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sp1ke333
sp1ke333

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Member Since: 14th May 2007
Total posts: 24
Posted:Hello everyone! I looked for videos\tutorial regarding WW but I found only two videos by someone (sorry, forgot your name :P) and i can't see them, dont know why though.

Is there any tutorial somewhere, maybe something new that has been posted recently? Thank you very much!


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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

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Posted: Written by: Search


"Full Waist Wrap" I never fully understood, other than being what I'd call a proper (;)) waist-wrap, but then I don't get why you'd name something "Full", as this just means it's the proper/complete version smile




I think it's just to give it more emphasis that the full waist wrap is the proper/complete version.
Otherwise people very quickly pick up on the behind the back part as a waist wrap but don't generally include the bit in front as well

 Written by:


In my mind, "waist wrap" implies something being wrapped around the waist, which the "split time tuck turn repeated" doesn't have.



I agree, which is why a repeated split time tuck turn isn't a waistwrap.
It's a part of one, but only in the same way that a circle spun at your side is part of the weave.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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sp1ke333
sp1ke333

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Posted: Written by: Stone


Hi sp1ke333, I posted a link to a sample video at media circus. Its from the Gandini club swinging dvd, and has a full fountain. The lower part of the fountain is a waist wrap.




yes i found it! Thanks for the video!


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Stone
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Posted:Excuse me, mr search,

 Written by:

Incidentally, i'd like to point to the top of this thread at the large words saying "Poi Moves".

Take all your badly named club swinging moves with you, and don't let the door hit you on the way out



Ill think youll find that nearly all (say 80%) of the so called poi moves discussed at HOP, originate from club swinging. Certainly Maori short poi is nothing like what you describe as poi.

This has all been discussed before. Bov put some links on page one, I recommend doing a search and some home work. Try Jillings or Kahn. Then come back when you can make a positive contribution.

cheers


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:ubblol

Sheesh, there seems to be an awful lot of missed sarcasm in this here thread smile

Aaaaaaaaaanyway, yes yes modern poi derives many things from club swinging.

I don't want to turn this into another arguement about semantics and definitions - however I would possibly offer up the suggestion that many of the poi spinners I know use the term waist-wrap to describe the position, as opposed to specific move - what jugglers would call a half contortionist I think (or half straight jacket?).
Possibly as many of them haven't read club swinging books or Drew's-I-mean-Michal's poi swinging book smile

PS. I thoroughly enjoyed being told to do a search, i love the taste of irony in the morning ubblol


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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:Also, if it strictly means a certain move, how would you explain w/w butterflies, 5bt w/w weaves and such-like?

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PinkNigel
PinkNigel

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Posted: Written by: TheBovrilMonkey


I'm all for making terms more economical to use, and I accept that maybe a lot of people don't recognise the term 'full waist wrap' anymore, but I also don't see why we have to abandon terms that've been fairly well defined (in Anna Jillings' book, the wikipoidia, Michal's poi book and, I think, the Gandini club swinging dvd), for a while now.



.."For a while" being since they all got the name from the Schatz book, I'm thinking...


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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Stone
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Posted:Ok, perhaps that was a bit harsh. I agree the name waist wrap sucks. I learn't it as the fountain, though these days I think the waist wrap might be a bit different.

I'll have a go at explaining the fountain later. But basically it hooks up together, the front with the BTB fountain (waist wrap) into full in front fountain. Its a great sequence. The building blocks are the exercises you describe. I call them waist circles; joined together they are called the hip coffee grinder wink

 Written by:

Also, if it strictly means a certain move, how would you explain w/w butterflies, 5bt w/w weaves and such-like?



Ok for a start the 80% of moves I referred to were the basic moves. Some have names, most are just exercises. Like, you would hardly go to a juggling conventions with your own definition of a cascade. These moves are also well documented in books by Jillings, Kahn, Schatz and others.

The waist wrap is a 2 or 4 beat move (follow circles). The five beat weave, like its cousin the three beat weave, is not a basic part of waist wraps or fountains. Though you can change gear by chucking in an over/under. This will take you from a 2 beat move to the three beat weave (cross and follow). Also from a lower to top fountain, sans the carry/pass.

confused


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:Let's not start using the word fountain eh? There's the largest can of worms on the planet there ubblol

Just a genuine query - "The waist wrap is a 2 or 4 beat move" as in it can be both or you're nor sure which it is?
Cos if it can be both, straight off it's rubbish having one name for 2 variations on a move (let alone the dozens of other not-strictly-w/w variations wink )

Meh - video please smile


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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

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Posted: Written by: PinkNigel


.."For a while" being since they all got the name from the Schatz book, I'm thinking...



Quite possibly - it's been a fair while since I dug out my copy of Schatz, and it's never easy reading at the best of times, so I couldn't remember if he mentioned the waist wrap at all.

 Written by: Durbs


however I would possibly offer up the suggestion that many of the poi spinners I know use the term waist-wrap to describe the position, as opposed to specific move - what jugglers would call a half contortionist I think (or half straight jacket?).
Possibly as many of them haven't read club swinging books or Drew's-I-mean-Michal's poi swinging book smile




That's one of the reasons I've been making sure to add the 'full' in front of the waist wrap.
I'm starting to think it's futile to keep insisting that the term waist wrap is used just for the whole club swinging pattern and not anything that involves one hand crossed behind your back.
But I'd still like the full pattern to have a proper name.

I'll see if I can borrow a video camera from someone at Bristol for a while and make a video. Hopefully that'll include what I've provisionally named a 'head wrap' (an upside down waist wrap with the behind the back parts changed to behind the head) wink


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Stone
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Posted:Schatz doesnt refer to the waist wrap, thats English nomenclature. He describes the front, btb and full fountain. I prefer fountain, because in addition to many poi spinners using waist-wrap to describe the position, having an upper waist wrap just doesnt make sense.

The waist wrap is a 2 beat move, though at an advanced level you can do 4, double tangle. I think thats what PinkNigel was describing. Call it the double waist wrap if you like.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
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Posted:Well sp1ke333, we havent been much help have we. The waist wrap is a club swinging move, which is a bit different to poi. To me, poi is more about forward reverse, and btb weaves; working the circle. With club swinging its more about wall plane moves, twisting your trunk and working a stage. An advantage of learning some club moves is that it will lead you to develop a great technique (especially in regard to planes).



So the waist wrap is not a weave. Its made up of follow circles (windmill/mills). If you start weaving you loose the pattern. The windmill consist of long arm and shoulder circles. I learnt the windmill with poi by speeding up one poi while doing chase the sun. Poi people would call this the giant windmill. The circles for the top part of the windmill are done behind the head. See Jillings Fig 12.2.



So, if you still want to learn the waist wrap check out Jillings Lesson 17 Waist Circles and Waist Wraps. Then try these:



This is how the front one goes. Follow to the right - lower back circles with right; back of waist, arm-over-front with left; lower front right; and front of waist, arm-over-front with left.



This is how the back one goes. Follow to the right - lower back circle with right; back of waist, arm-over-back with left; lower front right; and front of waist, arm-over-back with left.



Good Luck



Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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sp1ke333
sp1ke333

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Posted:Thank you Stone..I noticed that my thread suddenly developed into an argue regarding terminology...which is actually good because we still have to make things clear in poi jargon.
Anyway, even though i'm a beginner, i know that a windmill (a move i can do properly) is a variation of a weave. From what u said it looks like that it's not true....now, who is right? I hope I dont create a mess again with this statement! biggrin

Regarding my trainings, unfourtunately i need at least a video to get into a move, i cant really understand from written explanations, although sometimes they help of course! smile


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Stone
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Posted:Hi sp1ke333, Im not sure how you do the windmill. Is it like the video in the HOP Library - Poi, Beginners part 2, Windmill?

Note the circles for the top part of the windmill are done behind the head.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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sp1ke333
sp1ke333

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Posted:I do it properly and i can say so because i've been taught by some english experienced poists and they told me that it's a variation of a weave

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Stone
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Posted:sp1ke333, Im not being critical. Im sure you do the windmill properly.

You said you wanted to learn the waist wrap. All Im asking is if you do the top part of the windmill behind the head? If go in front, then Id say it was an overhead weave rather than a windmill.

Also, if its a variation on the weave, then where is the over under out ?


weavesmiley


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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sp1ke333
sp1ke333

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Posted:sorry stone, i wasnt even thinking that u were critical smile u have probably misunderstood the tone of my answer...

Coming back IT...well, there's no "over under out" because it's a 2-beat weave (so "over and out" only)
I found a video about that move i'm referring to:

http://www.italianpoi.eu/cms/index.php?o...ey=22&hit=1

how would you call that?


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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:In poi terminology, that's a windmill, somecall it an overhead weave (2-bt), you can do a 4-bt version, but it's not really worth it IMHO smile

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Stone
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Posted:Hi spike, thanks for link. It looks like a windmill.

If you know how to do the windmill, then you know how to do the waist wrap. Its just doing continuous circles behind, or in front of the right hip; and then continuous circles behind, or in front of the left hip. I call the continuous circles follow circles, but they are also known as hipmills or just mills.

The full waist wrap is just a name for a combination of moves that links front and back hipmills. The carry, under-over and extra circle are used for transitions (links).

As a clubswinger, Id suggest trying these moves first with a wooden spoon or even clenched fists, before poi. That way you dont have to worry about chains.



Durbs, what do you mean it's not really worth learning the windmill? Its a basic building move. Besides, continuous hipmills behind the back, are one of the sexiest moves in the business.


woot smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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sp1ke333
sp1ke333

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Posted:thanks stone, that description helps to make things clear but still i cant manage to do it...
this probably depends on the fact that i cant do the hipmill (i feel that there's something wrong in my back circles)
one day i'll do it, i just need more practice!


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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted: Written by: Stone


Durbs, what do you mean it's not really worth learning the windmill?



I meant the 4bt windmill, 2bt is a building block for so many moves smile


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Stone
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Posted:Hi spike, how are the waist wraps going?



Hipmills from Michal Kahns Poi Spinning book. The hipmill is step one of the waistwrap. It is similar to the windmill, but by one hip. The right hand leads, and poi spin one circle behind and in front of the right hip (not behind the back)."



Id suggest learning the front waist wrap first (poi spin a circle behind right hip (not btb), a circle in front of belly button, a circle behind the left hip, then carry back to the right hip and start the movement again.



So, to link the front and back waist wraps instead of doing the carry, just take your left arm over the back and start circles behind the right hip (btb).



Durbs, fair point.







smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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sp1ke333
sp1ke333

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Posted:Hi Stone..Now i'm actually working on other things and i'm practicing just some hipmills to get into the feeling of them. It seems that I got it with the right hand but my left hand still doesnt want to learn it :P
Anyway, i'm waiting to meet someone who can show me (live) the waistwrap before concentrating on practicing it.

thanks for the hints!


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Stone
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Posted:Hi spike, good stuff.

I know Italy is a big place, but you might be able to track down PK sometime. Amongst other wicked moves, he has an amazingly good butterfly waist wrap.

Keep on spinning

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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E_a_g_l_e
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Posted:In fact it's a move by mills section (cause the mills are the moves in wall plane with poi moving in same direction). is it right?
EDITED_BY: E_a_g_l_e (1192720513)


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TinklePants
TinklePants

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Posted:couldn't do a waist wrap when i was thinner, no point in learning now i'm bigger!

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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Geeza
Geeza

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Posted:Is it a forward btb weave, then backward btb weave, but done in front of you?

I think i can sort of do it, but not quite


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Sambo_Flux
Sambo_Flux

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Posted:Copied and pasted from my post in a different waist wrap thread...

OK, wallplane weaves and waist wraps are NOT the same thing. They're related, but distinct moves.

It's called a waist wrap because it's an old club-swinging move. Weaves were called cross-follows back then, trivia fans!

So here's the breakdown of the moves.

A wall plane weave is a forwards 3bt weave to reverse 3bt weave and back again, done in the wallplane, with the transition between forwards and backward either in front of you, or behind you. A fountain is where the forward to backward transition is done low, and the backwards to forwards bit is done high.

A waist wrap is very similar, but done using a 2bt weave base, rather than a 3bt weave one. It also involves carries from the end of the pattern back to the start again. Say you're spinning anti-clockwise, and you start the pattern on your left hand side... the order of beats is this:

LH: behind your left hip
RH: behind your left hip
LH: in front of you
RH: In front of you
LH: in front of you
RH: In front of you
LH: behind your right hip (at this point your LH starts to carry the poi over in front of you, and start step 1 again)
RH: behind your right hip (at this point, your RH will carry in front of you, following your left hand, into step 2).

To do this behind the back, take the steps above and swap wherever it say "in front" for "behind" and vice versa.

A full waist wrap is simply a front waist wrap linked to a BTB waist wrap.

It's also worth noting that there are 4 front waist wraps (left to right or right to left, with high or low carries), and 4 BTB ones (same as above). This means there are actually 8 full waist wraps that are possible (I can only do about 3).

Hope that helps!


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TinklePants
TinklePants

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Posted:so no 3bt - thats where I've been going wrong! aaaaaaah.... still whack my boobs though. got the muscle memory (practiced with clubs funnily enough) now to get the poi planes right....

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