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onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
In another thread about drug free spinning a few people said that taking drugs or not was a matter of personal choice.

I feel a little uneasy about applying that phrase to drugs as they tend to be addictive or habit forming substances.

i.e. they effectivly diminish or remove the ability to make choices. for example, someone who has never smoked can choose whether or not to light and smoke a cigarette, but someone who has a thirty a day habit and is severely addicted to nicotine no longer has that choice.

There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.

Whilst some drugs are considered non addictive, due to peer pressure and the pro drug marketing that is rife in our culture, choice is effectivly reduced.

I know that people shouldn't be influenced by such things, but humans are extremely suseptible to this- there wouldn't, for example, be so many drinks promotions if promotions didn't work.

The sad thing is that the young are most suseptible to this pro drug propaganda.

I was wondering what those of you who believe that taking drugs is a matter of personal choice, thought about this?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
Hmmm... interesting charles. I will agree with the impairment of the "no" option, but I rely more on the social reasons for this. For instance, if you've been smoking for an extended amount of time, most of the people you are around probably still do while you may want to quit. This most assuradly makes quitting much, much harder as you are not only giving up something you like, addicting or not, and still trying to exist in the same environment. A complete change in attitude both internal AND external can have far easier effects, which is why rehab clinics work great, but when they get out, they go right back: same environment.

Now with the education aspect, I think this is a little off. If kids were told about the actual biological danger they are in taking this or that drug, instead of having "Just say no" shoved down their throat, I think they would have a much better understanding to make their choice. But what if some of the info we are told is vastly exagerated, and telling the "truth" would make more people willing to experiment? This is undoubtedly true in the case of pot, as most people would realize that it is less dangerous than alcohol. None the less, I think that an adequate education would also help those who aren't going to partake to know the real reasons WHY they have made that decission. After all, it is THEIR choice, and I don't know about everyone else, but I tend to want as much information as possible about my life choices prior to making them.

Also, I am of the mentality that I will try anything once. Excluding certain kinds of perversion and, yes, even some kinds of drugs. I like to know where people are coming from.

CharlesBRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand


Posted:
Also interesting, I8Beefy, is why you said
quote:
but I rely more on the social reasons for this.
I'm not sure where it says in my post that I am talking chemical reasons for the "no" choice to becme impaired... There was no actual reason given at all.

The same goes for education. I'm not just talking goverment education such as schools and social programmes. I'm talking about general exposure from every source possible. Life education, if you will (which includes schools).

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KaliBRONZE Member
member
577 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany


Posted:
There have been lots of really interesting opinions and viewpoints posted in this thread and I just wanted to post mine, while trying not to go too off topic.

Basically what I think is that it is all a matter of potential. Drugs have the potential to be addictive. People have the potential to become addicted to things. When these two variables intersect, the ability to choose is at least greatly impaired, if not lost. To try to blanket statement all these things only serves to attack people. Either drug users will be attacked as addicts that won't admit their addiction or addicts are attacked as being weak-willed, or something else. This like everything else in life is not that simple.

I spent almost two years working with addicts and can say that they are some of the strongest, brightest people I know and some of them are still using. I would NEVER say that they suffer from a lack of will, just as I would never say that the people I have known that are no longer actively participating in their addictions necessarily have a strong will. It takes all kinds and sometimes stopping drug use is a matter of luck and timing. Having said that, I just want to ask people to really think about what they are saying. As I said before, when they make big balnket statements like, "its just a matter of will" or something like that, I feel like they are attacking some of the most beautiful, strongest, most humane people I have had the pleasure of knowing. Hope I answered some of something somewhere in there.

Beauty is the conscious sum of all our perversions.-Salvador DaliHope without action is hopeless.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I agree fully with you on the falsity of the 'it's a matter of will' thing.

It's a widespread myth that addiction can be overcome by will, and that addicts lack willpower.

The factors that lead to some people becoming addicted are far more subtle.

The belief that addicts are weak willed, stupid etc is not only untrue but harmful because it disguises the fact that anyone can become addicted.

I've mentioned Allen Carr's book, the 'Easy Way to Give up Smoking' on other threads, and would recommend anyone who wants to get a different perspective on addiction, and it's relationship to will, to read it.

Allen Carr is an example of a man in control of every other aspect of his life, and a strong willed individual, who found himself smoking 120 cigarettes a day, and unable to stop.

He found that understanding the nature of his addiction was far more powerful than willpower.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
This thread is seems more about people standing on soap boxes postulating personal opinions which comes across as "few facts in a sea of speculation".

quote:
Salva Divinorum, Datura, Liberty caps, Fly Agairc and Peyote, ALL of these substances are perfectly legal and Datura is one of the most dangerous plants about, even,
Not in my country, they’re not. Ditto on datura; very bad.

Yeah, and btw btw most modern products/drugs were originally plant compounds, even the semi-synthetics are plant based, hey

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
how was mr carr able to control the rest of his life? i'm guessing will is similar to desire. i don't think people who are unable to give up smoking are weak willed or lack desire to give up there addiction. i would say they are unwilling or unable to define/know the reason/cause of there need to be addicted. of course it isn't simple and it takes a great deal of effort and surpport to find these answers. but at some point a decision is made and that decision is made to stop continuing the addictive behavour.

the argument or suggestion that people are able to live normal lifes or even very productive lives misses the point. each of us comes to this world with given ablities, drugs of any kind impair ones ablities to some degree. one should compare themselves to themselves not some norm that is used conveintly to justified their impairing behavours.

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Itsgottab:
how was mr carr able to control the rest of his life? i'm guessing will is similar to desire.
My understanding of it is that on the continuum, from desire, to will; desire lies on the end of the scale where we have little control; will is towards the end where we do have control.

So our desires arise from the subconscious and we can't choose what they are, we can't choose, for example, to feel desire for a food we dislike.

Will is an application of our rational mind to achieve something which may be the opposite of our desire.

So an addict will desire the substance he/she is addicted to and will have to employ will to combat it.

However, I would say that will in this sense is not the 'willpower' that many believe addicts to lack.

Willpower is an unrefined aspect of will consisting of just deciding to do (or not do) something and then using sheer discipline.

This can work, but the addict may then spend the rest of their lives constantly fighting the desire for the substance.

A more intelligent approach is to understand as fully as possible the cause/origin of the desire and then develop effective ways (using the will) to stop it arising.

So, where cigarettes are concerned for example; it may mean dismantling some of the habitual ideas that you subconsciously associate with nicotine.

Many people believe that cigarettes relax them, this means that when tense a desire for a smoke will arise. If they come to fully understand that a cigarette merely sedates the stress caused by the nicotine from the previous cigarette leaving the body, then the desire will be weakened.(i.e. the stress is actually caused by the smoking)

Obviously it will take more than this, but many addictive desires are supported by such beliefs, and each belief that is removed weakens that desire.

Relating this to the issue of choice, we get a picture where we see that much of what we call 'choice' is in fact the bubblings of our subconscious.

This is not generally a bad thing, but when those bubblings lead us to do things that are destructive we need to think about using our will to change the set of desires that are habitually ours.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
i am using the word desire in the sense that i desire that lady over their, thats conscious as far as i can tell. i don't accept the freuds concept of our being, if thats what your're referring to?

so the desire to go outside for example incorprates some sort of feeling, rather than a running through of the pro and cons of going outside(rationality), or is feeling just ultra quick rational thinking.

everything we do is a choice, of course there are influences, but that is the reason for their being a choice, if their were no influences their would be no choices. because we don't cover all possible influences before we make decisions and almost definitly change those influences considered without making the decision to do so(we aren't rational beings, we are superior to rationality we have degres of intuition) we are making decisions free from fate and the limits of choice, confused?.


it has been well established that education alone doesn't make a sginificant difference in behavour modification. i learnt this from both university and an alcohal and drug info line course a few years back now.

the models i was taught involved a cycle and the individual knowing their cycle. by being given alternatives at given points on their cycle of addiction say, the addictive action could be broken. but the deeper cause of the cycle is not addressed.

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Well that's all fine and dandy, all this "desire" and "will-power" stuff, but it seems a bit like text book speculation to me.

What about gym-junkies that become addicted to the continued production of endorphins by their own bodies? Also, are not some addictions cause by the low natural production of certain chemicals, and people compensates for this low natural production by using or doing something that elevates the levels of these chemicals in the body. Like the SSRI (prozac type) anti-depressants elevate the level of seratonin in the brain, presumable to supplement a low natural production. And are not "thrill-seekers" driven because their body only produces low levels of dopermine? And wot about people who self-medicate with weed to try and cure more serious problems? Perhaps, just perhaps some addictions are organic in nature. I mean how popular is Prozac and other ssri happy pills"??????????

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
as for the gym junkies, if they are addicted the same applies to them as any addicted person, is it healthy?we are whole human beings, if one activity dominates to the detremete of the whole being, it results in problems for the sufferer their associates and everyone else, although the degree of course reduces the futher you go from the source. they are also in a position where their ablity to choose is impaired by the addiction all be it chemical to excersie

interesting point about those suffering from body chemical states, are they addicts though? or are you suggesting we are all on a continunum, and that some people have reduced ablity to make decisions because of body chemistry? prehaps. it sounds like an excuse someone might make for not wanting to change, or start making constructive choices in their lives, not suggesting thats you.

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Wot I meant was perhaps there is a “genetic predisposition” for some addictions. Like, alcoholism runs in some families for example. And what about the addiction to "greed" and that new wide-screen telly?

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
i don't beleive so, alcholism is a dsyfunction of the mind. it involves thought processes. genitics effect your ablity to learn but it would seem its a stretch to say they can effect the in which the mind functions. the alchol doesn't make the alcholic, its the minds use of it to regulate the mind itself. expressed best it 'whats your poison'

there isn't much balance in this world we live in, espeacialy in peoples veiw of themselves and their material wellbeing. the state of mental anxiety that exist amongst us makes people behave in addictive ways. we like to be where we are valued, things are fimilar and we are in control, that makes us naturally attracted to places and people who give us these feelings. so we feel controlled by the world and so essentially out of control. i am sorry but god must step in here. God being the creative force behind the existence of all things, or whatever you understand god to be. if one seeks peace and turth from god(god resides within us) peace and turth will be given, then the world has no power over you and hence addiction is no more and life turns into something mysteriously wonderful.

Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
as a young man frostypaw you have yet to accept your limitations and that with god there are no limits. but lets not go there.

Ali-birdmember
102 posts
Location: London


Posted:
I wish I had time to read this whole thread in detail, so forgive me if I'm repeating or anything.

I've tried a lot of different substances, some legal and some not, in the past. I've enjoyed many, if not most, of them. I am a fully functioning, sociable, happy and well adjusted human being with a job, a family, good friends, and I'm enjoying life to it's fullest. In fact, I firmly believe without some of the experiences I've had on certain substances I wouldn't appreciate the world anywhere near as much as I do now.

Human beings have always had a desire - nay, a need - to get wasted, for as far back as records go. It's a natural function for people to try and push mental and physical boundaries back in the search for knowledge/enlightenment/whatever, or indeed just to alter one's state of mind on a temporary basis, even if only for FUN!

To my mind, any mechanism which tries to prevent that is only interested in preventing people asking questions and, for want of a better word, controlling the masses.

For those who would question that assertion, please remember that prior to 1900 practically ALL of the naturally occurring substances which are now controlled as Class A, Schedule 1 or whatever were legal and used throughout the echelons of society.

If you're interested in the subject and willing to look at a different perspective on the subject of intoxication of all kinds, you should grab a copy of a book called "Out of It" by Stuart Walton - it's a really interesting read and fleshes out the argument I've touched on above really well.

I'd love for someone who currently believes "drugs are bad" to read this book and then come back to me with the same belief afterwards. I've only met people who already agree with me who have read it so far, I'm intrigued by what someone who has been (imho) brainwashed by the state on the issues would think.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/

0241140382/qid=1063029670/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/202-5374291-9122229

Hopefully I can come back and read more of this thread properly later. All I can say at the moment is that I believe in personal responsibility, and that if I wish to ingest something into my body, whatever it is, that should be my choice, not a Government's.

Ali xx

(EDIT - take out the spaces between ASIN/ and 024 to get the link, it was making the page too wide, sorry!!)

Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Just another quick reminder that we're trying to keep this thread on topic i.e. not posting the pros and cons of drugs but sticking to the issue of choice.

Neither is it about whether drugs should be legal or not.

All these things are interesting, but, as we've already seen they result in going off topic and it would be better to discuss then on a new thread.

Ali-Bird, it sounds like you've got an interesting perspective, and the book sounds intriguing; maybe you could relate some of what it says to the issue of choice?

As we're on a new page I've cut and pasted the intial post below: -

quote:
Originally posted by onewheeldave:
In another thread about drug free spinning a few people said that taking drugs or not was a matter of personal choice.

I feel a little uneasy about applying that phrase to drugs as they tend to be addictive or habit forming substances.

i.e. they effectivly diminish or remove the ability to make choices. for example, someone who has never smoked can choose whether or not to light and smoke a cigarette, but someone who has a thirty a day habit and is severely addicted to nicotine no longer has that choice.

There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.

Whilst some drugs are considered non addictive, due to peer pressure and the pro drug marketing that is rife in our culture, choice is effectivly reduced.

I know that people shouldn't be influenced by such things, but humans are extremely suseptible to this- there wouldn't, for example, be so many drinks promotions if promotions didn't work.

The sad thing is that the young are most suseptible to this pro drug propaganda.

I was wondering what those of you who believe that taking drugs is a matter of personal choice, thought about this?



[ 11. September 2003, 00:53: Message edited by: onewheeldave ]

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Ali-birdmember
102 posts
Location: London


Posted:
Apologies Onewheeldave, as I said I didn't have time to read the topic in full, I shall endeavour to stay on topic in future. Again, apologies if I repeat anything!

On the issue of choice - human beings make choices based on the information available to them, and based on the experiences of their peers - that is an unavoidable fact. Problems only arise when the information they are given is controlled, or mistaken.

Let's take a more innocuous choice, like what brand of cola to buy. We are bombarded constantly with messages (advertising) telling us one brand is superior to another, and broadly speaking if your peers opt for one brand, so will you. You make a choice based on the info available.

My personal belief is that the main problem people face right now is that the information we are being given about various substances (I won't call them drugs as that is in itself a prejudicial word and projects a negative image straight away) is at best flawed and at worst wildly inaccurate.

In my youth, I knew people who ended up sniffing solvents and on seeing what happened to them, avoided those people and their habits like the plague. I was happy to believe the line taken at school that "drugs are bad" and I should stay away from them.

Much later in life, I met people who took ecstasy and hallucinogenics through mutual friends. They "used drugs" in a wholly more positive way, gaining new perspectives and experiences and suffering (from what one can observe easily in the company of others) no ill effects.

This did not sit correctly with information I had been previously given, so I started researching for myself in science journals, on the internet and so on, in order that I could make an informed choice. Much of the information I found was conflicting with what I saw and what I read on more, erm, open-minded sites.

So, I decided the only correct course of action - the only logical "choice" - was to find out for myself.

This relates back to the book I mentioned inasmuch as human beings are naturally curious, and just because one party advises another not to do something (whether that's climb a mountain or eat a magic mushroom), doesn't mean another will not find a reason to try.

While flawed research (particularly into Ecstasy use), which is later disproved by other scientists, is published and continues to be the basis for lawmaking, young people in particular will continue to reject what the establishment claims is true and instead rely on the more tangible evidence of their friends and peers, making their own choice.

I fully believe that people should be given as much information as possible and then be allowed to make their own, informed, choice.

There's a bunch of other stuff attached to this to do with individual rights and expression but I won't bore you with it or go off the subject too far.

Hope at least some of that makes sense! Gotta get back to work right now but I shall pop back later, hope this is kinda food for thought.

Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I'm glad you brought up informed choice and the cola example.

What you're talking about is pretty much the concern raised in my initial post i.e. that peoples choice is influenced by marketing and peer pressure.

I guess I was focusing on the more insiduous aspects of marketing such as the fact that much of it isn't there to tell us ways in which a product is superior to it's rivals, but instead to associate it with irrelevant factors e.g. associating cola with sporting heroes.

The insiduous types of advertising/marketing do work, an example is the , now banned, subliminal type.

So, even though some people can see through marketing and be uninfluenced, the majority can't and end up buying a particular brand believing that they have chosen it, whereas, in reality, they have been influenced.

So, what do people reckon is the situation there? Are those people still making a choice. Or is this where we would say they're choosing, but it's not an informed choice? (maybe we could call it an 'influenced choice')

Before taking this further I just want to check if this sounds reasonable to everyone, as there is no point trying to relate this line of reasoning to drugs if everyone reckons that it's incorrect.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Itsgottab, I do believe that alcoholism and other addictions could, in-part, be due to dysfunctions of the mind. Or instead of dysfunctios of the mind, say chemical imbalances. Like they use psychostimulant medications (amphetamines) to treat add/adhd by improving the function of chemicals in the brain that help regulate attention and activity (dopamine and norepinephrine).


British boffins have now invented a vaccine to prevent smoking, does this mean smoking is a disease??? And should ALL childern be vaccinated???

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Ali-birdmember
102 posts
Location: London


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone:
Itsgottab, I do believe that alcoholism and other addictions could, in-part, be due to dysfunctions of the mind. Or instead of dysfunctios of the mind, say chemical imbalances. Like they use psychostimulant medications (amphetamines) to treat add/adhd by improving the function of chemicals in the brain that help regulate attention and activity (dopamine and norepinephrine).


British boffins have now invented a vaccine to prevent smoking, does this mean smoking is a disease??? And should ALL childern be vaccinated???

First of all I don't believe for a second that all children should be "vaccinated" against smoking! My strongest beliefs politically and socially are in a) Personal Responsibility and b) Personal choice. The above would both remove the choice and the responsibility from the individual, which is never a good thing, even with something as insidious as nicotine.

And at the risk of ranting like the Allen Carr disciple I am, giving up smoking is EASY. You just have to get into the right mindset. But I digress, this is about drugs and choice, innit. Sorry.

Going back to your first point above again, we are making the mistake of assuming that all drugs are addictive. They are not.

I make this statement based on the fact that there are many millions of people "using" alcohol every day who are not addicted to it, as well as many who are. It is the *person* who is addictive in nature, not the drug.

So I spose what I'm saying is that we can't use this as a catch-all discussion about "drugs" and choice because certain drugs are different in nature from others and affect individuals in different ways.

Surely this makes it very difficult to legislate for everyone? Why should I be prevented from making a choice to use a particular substance because someone else is incapable of using it in moderation??

Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?


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