Page:
DeepSoulSheepGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland


Posted:
I'm not a veggie, I'm a tomato.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.


Motaddict
666 posts
Location: Netherlands


Posted:
I was sitting in a grill bar once when i was twelve, I had ordered a big stake, and i was waiting for it. Then I noticed that the seats were made out of cow hide, all sorts of heads, skulls and horns on the walls. Then I got the steak slapped down in front of me!
Another sponto-veggie,
11 years later still have'nt eaten any meat.

Come forth and thou shalt win enternal happiness. but he came fifth so he won an electric toatser.


DarkFairyQueenmember
557 posts
Location: The Underworld


Posted:
Same thing happened to me a few years back. It got to the point where I'd feel sick everytime I ate meat, despite the fact I still enjoyed the taste.
I stopped eating all meat, completely cut it off. But then I started going out with this guy who's mum was always cooking the most amazing meaty dishes, and I couldn't resist.

It lasted for a year in all. I think I needed this experience to confirm the fact that I'm a true carnivore at heart

So go for it. However it turns out, be happy with it. Don't feel guilty if you start eating meat again, we have canines for a reason after all

Take it as it comes xx

Az abouve, So below...


Fire Monkeymember
176 posts
Location: Chandlers Ford (near Soton)UK


Posted:
Well i think i've ranted to you about my vegetarianism,(sorry if i rant to much)
I can't remember why,when or what made me vegetarian(a bad one).I find i do feel a lot better after a stint without meat.

I really like meat, i just like vegetables more.

Everyone should just eat what they want and call it vegenivor!!!

Every ones a monkey!
Yes even you!


Pink...?BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom


Posted:
I eat meat but i dont know why but i'm starting to go off it, i only eat meat occasionally now. Don't quite know why though? The taste is ok, and i don't mind the fact it comes from animals.

I think everyone should eat what they like. I like Fire Monkey's vegenivor!

Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...


flidBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
i was almost vegetarian for most of my teen life, and have been vegan for the past 4 years. At the most basic level, whilst there is any doubt as to whether animals experience pain, suffering etc I want to play no part in their captivity and murder. Thus for the same reasons that I'm involved in human rights activism/campaigning and boycott companies who abuse humans, i apply the same ethics to animals. There are many parallels which can be drawn to the way that humans treat other humans and humans treat animals for their own selfish vices (experimentation, forced captivity, slavery, murder etc). Through work with amnesty international i've read cases of many atrocities etc involving humans which are barbaric and sickening, and yet these same practices towards animals are commonplace in this country, they just have good PR, tv advertising and shiney packaging. In the last hundred years or so the attitude towards human to human has greatly improved (in my country at least), I hope that today's vegetarians and vegans are the start of the next hundred year's attitude towards animals.

I too grew up with meat and therefore like the taste of it, but i haven't touched the stuff in years and can't see myself doing for the rest of my life.

On a side note, isn't a 'vegenivor' called an omnivore?

FlamingMonkeymember
50 posts
Location: Colchester


Posted:
i thought an omnivore eat both meat and vegetation.

vegetarianism is a strange thing, i mean some people will eat chicken but call themselves a vege. personally i think i would be a vege, if i couldn't, but my whole diet is meat-based.

but my motives would be for my own health as opposed to the animals.

Although you don't agree, i have trouble with thinking of animals as equal with humans. i value human life more.

Monkey see, Monkey do...


FyreFlyemember
26 posts
Location: PHX, Arizona


Posted:
I thought I was clever sneaking into my friend's science class in High School. I just walked right in and sat down as pretty as you please thinking I was so clever - the teacher didn't notice I was not supposed to be there and cutting out of another class to be there 00000H Rebel

Anywho I got in on the class that was disecting fetal pigs-Yeah super clever right?!?

That day I thought hard about our four legged friends and what we do to them and Viola! No Meatty!

Yesterday I thought I could not.
Today I am certain I can.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by FlamingMonkey:
i thought an omnivore eat both meat and vegetation.

vegetarianism is a strange thing, i mean some people will eat chicken but call themselves a vege. personally i think i would be a vege, if i couldn't, but my whole diet is meat-based.

but my motives would be for my own health as opposed to the animals.

Although you don't agree, i have trouble with thinking of animals as equal with humans. i value human life more.

Maybe whether animals are equal to humans or not is irrelevant, maybe it's more to do with the fact that they're having their lives taken so that humans can eat their bodies.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
I had a friend with a neighbor who was raising two cows to be slaughtered. One night while under the influence of some heavy hallucinagenics I had a talk with one of them (Laugh all you want, but I could call him over to me and weird stuff like that... oh and his name was Demetrius ), and that set me on the path to vegetarianism. I havn't eaten a whole lot of meat since then, every once in a while when I feel like I'm in dire need of some meat vitamins or minerals I eat some, but that's a very rare occasion.

As for eating chicken, and other white meats, you have to realize that people do it for different reasons. Some do it cause they have a "Don't hurt the aminals!" attitude, some do it for religious beliefs (Cows are sacred), some due it for health benefits (Red meat is bad for you). Of course chicken is about the WORST meat you can eat, because they litterally float in a vat of their own feces and other yummy bacteria infested stuff during their preperation to be sold to you. I won't touch chicken after seeing that video

I take a more Native American approach to it, because I expand my empathy even beyond animals, to plants, which obviously I still eat. Just cause they move slower and can't vocalize complaint they are still living bags of awareness. It's a respect issue for me. I recognize that I have to eat some things to survive, and I just appologize in my own way privatly. This is also why some people who claim vegetarianism are ok with eating free range meat and cosher meats.

FlamingMonkeymember
50 posts
Location: Colchester


Posted:
Yeah but in most cases the animals in question were born purely for the purpose of being eaten.

Why should i have to apologise for feeding myself whether it be plants or animals. have respect for them sure, but don't cut yourself up over it.

Monkey see, Monkey do...


flidBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Yeah but in most cases the animals in question were born purely for the purpose of being eaten.
fair enough, but what about children that are born for slavery? Is it cool for people to be labour slaves, sex slaves etc just because their mother gave birth to them so they could make money for the rest of the family? Personally i disagree.

quote:
Why should i have to apologise for feeding myself whether it be plants or animals
You shouldn't have to appologise for anything which you don't feel to be ethically/morally wrong. If you do appologise in such a case, then the appology has no meaning (it's like when you're a kid and your parents make you appologise for something).

On the same tip, personally i wouldn't be able to live with myself if i continued to practice something which i thought was ethically/morally wrong when there's perfectly viable alternatives available.

I agree with onewheeldave's statement and I too value human life over animal (in the whole burning building with baby and dog scenario i would choose the baby - it's my species), but it's just a lesser extent. I do however value animal life over what i'd like to have for lunch today, what cosmetics, clothes, household goods etc i buy or whether or not it's convient or trendy to do something. People in general seem to
have a misconception about vegans valueing animal life way above human life, but in my experience this is not the case - i'm way more involved in human rights issues than i am animal. Whilst there is a label for people who don't support animal suffering there isn't for human suffering, just as i boycott animal products i also boycott products and companies abusing human rights.

The simple fact of the matter is that we live (well, anyone who has an internet connection and is reading this anyway) in a society where we have choice, we have supermarkets with tens of thousands of products and in a world where there are countless millions of vegans and vegetarians (don't forget all of the buddhist/simular religious nuns and monks in the east) leading perfectly healthy lives. Most of the myths about animal products being the only sources of vitamins/minerals are post war propogranda to convince people to eat their own country's products. I haven't drunk milk in years and i haven't fallen down with rickets yet, infact I've never been healthier or allergy free. Maybe I just like living on the edge?

If i was in the scenario where I had to kill to live then i would. I have way more respect for people in countries where they eat to survive than someone who goes down the supermarket or stands in mcdonalds and chooses off the menu. But i don't, i live in a country where by being vegan i can only buy a few thousand ingrediants, vegetarian tens of thousands and non vegetarian hundreds of thousands. It's not exactly life or death is it? If i were killed for food and told that it's ok because although the the person who did it did so because they liked the taste of me more than the vegetarian option, but they also respected me, then that's just really no justification to my death. Without wanting to sound too cheesy (and ironically i'm not christian) i try to do onto others as i'd want to be done myself.

I do not wish to preach, and I hope people who read this don't find it comes across that way - most of my friends are non vegetarians. It's purely the way i feel about such issues

[ 02. August 2003, 10:09: Message edited by: flid ]

DaiTenshimember
104 posts
Location: Stillwater, OK


Posted:
The only thing that would get me to switch to a vegetarian diet would be health reasons.

Hell, when I need to drop weight for a tournament, nothing beats a dry salad ^_^

I'm moving to Japan in less than a month, I expect my consumption of meat to go way down (fish will go way up, but in general veggies have won the damned day). In the long run it'll probably be good for me...... doesn't mean I won't crave a steak from time to time.

Still, if you don't want meat, fine for you ^_^

No one knows me like I do.


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
On the health issue, I am SOOOOO way more healthy than I was when I ate meat. It was really incredible how much better I felt after learning to eat all the "rabbit food" I used to dismiss. I was more a carnivore than omnivore, hehe. Now I'm the other extreme. Valuation of life is understandable, it's the simple basis between sympathy and empathy. I can sympathize with the cow because it is like me, but I feel empathy for the human because it is exactly like me.

As I said, it comes down to a respect issue for me. Does the bear not eat fish because it is an omnivore? No. Does the lion feel bad about it's carnivore nature? No again. How about plants, how do plants feel? For some people it is in their nature to eat meat, for others not. Shouldn't feel bad about your nature, after all its who we are, and denying it only causes unneeded stress. But my "appologizing" is taken out of context. I meant only to draw the parallel between my feelings towards plants AND animals. Most humans, vegetarian or not, thinks nothing of the plant that died to feed you, but I do. As I have sympathy extending beyond the animal kingdom, my "appology" extends thus as well. Ergo, "Sorry I'm eating you, but one day I will be food for you". Just as one day I could be attacked and eaten by a mountain lion (unlikely, but possible). Should I hate that creature for following its nature? Well, I don't think so anyway. But if it came to me defending myself against one and I killed it, I would most certainly appologize to it, and then cut it up and eat it.

Further more, if there's nothing wrong with eating meat, let's take it the other way. Why not eat humans? No, I'm quite serious. It is the most tender meat on earth, and there are tribes in some areas that eat their dead to this day (modern day canibals, which has such a terrible connotation to it). Seems like a much better use of the meat then sealing it in a box where all it can feed are bugs. I mean the persons gone, so why not?

And I am not being morbid for the sake of grossing anyone out, just making a point. And I just wanna say, "Cannibal: The Musical" is one of my favorite movies.

PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
Without propigating a debate this is what I have to say on the topic...

Anyone who has done any form of horticulture or serious paganism will tell you that plants indeed have "feelings" and respond to stimuli on a more "emotional" level. When you talk to it or play music for them they flourish. Neglected except for basic care they do tend to dwindle. They have auras that can be manipulated, just as ever living, breathing thing does.
Fruitarians are those who will only eat what has already fallen. They are the absolutes.

Now, to those who are vegetarian on principle I ask, do you wear cotton clothing? Are you aware that cotton, wool, silk and most natural fabrics are just as deadly to animals as eating meat thanks to pesticide use? Do you make an effort to spend the hundreds of dollars on an all natural hemp wardrobe?

Health reasons I understand, fully, and can empathize with. And for the omnivoric arguement, what about most bird that will eat both meat and seed? Are we not akin to them?

We are part of the food chain for purpose. Yes that purpose has been blown out of proportion thanks to industrialization but in the very basis of natural tendencies, we are contenders. And looking through to ancient humano history, there were soooooo many cultures which involved cannibalism, and even might still be today. It is a religiously created society that tells us it is morally wrong to do so, not our bodies. To me this is the same idea behind why we don't have more nursemaids rather than drink animal milk, though we know it takes an hour for our body to process cow milk.

I also feel that based on how we were raised we are either more prone to be carnivorous or vegetarian, that to ideally be omnivorous would require more energy towards achieving balance than what most of us care to expend.

In the end I truly feel vegetarianism should be more a personal whole body decision rather than an activistic principle. Either way, my eating habits are totally guided by what vitamins and minerals my body needs, and that is what I crave. Sometimes I have a vegetarian day, sometimes carnivorous, either way...I have a stove and know how to use it!

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


flidBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
alas due to a combination of aol (don't ask, i'm staying with my parents for a month or so and they pay for it) making really stable software and disconnecting me as i hit post, and MSIE taking me back to clear message window when i clicked back, you won't be reading the reply i just spent 30 minutes writting.

Basically pele, i agree totally with some of the points you raised, and not at all with others. If you're (un)lucky enough then perhaps I'll write out my reasons again tomorrow night, but right now i'm too tired and uploading pictures of NYC getting buried on Brighton beach before going to bed

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
For those of you who, in some way, use the 'feelings' of plants to justify consumption of animals, it may be worth considering the well known fact that to obtain our food from animals involves approximately 10 times more plants dying than if we just ate the plants directly.

i.e. we can feed a population on x amount of plants, or raise animals which will comsume 10 times that amount of plants to feed the same population.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


DentrassiGOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
i think we should take a leaf from douglas adams, and genetically engineer a cow that actually wants to be eaten - then all problems are solved

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Dentrassi:
i think we should take a leaf from douglas adams, and genetically engineer a cow that actually wants to be eaten - then all problems are solved
In a similar vein we could take a race and brainwash/condition their chidren into wanting to serve us as slaves, thus making slavery morally acceptable.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


DentrassiGOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
its better to eat an animal that wants to be eaten, than an animal that doesnt.

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.


falloutboySILVER Member
remember
433 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, Milky Way, Universe


Posted:
About one month ago i converted to vegetarianism - mostly due to spending time with a vegan friend.

The way i see it, we basically need to consume energy to survive, and our greatest source of energy is the sun - but we as a species are unable to absorb and convert this energy directly into the form we need. Plants on the other hand can do exactly that - convert sunlight into glucose - how convenient! So we need to consume plants to survive - but hey look, here's a whole bunch of other animals with the same idea - why don't we let them forrege around eating the plants, then we'll eat them - it'll save us time and effort! So we can do that.. and we have been.. and therefore that's how we've evolved (K9 teeth etc.) It's not necessarily that we were 'designed' to eat meat.

We don't really know why we're here or what we're supposed to be doing, so our best guide is to observe nature and simply try to find our place. And the fact is, in nature, sentient beings kill and consume other sentient beings - life is ended to further other life. The difference with us is, that we have evolved to the level at which we are intelligent enough to make a choice. We have the knowlege and ability required to survive without consuming sentient beings.

So anyway, it's probably best not to listen to people who talk about 'right' and 'wrong' in this life - what's right for you is right for you. So do as you choose, but understand that it is your choice.

blah. etc.

[ 04. August 2003, 03:23: Message edited by: falloutboy ]

-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by falloutboy:
We don't really know why we're here or what we're supposed to be doing, so our best guide is to observe nature and simply try to find our place. And the fact is, in nature, sentient beings kill and consume other sentient beings - life is ended to further other life. The difference with us is, that we have evolved to the level at which we are intelligent enough to make a choice. We have the knowlege and ability required to survive without consuming sentient beings.

I think you're spot on with this.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
I've always thought that on a purley biological (or evolutionary) level - we're omnivores: We have canines and molars, we have an appendix but we also have a very large colon.
I could never be a vegetarian as firstly I enjoy meat way to much and secondly I don't think it's natural.

I'm probably viewed by many as a hypocrite - I only eat "Happy Meat" (Free Range et al) whenever possible and do disagree with many mass-farming methods but without modern farming techniques wouldn't the world be in a much worser state? Surely if we can produce large amounts of food in order to help out starving countries (and yes, I know alot of the food gets eaten where it's made) it's worth the discomfort/inhumanity of the animals... Perhaps not, but I don't see that we can sit here complaining about how badly animals are treated to feed us when if they changed back to purely organic food - food aid would surely plummet. (Admittedly this pure specualtion, I haven't done any research...)

Very contraversial I know, but heck - it's an opinion

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Durbs:
I've always thought that on a purley biological (or evolutionary) level - we're omnivores: We have canines and molars, we have an appendix but we also have a very large colon.
I could never be a vegetarian as firstly I enjoy meat way to much and secondly I don't think it's natural.

I'm probably viewed by many as a hypocrite - I only eat "Happy Meat" (Free Range et al) whenever possible and do disagree with many mass-farming methods but without modern farming techniques wouldn't the world be in a much worser state? Surely if we can produce large amounts of food in order to help out starving countries (and yes, I know alot of the food gets eaten where it's made) it's worth the discomfort/inhumanity of the animals... Perhaps not, but I don't see that we can sit here complaining about how badly animals are treated to feed us when if they changed back to purely organic food - food aid would surely plummet. (Admittedly this pure specualtion, I haven't done any research...)

Very contraversial I know, but heck - it's an opinion

Due to energy loss the higher up the food chain you go, using animals for food is actually very wasteful.

i.e. given enough plant food to feed a population of 10,000, if you use that plant food to feed, raise and slaughter animals, you will only end up with enough food to feed 1,000.

The Western world with it's emphasis on raising animals for food is doing more to aid world starvation than it can make up for by sending occasional supplies to them.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Rosalinemember
10 posts
Location: Sheffield


Posted:
I basically agree with dave on this one, even though I'm not currently a veggie I accpet that all his points are sound. I'm afraid I don't agree that mass-farming helps the third world, it's the opposite really, grain farmed in such countries as Ethiopia which could help support their people is infact exported to feed cattle for the Western World. So meat farming does much more harm than good

DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
I did say I hadn't done any research...

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


DentrassiGOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
just curiousity.... the stastistic that 'food production from plants is 10 times more efficient that from animals', seems to be popping up frequently. where does this figure come from??? ive found that many stats from the net are a bit dodgy... can anyone give me a decent reference???

cheers

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Dentrassi:
just curiousity.... the stastistic that 'food production from plants is 10 times more efficient that from animals', seems to be popping up frequently. where does this figure come from??? ive found that many stats from the net are a bit dodgy... can anyone give me a decent reference???

cheers

Can't give you specifics, it's a figure used in a lot of literature concerning vegitarianism.

Obviously it's an approximation, but common sense tells us that there's going to be a considerable loss.

i.e. starting with x amount of food value in plant form- animal uses it to sustain its life- walking around maintaining its body heat and all the other energy consuming processes that constitute being alive.

Obviously at the end when it is slaughtered it's body will contain less food value than the original plant material.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
So being a Jewish boy from the Midwestern United States, corned beef was a big deal to me. Now, you can't get a decent corned beef sandwich in California, what with the bread done properly and all, so when I came back to Michigan, one of my first actions was to go to Zingerman's delicatessin here in Ann Arbor and get a MASSIVE corned beef sandwich.

The next day was the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection and...guess what? Cadaver muscle looks and feels EXACTLY like corned beef.

Well, what with the physical labor that dissection involves, you work up quite an apetite in lab and guess what I found myself craving?

I became a vegetarian that day.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
Haha, I never even thought about the 10 to 1 conversion ratio thing. A very helpful and rationalistic way of looking at it. Also with the meat production hurting other people and such... cattle farming is among the most destructive things we do. Methane destroys the atmosphere, the antibiotics and other hormones we pump them full of so that the *UNNATURALLY* close proximity they have doesn't pass along diseases and such create super diseases that will one day destroy us all, not to mention that fact that cattle farming is the largest single destroyer of natural fresh water supplies... And that our meat consumption is sucking the grains from other countries... well I don't know about that one, I thought all that came from the "bread basket" of america. I DO know that of the grain we eat in this country, cattle eat something like 10x the amount we do every year. Of course "feeding the world" is a great idea, but considering that we produce something along the lines of 150% of the amount of food it takes to feed the world, I'd say the economics of SHIPPING food to other people is the main propogator of starvation.

There's all kinds of neat little tid bits of information about all that (Pele, loved the post ). Absolutly loved the energy conservation thoery of vegetarianism, I'll be quoting that and I didn't even think about the silks and cottons I wear... eye opener. Though I'd like to just say that I DO own several natural hemp clothes, but for some reason they are expensive so I couldn't make my whole wardrobe that way... hehe.

Ugh and where did we get off talking about morals? Disgusting things those...

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