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Posted:Hello everyone! I looked for videos\tutorial regarding WW but I found only two videos by someone (sorry, forgot your name :P) and i can't see them, dont know why though.

Is there any tutorial somewhere, maybe something new that has been posted recently? Thank you very much!


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TheBovrilMonkey
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Posted:Have a look at this helpful thread



Also, have a look at this helpful book - Anna Jillings' Modern Club Swinging and Pole Swinging. Although the whole thing is well worth a read, you'd be after chapter 17 - waist circles and waist wraps.



Edit, there's also this video in the free lessons section of this site. It only shows a behind the back half waistwrap though.

EDITED_BY: TheBovrilMonkey (1188063600)


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PinkNigel


PinkNigel

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Posted:I personally disagree with the Anna Jillings book (and with as much as I read of the other HoP thread) - there are 4 circles in a waist wrap, not 3 (-and-a-carry), if you learn a 3 circle version then the 4th circle is a sloppy mess and makes the whole pattern look bad.

So - if I say 2-beat weave, do you know what I mean? (I'm a club swinger, I don't really understand this poi-talk... wink ) OK, so take that 2-beat weave and do it on one side of your body in what I believe is "Wall plane" (goes through both your shoulders? That plane anyway) with one of the circles behind your back and the other in front. Make sure the clubs/poi/gerbils on strings/whatever stay under your arms throughout (so if you're doing it on your left side then the whole thing is happening between your left arm and your body).When you're happy and comfortable with that, use one of the front circles as the time you've got to swap the "weave" over to the other side of you (again with it all under your arms). Keep going there a while then use a front circle to go back to the side you started on. Now shorten the time that you stay on each side of your body, and keep shortening it until you're only doing one circle behind on each side, and all the front circles aare transitions from one side to the other. You're now doing the front half of waist wrap.

The back half is much the same, but you have to take an arm behind your back and use the back circles as the transitions.

To join them together there's a certain amount of fudging transition circles which isn't easy to describe, play around and see what you can do..


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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TheBovrilMonkey
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Posted: Written by: PinkNigel


So - if I say 2-beat weave, do you know what I mean? (I'm a club swinger, I don't really understand this poi-talk... wink ) OK, so take that 2-beat weave and do it on one side of your body in what I believe is "Wall plane" (goes through both your shoulders? That plane anyway) with one of the circles behind your back and the other in front. Make sure the clubs/poi/gerbils on strings/whatever stay under your arms throughout (so if you're doing it on your left side then the whole thing is happening between your left arm and your body).When you're happy and comfortable with that, use one of the front circles as the time you've got to swap the "weave" over to the other side of you (again with it all under your arms). Keep going there a while then use a front circle to go back to the side you started on. Now shorten the time that you stay on each side of your body, and keep shortening it until you're only doing one circle behind on each side, and all the front circles are transitions from one side to the other. You're now doing the front half of waist wrap.




Emphasis mine.
How d'you stop your arms getting tangled when you're doing the 4th circle?
Surely if you do a whole circle in front of you to move back to the side you started on, you're either doing some weird twisty arm movements or adding enough beats to turn it into a fountain?
I'm very confused now confused


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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PinkNigel


PinkNigel

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Posted:You move from front to back/back to front when your gerbils are pointing at the ground, yes?.. So the second and the fourth "circles" are mirrors of each other ("circles" not circles as the centre has become a straight line the width of your hips), and you don't get tangled on the 4th in the same way you don't get tangled on the 2nd. The only unpleasant twisty arm bit comes with the following hand on the third circle as it has to push up in an odd direction.

A maybe key bit I missed out in my last post is that your palms face behind you throughout the move (both front and back parts)


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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TheBovrilMonkey
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Posted:I'm crap at understanding written descriptions of moves but that sounds much more like a fountain than a waistwrap.

The difference as I understand it is that a fountain is essentially just doing weave turns back and forward with a bit of body positioning to emphasise the difference, but that a waistwrap has the carry - otherwise it's a fountain.

When you're doing a full waistwrap, how does the 4th circle fit in to moving the clubs behind you for the behind the back part?

I think I'm going to have to unpack my clubs and have a play smile


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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PinkNigel


PinkNigel

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Posted:Now to me a fountain is forward cross and follow (3-beat weave, I believe you youngsters call it... wink ), -> reverse cross and follow -> windmill -> forward cross and follow etc (windmill being a circle in front of your face, then one behind your head, in front, behind etc etc) without any hanging around in any of the individual moves.
So the only similarity there is the windmill part, being one circle in front then one behind, where the rest is all 3-beat stuff. Waist wrap is all 2-beat, like a vertical helicopter move (or spiral, or something, y'know, one horizontal circle below your arms then one above your arms...)

With the full waist wrap the lead hand does its 4th circle as the 1st circle of the next part, while the following hand does its transition on the third circles. So where keeping on one side (front or back) has 4 circles, the full waist wrap has 6 (hey, it's doing my head in trying to turn this into a written description, I won't blame you if you can't follow what I mean here...)

It occurred to me earlier that this could all get even more confusing, since what I mean by the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th circles could just as well be the 3rd, 4th, 1st and 2nd circles. However, the natural way round to do it is to count circle one as on the same side of your body as the lead hand. This means that circle 2 feels a lot more like a full circle than 4 does cos you're really doing a wee bit of antispin in circle 4 if you think in terms of the line between your hips being a segment of a large circle... I'm going to go play with 3,4,1,2 instead of 1,2,3,4, so next time I do a waist wrap workshop there'll be a whole new bit to talk about (would've been much easier for you to get this if you'd come to my workshop at play... wink )


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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TheBovrilMonkey
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Posted:Ah, I think this may be something we'll have to agree to disagree on.
I use the Jillings book as a reference for pretty much everything and you're using a different definition of the fountain (the Jillings one doesn't have the extra windmill parts at the top)

Still, windmill circle at the top or not, at least it seems we agree on the rest wink

I was planning to go to your workshop, but true to form I lost track of time ooooops


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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PinkNigel


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Posted: Written by: TheBovrilMonkey


I use the Jillings book as a reference for pretty much everything and you're using a different definition of the fountain (the Jillings one doesn't have the extra windmill parts at the top)



Er.. yea it does.. it's just that the circles behind you happen over the shoulders instead of behind your head... (fig. 18.4 in her book..) Soz, I didn't describe that bit very well.

So if you use the Jillings book then I can do the other way of describing/teaching a waist wrap.. Do a low reel (chapter 7 p31) with the gerbils swinging parallel, out of time. When you're comfy, use a front circle to carry a gerbil across to the other side of your body so the next back circle with that gerbil happens on the wrong side of your body for that arm (and under the other arm). Use the next front circle to carry the gerbil back to where it's supposed to be. Get comfy again, then do the same thing with the other gerbil. Gradually reduce your "getting comfy time" until it's not there at all. You are now doing the front part of waist wrap.
Repeat using back circles as transitions to get the back part.
Pay attention to fig. 7.6 when doing the front bit (otherwise you end up doing half waist wrap, half "low fountain" (as Anna calls it)).


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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TheBovrilMonkey
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Posted: Written by: PinkNigel


Er.. yea it does.. it's just that the circles behind you happen over the shoulders instead of behind your head... (fig. 18.4 in her book..) Soz, I didn't describe that bit very well.



Which turns them into shoulder circles instead of windmill-like behind your head ones.

To me, a fountain is a 3 beat move which is just forwards weave -> weave turn with your arms low -> backwards weave -> weave turn with your arms high, with every turn made as soon as possible, so there are no extra beats anywhere.

The half waistwrap would be a 2 beat move that breaks down into forward alternating time low reel -> alternating time turn -> backwards alternating time low reel -> carry back to the start, again done with no extra beats anywhere.

Again - I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, especially since we seem to have such an exclusive difference in opinion.

*shrug* 'tis just club moves anyway, they're fundamentally the same.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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UCOF
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Posted: Written by: thebovrilmonkey

different definition of the fountain



biggrin
classic...


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PinkNigel


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Posted: Written by: TheBovrilMonkey



 Written by: PinkNigel



Er.. yea it does.. it's just that the circles behind you happen over the shoulders instead of behind your head... (fig. 18.4 in her book..) Soz, I didn't describe that bit very well.





Which turns them into shoulder circles instead of windmill-like behind your head ones.



Fair enough, I always thought of that bit as windmill cos I learned the move as "do a bit of cross and follow, do a bit of reverse cross and follow, do a bit of windmill"



 Written by: TheBovrilMonkey



To me, a fountain is a 3 beat move which is just forwards weave -> weave turn with your arms low -> backwards weave -> weave turn with your arms high, with every turn made as soon as possible, so there are no extra beats anywhere.



But doesn't "weave turn with your arms high" not necessarily include the circle behind your head? Is that not, in fact, an "extra beat" - or actually two extra beats? Compared to the arms low one it is...



 Written by: TheBovrilMonkey



The half waistwrap would be a 2 beat move that breaks down into forward alternating time low reel -> alternating time turn -> backwards alternating time low reel -> carry back to the start, again done with no extra beats anywhere.







Ah, but low reel has hands on the same side of the body as the shoulder they belong to.. And other than that I don't follow what you mean by "forward [...] low reel" and "backward [...] low reel", those terms don't compute with what I know as waist wrap..



So where did Sp1ke333 go? Does he mind that we hijacked the thread to have our own little chat about tthis?


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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TheBovrilMonkey
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Posted: Written by: PinkNigel


But doesn't "weave turn with your arms high" not necessarily include the circle behind your head?



Yep, it doesn't include the circle behind your head because a fountain doesn't have one - it has a pair of shoulder circles and a circle in front of your head.

 Written by:


Ah, but low reel has hands on the same side of the body as the shoulder they belong to.. And other than that I don't follow what you mean by "forward [...] low reel" and "backward [...] low reel", those terms don't compute with what I know as waist wrap..



Yeah, low reel was the wrong term to use really, but it's the best I could think of, I suppose a better description would be a 2 beat cross follow.
The forwards and backwards was fairly arbitrary too, the same way that forwards and backwards weave is arbitrary if you're spinning a move in wall plane.

Not intending to drag this off topic any further, but are you planning to go to Bristol? It'd be good to chat about this in person smile


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Hi PinkNigel, Im loving this club swinging talk. Though, Ill have to fully read some of your descriptions.

 Written by:

I personally disagree with the Anna Jillings book (and with as much as I read of the other HoP thread) - there are 4 circles in a waist wrap, not 3 (-and-a-carry), if you learn a 3 circle version then the 4th circle is a sloppy mess and makes the whole pattern look bad.



Anna Jillings describes the waist wrap really well. I think the confusion starts when we mistake what Anna Jillings calls a waist wrap with the fountain. The fountain being whats described as two beat waist wrap all joined together. When you dont do the carry you add an extra circle and start to do the upper fountain. What you seem to be describing is the twister or tying the knot; tangle and double tangle aka bloody hard wink See Schatz's Club Swinging Book.

There is a fountain at media circus dvds and videos. Reach up to add the top bit to the upper fountain.

Hi Bovril, I agree, I'm going to have get out my clubs and have a play. Spring is in the air.

Cheers beerchug


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Posted:thank you guys for the advices...however it's still complex to figure it out for me. Hope to get an illumination or something during my trainings or that someone will post a video tutorial somewhere smile

thanks again


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PinkNigel


PinkNigel

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Posted: Written by: TheBovrilMonkey


Not intending to drag this off topic any further, but are you planning to go to Bristol? It'd be good to chat about this in person smile



I shall definitely be at Bristol for the first weekend, but I have to register at uni on the Monday, after which it depends upon my timetable for the first week as to whether I get back down.

You could always come to Manchester Juggling Convention on October 6th if we're not at Bristol at the same time...


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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thombre
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Posted:Can the waist wrap be achieved by going from btb forwards and reverse weaves, but in the wall plane? I have tried this and it seems to feel like what I imagine a waist wrap would feel like. (is this making sense?)

Buy gerbils cos you can't spin with hamsters

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_khan_
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Posted: Written by: Dashers


Can the waist wrap be achieved by going from btb forwards and reverse weaves, but in the wall plane? I have tried this and it seems to feel like what I imagine a waist wrap would feel like. (is this making sense?)



Yes, it's a matter of turning your body approx. 90 degrees toward the poi but keeping the poi on the same plane. i.e., the plane change is achieved by re-orienting your body, not the poi.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
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PinkNigel


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Posted: Written by: Dashers


Can the waist wrap be achieved by going from btb forwards and reverse weaves, but in the wall plane? I have tried this and it seems to feel like what I imagine a waist wrap would feel like. (is this making sense?)


If you mean 3-beat weave, no. Kinda close, but no...


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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simian


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Posted: Written by: Dashers


Can the waist wrap be achieved by going from btb forwards and reverse weaves, but in the wall plane? I have tried this and it seems to feel like what I imagine a waist wrap would feel like. (is this making sense?)



Hello Dashers wave

in answer to your question: both Nigel and Khan are correct. The answer is YES and NO. Welcome to the most wonderful and awesome world of spinning terminology smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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thombre
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Posted:Christ, alright, I guess I should have known! Well, the only answer is to make whatever it is work as well as I can, and then when I meet someone more knowledgeable than me they can tell me Ive been doing it wrong and how to make it better. Sorted. smile

Buy gerbils cos you can't spin with hamsters

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Stone
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Posted:The waist wrap is a two beat move not a three beat weave. Lead with the right going to the right.

I look it up, and get back with a description.

PinkNigel, did you figure out the tangle?


wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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PinkNigel


PinkNigel

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Posted: Written by: Stone


The waist wrap is a two beat move not a three beat weave. Lead with the right going to the right.



Hahaha.. Now you're doing what I'd describe as 3,4,1,2.. If I'm doing 1,2,3,4 it's either lead with the left when going from left-right on your first front circle or lead with the right going right-left with the first front circle.

Is it any wonder we can all talk about the exact same thing yet disagree about it?

 Written by: Stone



PinkNigel, did you figure out the tangle?


wink



Haven't had a chance to look at it yet, I'll dig out Schatz as soon as I get the chance..

(Problem I have with that book is that I always feel like I've had to read all of it up to the bit I'm interested in for the bit I want to make sense...)


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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Stone
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Posted:Hi sp1ke333, was the video still up at media circus?

PinkNigel, I think were are on the same page. These are two beat moves or follow circles; one hand is always following the other. For a waist wrap, to the right, I do the first circle behind.

Like, from parallel long arm circles to the right, take the right club behind the right hip, the left follows. With the right leading come in front, cross and uncross in front of belly button, the right leads into a circle behind the left hip, do the pass back (clubs parallel) and start another one.

I think the problem with the Schatz book is that we have to keep going back to basics, and for sure its takes a while to get back to those arm over back of waist arm over front stuff wink

Bov, got any new moves?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Posted: Written by: Stone


Hi sp1ke333, was the video still up at media circus?




Hi! Sorry but i havent understood...which video are you talking about?


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Durbs
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Posted:Woot - time to upset several people and wade in with my own definitions and arguements biggrin



Right, Waist Wrap to me, that is in poi terms, is wall plane with one hand BTB - that's it.



I don't like the original "Waist Wrap" move that people first used, which was just split time spinning at your side in wall plane - or pretty much just a split-time tuck turn (from the Free Lessons - HERE) continuously.



It also made what i'd call a waist-wrap move a "BTB waist wrap" - which sounds overly complicated and wordy and only one hand is BTB anyway.



As I said, I use the term (as do several others) as I said in the second sentance; one arm btb, in wall plane - cos then you can have WW butterflies, WW 5bt weaves, "throw it from a waist wrap" - and it all makes sense.



Incidentally, i'd like to take this opportunity to point out i'm always right about this kind of thing, unless Simon or Cole says i'm not, in which I case i'm still right, but less so wink


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UCOF
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Posted:Spike: I think Stone was referring to your original post of:

 Written by: Spike

I looked for videos\tutorial regarding WW but I found only two videos by someone (sorry, forgot your name :P) and i can't see them, dont know why though.



confused


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TheBovrilMonkey
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Posted: Written by: Search



I don't like the original "Waist Wrap" move that people first used, which was just split time spinning at your side in wall plane - or pretty much just a split-time tuck turn (from the Free Lessons - HERE) continuously.







Yeah, I also don't like that definition, because it's only a sixth of a full waist wrap.

Just like this one:

 Written by:



Right, Waist Wrap to me, that is in poi terms, is wall plane with one hand BTB - that's it.





tongue



 Written by:



It also made what i'd call a waist-wrap move a "BTB waist wrap" - which sounds overly complicated and wordy and only one hand is BTB anyway.





Not quite - it'd be wallplane hip circles with one hand btb smile

Closest to BTB waist wrap would be one pair of circles there, a pair of circles behind your back, then a pair of circles (with the other hand behind your back) on the other side, then a carry (or possibly more circles if you're nigel wink hug) back to the start.

I'd call that a BTB half waistwrap.



I'm all for making terms more economical to use, and I accept that maybe a lot of people don't recognise the term 'full waist wrap' anymore, but I also don't see why we have to abandon terms that've been fairly well defined (in Anna Jillings' book, the wikipoidia, Michal's poi book and, I think, the Gandini club swinging dvd), for a while now.

EDITED_BY: TheBovrilMonkey (1189616736)


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Hi sp1ke333, I posted a link to a sample video at media circus. Its from the Gandini club swinging dvd, and has a full fountain. The lower part of the fountain is a waist wrap.

Search do a Durbs. Warning: If you wade into this one with your own definitions you could possibly drown, if you are winding us up you could also possibly drown wink

I'll bump the Club/torch swinging thread.

Well said Bov.

I'd call that a BTB half waistwrap, a hipster or waist circle. All precursors to the waist wrap.

Nigels extra circles are what I think of a the hip tangle (double) start in front of left leg.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Durbs
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Posted:smile

Well, I guess it's the difference between "Waist Wrap" being a specific move and a variation/body position.

 Written by: Sir Bov of the Monkeys


Not quite - it'd be wallplane hip circles with one hand btb



...except, depending on your point of view, wall-plane hip circles each have one hand btb for half a beat smile
In my mind, "waist wrap" implies something being wrapped around the waist, which the "split time tuck turn repeated" doesn't have.

"Full Waist Wrap" I never fully understood, other than being what I'd call a proper (;)) waist-wrap, but then I don't get why you'd name something "Full", as this just means it's the proper/complete version smile

Yay! Bring on more semantic waffling biggrin


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Incidentally, i'd like to point to the top of this thread at the large words saying "Poi Moves".

Take all your badly named club swinging moves with you, and don't let the door hit you on the way out wink


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