed to know.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:I love how its never the pro choice ppl who make totalitarian arguments...



OneWheel, the argument you make irt to the link between creativity and drug taking only works for you. Trying to generalise everyone who is creative into being depressed / outcast (and therefore drug escapists) is a little over the top. Sure there is a correlation between depression and escapist drug (ab)use. Some people who take drugs are creative. However, this doesnt mean everyone who is creative and takes drugs is depressed.



Josh



<small>[ 28. August 2003, 06:17: Message edited by: Josh ]</small>


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Ted Hodd
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Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 27th Aug 2003
Total posts: 8
Posted:I have seen so many of these drug arguments. We have had a culture of (mis?)information about drugs for coming onto 50 odd years now. I can only offer this piece of information; Ask yourself this: Upon what do I base my opinion?

Is it all from one source? Is it all from mainstream media? Was I told it down the pub? Am I merely listening to the indoctrination I've received? Is it my parent's line?

When I was 15 years old, I was a staunch anti-drug campaigner. My-oh-my I would have made any white christian right-wing male ecstatic with my point of view at that time. Since then I began questioning my knowledge in loads of different areas - e.g. why is it I like apples but not apple sauce?

Along this road I came across drugs and, to cut a very long and entertaining story short, decided that I was the best determinant for what was and wasn't good for me. It is my body. Whatever goes on below the skin is me, it's mine, I'll do with it what ever I will - with the caveat that I do not negatively impact those about me.

Since this strange episode in my life (it lasted about 5 years - s'probably still continuing) I've since largely lost my fear of death. It is something that is going to happen and I can't stop it. It's amazing how wonderful the world feels when you know you are dead anyway. I've never felt so free. I think this coincided with forays into buddhism.

We are all different. What's good for me would probably be terrible for somebody else. I've seen and done things that may spin your mind and I do not regret a single thing. IMHO there are no real right or wrong answers in life, merely different shades of so many colours that paint a picture of who you are. If you are happy with your picture then that's cool - just don't piddle on someone elses work of art


x


Spread good karma, and it will come round to you.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Josh:
I love how its never the pro choice ppl who make totalitarian arguments...

OneWheel, the argument you make irt to the link between creativity and drug taking only works for you. Trying to generalise everyone who is creative into being depressed / outcast (and therefore drug escapists) is a little over the top. Sure there is a correlation between depression and escapist drug (ab)use. Some people who take drugs are creative. However, this doesnt mean everyone who is creative and takes drugs is depressed.
I never said that everyone who is creative and takes drugs is depressed.

Thw whole creative/drugs thing was in response to the belief that drugs enhance creativity. As many artists and musicians use drugs there is a common assumption that drugs enhance creativity.

I was simply pointing out the the facts are equally well explained by the alternative hypothesis that creative people often have personal issues that lead them to take drugs.
quote:Originally posted by Josh:

The only thing we seem to agree on then, is that creative people are more likely to take drugs - and until you provide a link to a decent study supporting your hypothesis that creative people are outcasts / depressives / drug escapists I dont think your anecdotal evidence is enough to demonstrate the relationship you say exists.

We are left with the correlation that creative people are (for whatever reasons) more likely to take drugs.

Josh I actually don't agree with this, I know a lot of people who are not particularly creative and who take loads of drugs.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:For those of you who object to the lumping together of all drugs, I agree. Alcohol, nicotine, marijuana, pills, heroin, pharmacuticals etc etc are all different.

To me they have in common the fact that none are necessary to life or to happiness, and I have encountered many people in my life who believed that one or more of these substances was necessary to their happiness.

Furthermore, despite the fact that you can't believe everything you read in the news, it is certain that there are millions of people who cannot quit taking heroin/cigarettes/alcohol despite the fact that it is ruining their lives.

i.e. something weird has happened to their ability to choose.

The original post of this thread was about drugs/choice.

Marijuana, pills etc are not considered to be chemically addictive in the way the above are, nevertheless, where choice is concerned I believe they are relevant due to afformentioned peer/cultural pressure to take them.

Also, marijuana is helping to introduce and keep people hooked on nicotine.

Not sure what to say about the definitions of addiction issue, but I think by the definition given that cigarettes and heroin are definitly addictive as they are harmful and there is in the majority of users a compulsion to take them.

Apparently cigarettes cause more deaths than any other avoidable cause- that's serious. It's not a trivial matter when you consider that the next generation of our young is going to experience what amounts to a cull.

What will any of them gain from acquiring the habit? Ask them when they're young and it'll be the cool image or the relaxation provided by a smoke.

All illusions, it's not remotely cool to be compelled to have a carcinogenic stick dangling from the lips, the apparent relaxation is merely relief from the stress caused by the nicotine from the last cigarette leaving the body.

We are human beings and have the rare gift of being able to change ourselves, we don't need any of the above substances to be happy.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

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