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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:reading this-



http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...5/o/all/fpart/1



and this-



http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...5/o/all/fpart/2



i felt the need to make comment, but, the reply button would not work on either, so I guess they've been locked?



From the perspective of a (long-standing) member of the HOP community, i felt it was important to put forward two points-



1. why some may feel the need to talk about the banning of another long-standing member of the community, not necessarily to criticise those who made that decision, but, simply because that is what community members do when someone is exiled- they feel the need to talk about it



2. address the posted comment by a mod that, from the perspectice of a mod, any discussion of said members banning, is necessarily disrespectful to the mods



To elaborate on point 2, IMO, the discussion on the threads that have been removed or locked, did not come across as disrespectful to the mods.



To question a decision is not necessarily disrespectful.



It's true that the banning of NYC has gone largely unnoticed, till now. But, now, it has very much been noticed and, to expect this community to not talk about it, is, IMO, unrealistic.



There may be very good background reasons why it's seen as best for no discussion to take place, but, obviously, from the perspective of the community, those reasons are not known.



I know it's a difficult thing to make judgements on.



The main thing I want to say is that I find it very unpleasent when multiple threads are locked or removed, when, in my eyes, they contained nothing offensive.



I would also like the mods to examine the possibility that the pulled/stoped discussions are actually not disrespectful to HOP or the mods, but are simply members of the community discussing something which is important to them.



I'm assuming that this thread is not also going to be seen as disrespectful- it's certainly not intended as such.



If threads discussing this chain of events are going to be systematically pulled or locked, then, like many here, I'm going to be wondering whether I'm part of this community any more.



A community talks- that's the point of it.



If that talk is abusive, damaging, hurtful, then it has to be pulled- no questions about it.



But I'm concerned that what is developing here is the pulling of stuff that is not at all abusive, damaging or hurtful.



Banning someone for good reasons is one thing, but expecting the community to 'never again utter their name' is dodgy as hell smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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PyroWill
PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines
Member Since: 4th Aug 2004
Total posts: 4437
Posted: Written by :Durbs



But, as all these posts would suggest, something ain't right. There's a general tide of unhappiness about this whole business.
Pele's been a mod for ages, and her "unpopularity" has maybe mirrored this, but this is a community - and if it's meant to be a fair community, wouldn't it be fair to have moderators accepted/respected by the masses?




I think you hit the nail right on the head there Paul


An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:A couple of points I'd like to contribute:

1) thank you for letting us the freedom of expression in this thread

2) no one is 'disrespecting the mods', of course not, only discussing what's happened.

3) calling meg a 'stirrer' is not fair. Meg's had the guts to say how a lot of us have felt and for that I'm glad.

4) Losing a well-loved member of the forum, we need to grieve their loss, and in that we need to discuss it and come to terms with it.

hug


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by :FireTom


btw Newgabe: so far it seems as if your call remains unheard shrug



My call has been heard. Thanks Flashfire.

BTW It is not FT's post I am referring to above, but another nasty one that thankfully has been removed. So although my thread now reads a bit oddly (an identifying quote in it was edited by a mod) I do think there are fair ears about.


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Gnor
Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth
Member Since: 31st Mar 2003
Total posts: 5814
Posted:How active does a MOD have to be to be considered active. The few issues that have happened on HOP seem to be dealt with superquick so someone is doing their job. So quick I only get to see the aftermath.shrug
It would be nice to see a " face of HOP" person posting more. I miss George and his friendly posts. hug


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by biggrinoc Lightning



I will remind everyone that it is not uncommon for apparently upstanding, trustworthy members of a community to have a dark underside. I am not sure if that is the case with NYC, but he did something to make all the mods vote him off the board. Banning of contributing members of our community has only happened a handful of times since I joined this board 7 years ago.



But whatever did happen is not any of our business. It is NYC's and the mods' business and their business only.







I think a lot of the curiosity stems from those who have "known" NYC over the years online not being able to think of what kind of FAQ-busting behaviour someone like him could've possibly demonstrated to provoke his ban.



What are the rules?



We don't need to know all the gory details, but regardless of whether NYC's behaviour was against the rules, every HoP member needs to know whether, in light in of this, the rules are still accurate.



I know that a minority of moderation decisions need to be made on the fly, but while there isn't a visible HoP policy to forbid members to discuss bannings or members who have been banned here, it's unfair to lock or delete threads which do. If a thread moves on to specifically breaking the rules, that's fair enough, but it would be more useful to only lock a thread as an example and even then only if absolutely necessary.



As I posted before, I think deleting a thread such as Meg's, which didn't even seem to break any of the rules, is insulting to members. I'm also happy to be able to say that the way this and the other threads have gone so far indicates that the rules need not change.



 Written by :mcp



Does anybody else think that Pele shouldn't be a mod?







 Written by :onewheeldave



I'm not saying people shouldn't discuss those issues, but, I think it would be better to at least do them on their own specific threads, cos, the more they crop up on this one, the more likely it is to get locked.







As if there's ever going to be a specific thread about that, or one which survives for very long anyway.



It's for that reason that I'll say here that yes, I do think Pele shouldn't be a mod.



I have to stick my neck out here because



a) several people have informed me that they share my view, who shall remain anonymous unless they choose to reveal themselves, but who won't post because



b) they and I are "in fear" of causing the thread to be locked or deleted or being banned themselves, just for giving an honest answer to question, neither which break the rules, and that is wrong.



There's a lot already raised in this thread that I'd like to quote to illustrate my point, but I have the feeling that I'd not only be wasting my time by doing so but will be accused of a personal vendetta and all kinds simply for disagreeing further. Therein lies the problem.



If HoP is genuinely interested in why people feel this way, they can demonstrate that by initiating that discussion themselves.



Other than that, what Durbs said, and Jo summed up things pretty well also.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I just wanted to say I understand where the mods are coming from. I just admin a little Christian group and it gets pretty interesting in there.
I'm sure the banning was not an easy decision
How active they are has nothing to do with their ability to moderate/admin.
I like pele as a mod and as a poster and recognize the difference.

And obviously firetom did not get NYC ousted because if he had the power I wouldn't be here smile bounce


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by :PyroWill

It seems that the closure of the thread was the higher ups saying 'we dont want you talking about this anymore' and we are expected to just agree with the decision.





I'd like to add a thought about locking threads. (It's about locking threads only. Not about the ban or mods or personal enmities.)



You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, ...



I do feel that, in the context of the locked original thread, this does apply on more than one account. I never saw the deleted ones so can't comment, though I generally agree that it would be nice to have a placeholder or something.



After clarification of there being several reasons for the ban, Fire Tom was still accused of being the instigator, and it was suggested that he should have been banned instead being the "less useful" one. Locking a thread that's turning into slagging someone off and finding a scapegoat where it's been made clear that more than just the two people were involved is not the same as stopping a constructive discussion.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Just blame E_war_ (LTC) - it's usually his fault anyway.

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:*reports above post to mods*

wink


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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georgemc
georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 16th Oct 2006
Total posts: 2387
Posted: Written by :Spanner


I think a lot of the curiosity stems from those who have "known" NYC over the years online not being able to think of what kind of FAQ-busting behaviour someone like him could've possibly demonstrated to provoke his ban.

What are the rules?

We don't need to know all the gory details, but regardless of whether NYC's behaviour was against the rules, every HoP member needs to know whether, in light in of this, the rules are still accurate.


Ok, in light of the amount of curiosity about this, I'll go furhter than we have so far and say the following about NYC's banning:
a) The rules are still accurate
b) of the following subset of the rules, NYC was spoken to on multiple occasions by multiple mods for posts/PMs/e-mails that violated about half of the list. Behaviour continued unchanged.
 Written by :Rules subset

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.



More specific details I'm not happy to provide and even this I feel is stretching the limits of what we should say, so I hope it's enough to satisfy everyone's curiosity.


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted: Written by :Birgit


After clarification of there being several reasons for the ban, Fire Tom was still accused of being the instigator, and it was suggested that he should have been banned instead being the "less useful" one. Locking a thread that's turning into slagging someone off and finding a scapegoat where it's been made clear that more than just the two people were involved is not the same as stopping a constructive discussion.



Completely agree, Birgit.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by :Durbs


As people keep saying, Pele isn't the only mod, but she really seems to be the mod people have the most issues with. I can't think of any others who've been so "controversial" in their operations. Pele herself has said that most of the modding goes on behind the scenes, so why is she have the only mod that people regularly have issue with?



Because she's the one who sticks her neck out.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I just wanted to point out that over in "Chat" we're all having a great time laughing with each-other.

We'll make it through this crisis. We always have. So those of you who are thinking about leaving, please don't. Please don't.

We'll make it. It's not the first of these things I've seen and it's not the last there will be. We all like each-other, so let's keep that in mind.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Faith: I shalt send you more Puppies? wink



Second I'm kind of irritated about the course all this has been taking confused



I fully side Mike: Pele's the one who sticks her neck out, takes a firm position and stands for her (unpopular) decisions (taken by more than just one mod). She's the one who moderates and participates as a frequent poster on this board - that might create animosities and be the real reason for opposing her.



And further I side him when stating: don't leave for that stirring please - you'r participation is valued and important hug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1208923358)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted: Written by :PK_


And as for new mods appointed?

I remember the whole cantus / Mod thing some years ago! how hilarious was that? ...

And what, may I ask, is a God Complex between friends? wink hug


*sits in the corner, dreamily musing on erstwhile smotings and lightning bolts flung...* Ah halcyon days rolleyes


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted: Written by :Cantus


And what, may I ask, is a God Complex between friends? wink hug



ubbangel nothing at all!... lol

hug


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I don't have a god complex.

I am god. Not complex at all.

*preens*

*trips and falls flat on face in a tub of Nutella* Mmmmm!


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:Quote Firetom:
> However all this being the reason that I would like to renew my stance to the mods that
> -- I WOULD LOVE TO SEE NYC BACK ON THIS BOARD!
> and would hereby "officially" ask the mods, George and Malcolm to review the decision taken.

Asking for the stable door to be re-opened after the horse has bolted?
NYC is NOT coming back. For fairly obvious reasons, he has no interest in coming back.
____________________________________

Having researched carefully (in Jan), and spoken with and e-mailed several of the parties involved.
In my opinion, in 9 1/2 years this is the worst event that has happened to the community in the history of the HOP forums. The damage done to the HOP community and is a sad thing to see, and will take a long time to regrow that which is lost.
____________________________________

In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further.
____________________________________

George: Thanks for your explanation - sorry for not writing a full reply. Yep, I think we both knew these threads were coming - I'm surprised it took 4 months.
With what comes next..... Good luck.
____________________________________

Nope I don't have an answer either.
grouphug


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PyroWill
PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines
Member Since: 4th Aug 2004
Total posts: 4437
Posted:This really seems to have turned into a topic of discussion about whether the mod's should be more present in the forum or not. I think this is totally missing the point. For me (and I may be alone here) it is mostly about as Drew said



"In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further."



In terms of my opinion of the mod's it has only made me doubt certain decision making abilities, rather than the need more more/less of their presence.


An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:"In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further."

*non-mod observation*

ummmm....this thread has been open for days. As far as I know, it hasn't even been concidered for locking or moving.

I just think it is now a bit odd to be 4 pages and a few days into a discussion and still using this as a complaint.

Just sayin' shrug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Yeah, they didn't shut this one. I think they figured out after the first three attempts that it wasn't going to work.

See, acknowledging that what you're doing isn't working demonstrates maturity. And that's what I'm glad to see from the mods.

Maybe it's not fair to hold a mistake against them when they corrected the mistake once they realized it?

I'm sure there are a few people wondering if I'm pele's lapdog. But I'm not. I'm one of the oldest members of this board and I've been here longer than some of the mods. I know them very well. There are group of very mature and wise men and women with a good sense of people. Some of them are very reserved and only speak when absolutely necessary. Some of them are more vocal and involved. Their job, as mods, is to moderate the board and to keep it within the forum guidelines. They also help to make this community the amazing thing that it is.

Think of what this board is. I have good friends just about anywhere that English is spoken and in a few places where Spanish is spoken thanks to this board.

And like any such community, we're going to hit our bumps. It isn't due to any insufficiency on the part of the mods. It's just because we're a human community and stuff like this happens. And every time, the mods take a beating. I just find it so unfair. They have such a thankless job. And sometimes, as part of their job, they have to hurt people. And I know each and every one of them and I know how much that sucks.

So stick with it and we'll get through this together.

And please, for heaven's sake, stop taking it out on the mods. They didn't commit any crime. They were just trying to maintain the peace.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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PyroWill
PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines
Member Since: 4th Aug 2004
Total posts: 4437
Posted: Written by :Pele



I just think it is now a bit odd to be 4 pages and a few days into a discussion and still using this as a complaint.



Just sayin' shrug





I feel what was said is still relevant simply because I believe the main issue hasn't been picked up on by mod's and that they believe the 'issue' is that their presence is not felt online, hence George's new Mod thread asking what we expect from mod's in terms of their online presence.



This seems to not be the issue I think. In fact most people have been saying they are happy with the mod's presence, and that the issue is about the 'trigger happy' locking/deleting of threads. So until the mod's review the decision process on locking threads I think this issue will continue.



P.S. No disrespect to the mods


An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:PW, no one is ever happy when things are locked or deleted, or even moved sometimes.

What has been said several times is that it isn't a "trigger happy" thing. The fact that there haven't been locked threads in *months* is testament to this. If it were about being "trigger happy" or attempting to hide/avoid confrontation, I can think of *several* threads that would have been locked under those circumstances, like any dealing with fire breathing, for example rolleyes wink

The fact that this thread has a different tone to the others and has remained open is a testament to that.

The mods and admins understand that concern. "Place holders" or public statements will now be used when threads are deemed in need of such actions. However, those found in violation of the rules, either in tone or content, will be prone to action.

The activity/visibility of the mods was brought into question, and as such it is also being dealt with, as you know.

The current legitimacy of the rules was brought into question, and they were reviewed.

We *do* listen, to everyone.
We *do* pay attention, to everyone.
We *do* understand, and if adjustments are deemed necessary, they are made. They have been several times over the years. Hey, I can remember when HoP didn't even have rules and what a controversy implementing them was. (yes, I know, my cane and rocking chair are showing)

No disrespect taken. I/we understand that you want to make sure we get your point. We do, seriously, we do.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :Pele




The fact that this thread has a different tone to the others and has remained open is a testament to that.




I've got to say that I see no real difference between the tone of this thread and the tone of Bluecats-

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...5/o/all/fpart/1

Admittedly, when I started this thread, diplomacy was very much in my mind, as, given what had happened with Bluecats, I half-expected it to get locked as well: but, looking at the two threads I still don't see why Bluecats was problematic and, i can't help thinking that, if I was Bluecat, I'd be feeling a bit put-out and wondering why I been locked.

That aside, to say something positive, i do appreciate what you say about the feelings of the community being taken into account and the changes that have been/are being made.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


 Written by :Pele




The fact that this thread has a different tone to the others and has remained open is a testament to that.




I've got to say that I see no real difference between the tone of this thread and the tone of Bluecats-



confused i do.

We all know why it was moved along with mcp's thread by the mods, I don't think that it warranted yet another thread to call out the Mods to see why they did it.
To me it reads that there was enticement there for an answer to mcps questions/ideals from the mods and admins in the most public way; not that it was anyone's concern other than the parties involved in said incident.

Dave, your thread has given topical debate, leading to the creation of other threads from the admins that maybe will do hop some good. I think that this alone should tell you the difference in tone.

hug


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


Admittedly, when I started this thread, diplomacy was very much in my mind, as, given what had happened with Bluecats, I half-expected it to get locked as well:



Doesn't it worry people that respected old-school members of the community are worried about getting their threads locked? (Even when written diplomatically) The new members of the community probably aren't going to dare start a thread on anything even close to a controversial issue even when they have legitimate concerns.

Is this form of self censorship what you want hop to be?

Family friendly is a very politically charged idea anyway, but now we can't even discuss how hop works. We just have to hope that the secret police don't disappear you and your threads.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:PK it is not clear to all of us, can you quote the line or lines from robs thread which caused it to be shut down cos i am having trouble seeing it how the thread breaks the hop rules.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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blu_valley
blu_valley

fluffy mess
Location: Brighton
Member Since: 8th Apr 2005
Total posts: 197
Posted:From what I can see, speaking as a bubblegum poster who generally sticks to fluffy threads, who only sometimes gets involved with discussions, but still follows them religiously...

I had no idea any of this was going on, but managed to follow the whole thing quite nicely once it got picked up on the general HOP radar by reading the various threads relating to it (locked and not).I completely understand why the mods might feel it necissary to remove or lock threads (I'm not saying they were right or wrong, just that I understand that threads like these might cause alarm bells to ring as now, many many people who were unaware now know someone got banned and some of the people involved, which may or may not be a bit embarrassing/touchy/sensitive/otheremotionalwordofyourchoice for those involved- I don't know, but it's possible).

What I'm really glad to see though, is that once HOPpers made it known that they were not happy about being made to feel that they were not allowed to talk about things that upset them (even though this was not the intention of the mods), the mods listened and have, since then allowed discussions to continue. It's just nice to know that they can make decisions, as a group,maybe even mistakes (not that this was or wasn't a mistake), but eventually are willing to pay attention to the feelings of the community. In all UNfairness, they could have gone on locking threads forever, but they didn't, and have actively been trying to sort the situation out.

Had none of this happened, and the mods had left all the threads open, it is possible that their fears may have been realised and the threads possibly turned very nasty.
Because of the way things transpired, most who have posted have been extra cautious with what they have said (which is necissary when dealing with a sensitive subject), and everyone has been able to discuss their feelings in a civilised manner.

Just something I noticed.

smile


"I want to know if you can see beauty even when it's not pretty, every day,and if you can source your own life from its presence.." - Oriah Mountain Dreamer

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :PK_




We all know why it was moved along with mcp's thread by the mods, I don't think that it warranted yet another thread to call out the Mods to see why they did it.
To me it reads that there was enticement there for an answer to mcps questions/ideals from the mods and admins in the most public way; not that it was anyone's concern other than the parties involved in said incident.

Dave, your thread has given topical debate, leading to the creation of other threads from the admins that maybe will do hop some good. I think that this alone should tell you the difference in tone.

hug



Perhaps an unfair comparison, given that this thread wasn't locked and the other one was smile


As a bit of feedback to those who are involved in what is increasingly looking to be an issue fueled by long-standing personality differences and board politics, I feel it's worht pointing out that, for many of us, it's not at all true that 'we all know why it was moved...'

Not having seem MCPs posts, I genuinely have no idea why it was moved- having seen some of MCPs previous posts, I can imagine that, in terms of tone, it could have been overly colourful: but, not having seen it, I'm not going to make that presumption.

I'm in no way saying it shouldn't have been removed- that's a decision mods have to make- I'm simply pointing out that, if anyones under the impression that 'we all know...' then, the fact is, we don't.

I did read bluecats post though, and stand by what i said above- it's still available for public viewing and, if anyone can show me what it is in that thread that led to a locking, i would be very interested in knowing what it was.

And, if anyone in the know feels that the only way to answer that question is to bring in a history of (perhaps personal/confidential) peronality-conflict based politics- then that is an indication that, from the perspective of those not involved in that hidden world, the decision to lock Bluecats thread, could be seen as a bit dubious where impartiality is concerned.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:One thing that's become very apparent PK, is that Bluecats thread was seen as some kind of put-down of the mods.

I think, in the context of the post as it was written, that can't be seen: maybe, in the context of stuff that's been said before between the involved parties, maybe it can be seen as a dig?

I don't know, I'm not involved in that way.

What it did remind me of though, was a conversation many years ago with our mutual friend Jo.

At that time, he was very involved with a major conflict on another internet board, which, to a smaller extent, had slipped across to this one.

This was obviously causing him a great deal of stress and having a bad effect on him.

He showed me some of the posts in question, which, he said, contained personal insults to him.

I saw nothing- I genuinely could not see those insults. So, he sat me down and led me into his world, pulling up past threads, showing how a seemingly innocent comment contained hidden meanings known only to the few people involved.

He then pointed out that i was very naive, that, on this very board, there were similar posts having a go at me, but I was just too unaware to see it.

I had no doubt that all this was very real to him and, I'm aware that, when it comes to subtle social interaction, I am, by nature, somewhat lacking in many ways.

But, seeing the effect this was having on him, I had no inclination whatsoever to increase my abilities to perceive this kind of stuff and told him, in the most diplomatic way I could, that he should, IMO, let it all go.

Because, if living in a world-view where actute awareness of status, put-downs and conflict are prime, leads to what i was seeing in him, then, personally, I'll happily focus on cultivating ignorance and naivity.

That's an extreme case of course, but, what I'm seeing recently with this talk of mods being insulted, is reminding me of it.

An insult to a mod, is an insult to a mod and, as such, needs to be dealt with (possibly removed)- but, a preceived insult to a mod, is not necessarily an insult and, when it comes to it being based on several years of interactions/conflicts/dissapointments between strong personalities, it can be almost impossible to distinguish between what is perceived and what is actual.

In those cases, I'd suggest not moderating a post unless it contains a problem which is apparent to anyone reading it, rather than just a select few who are involved in the hidden, background issue.

That way, I think everyone knows where they stand.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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