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Forums > Social Discussion > legal question of copywrite

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:If there are any law people out there I'd really appreciate some advice on this. Preferably detailed responses by PM but generally in here is fine too smile Oh and if people could state known fact as apposed to supposed fact I'd be very grateful. Thanks! hug



It seems a new festival has arisen called....Play Festival. Albeit spelt PL:ay Festival their website is playfestival.org and I was wondering how I stood with regard to copywrite?



I first discussed and expanded ideas of the festival concept (mostly through this forum and the manipulation scene) and asked for suggestions from the community back in late 2004.



The name Play Festival was suggested and donated by Durbs and obviously I have loads of evidence that we have had two festivals in 2005, 2006 wink heheh



But I've never registered the "trade mark" of play festival



Anyway, I wish them all the best and it sounds like a lovely one day event that's free too but I'd rather they didn't use our name. As I read it anyway.



Nobody would do Reading Festival for actually reading books or The Big Green Gathering for people who like to paint big things green in large groups so why Play Festival for video and visual arts? Surely they would have picked us up before naming their festival even if only when registering a domain name or doing that google that we all do with names? Especailly when you think of a new company name!



tinkers....


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:eek

I know there's people will say that in a free market place all is fair... but this sucks.

Possibly biased because I know you guys... but nonetheless... a small google search (fairly basic when naming any new project) would have shown the original Play...

Bah humbug.

Dunc... even if there's nothing can be done about it, it's not going to be a threat to you and the crew.

xx


Getting to the other side smile

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:It does suck...have you talked to them about your concerns?

Unfortunately unless you have registered the name then there is not much you can do except talk to them and hope that maybe they will be nice enough to change it.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:It costs about 300 Euro to register a trademark and "festivals" is a legal category. Unfortunately you are not living in Germany, where the European Office for Patents and Trademarks is situated, otherwise you could safe on costs for a lawyer.

It really all depends on what you intend to do, but you CAN do something about it.

European Patent Office Homepage


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006

georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 2387
Posted:I saw that site a few weeks ago and sent you an e-mail asking if your 2 events were linked since the date of theirs seemed to coincide (but since you never read your e-mails... ubblol )...

Even if the law is on your side, you probably can't do too much about it unless you are prepared to go to court. But you should contact them, point out you were there first and please choose another name. You never know, they might play ball.

George


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Its hard to read email at a work address when I havnt worked there for nearly a month G wink



I have sent them a very pleasent email asking why they never approached us regarding using our name. Are there no intellectual rights for us to own the name and brand without it being registered?


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:What happened to that rip off of HoP?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:If you register the name now and it comes to legal actions, you will succeed. If you don't register and they do, you loose even if you came up with the name before them, even if you have proof that you used the name before them - but I'm not 100% sure about this.

I am bound for Munich tomorrow (bye bye Bangkok) and IF you send me a PM with details, I would pass by the EPO and just jump in for a quick chat with one of their ppl (they are not authorised to give legal advice, but they are good in talking between the lines)... would cost nothing but an hour of my time.

However I hope your "pleasant" eMail has the desired effect. I gain the impression that they are no commercial orientated bunch - that is good for you, they might have just not done a search (compare it to repeated threads on HoP), thought it to be a splendid idea and just went ahead.

I'd guess they are just into promoting their own artwork and find a wider platform, however I find it strange that they even seem not to have Googled it at all...

Good luck


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:http://www.playfestival.be/

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006

georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 2387
Posted:What Tom said Dunc - without any paperwork to back you up, you are going to have rely on the "nice e-mail" doing it's thing. If that fails, maybe you can get a couple of scary looking guys drop by and pay them a visit?? wink

And to answer Rouge's question - they became very reasonable after some of the people who were using that portal pulled out of it when the situation was explained to them. The gentleman concerned then decided to let us hire the domain from him - try it for yourself: www.homeofpoi.eu

Hopefully Dunc, those people will be as understanding. If they still want their site, perhaps you could have them put a wee paragraph and your logo in one corner saying something like "If you were looking for the juggling, poi, staff extravaganza that is [insert logo here], click here..."
Most people are reasonable. They don't always set out to intentionally upset others, and when you give them easy options out of the situation, they usually respond positively. You jsut have to find the middle ground.

Good luck with it Dunc.
George


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:it goes to "fireswinging dot com" how many names is this thing under???

ooh! does it still work under juggle.co.nz or whatever it was?? (i had it in a bookmark so i never needed to type it)

*goes to check*


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006

georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 2387
Posted:and where does fireswinging go missy???
smile


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:it LOOKS like HoP, but it SAYS fireswinging tongue

and juggle no work. or else i buggered it up


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006

georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 2387
Posted:http://www.juggling.co.nz/

we are evvveerrryywhere! There is no escape!!! wink
ubblol ubblol


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:ah dammit! it was ~ing! I knew I was close! ubblol

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Oi you lot this is Social Discussion not Chat tongue

Thaks for the info, if you could do that for us Tom I'd really appreciate it. PM in the mail....

hug


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Yakumo
SILVER Member since May 2006

Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire

Total posts: 1237
Posted:Mirroring what I said in the play thread as I've just found this, I think a friendly 'are you aware ...' type email would probably be a good idea, making them aware of your long standing, and general large community, Play is known all over the UK now.

suggesting they have a 'are you looking for Play skilltoy festival' type links may work, but they would expect a similarly prominent crosslink back, which imo is of greater value to them piggybacking off the established festival for promotion (increases search engine prominence if nothing else).
It would also be accepting damage to your festival branding, weakening any case against any subsequent problems.

NB. IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)


Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted:gday mate, so just to clear a few things up. Copyright applies to anything you create, unfortunately you cant have copyright over a word. As far as trademarks go they are expensive and you need to get legal advise if you are going to file for one (ie what is it that you are trademarking ie the shape, colour scheme, font etc and what it covers you for), im fairly sure that because their logo is very different to yours and is spelt differently --> a trademark wouldnt do you any good anyway.

It sucks but to do anything other than an email/phone call is going to cost you lots of $$$ and time with very little chance of winning and it wont give you your expenses back. Basically if your quality of life isn't getting severely screwed or your a big corporation stay out of court wink


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Glåss
PLATINUM Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:>"Are there no intellectual rights for us to own the name and brand without it being registered? "

Nope - thats what registering is all about!

Additionally you could prevent them registering the name because you have prior use.

In the grand scale of things I think it makes no difference.
Play festival will happen and be a success - both of them.


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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:For the record it should be noted that I did advise that this might happen almost 3 years ago now, when I first got the domain names. (playfestival.co.uk, playfestival2005.co.uk and playfestival2006.co.uk.)



PLAY Festival isn't the first play festival. IIRC the only reason I didn't buy playfestival.com is because at the time is was owned by some US acting festival (it's now dead).



I think if you were the first person to call something play festival then you might have some right to jump up and down about it, but seeing as you weren't then I can't see how you would have a leg to stand on.



Also, as I said on the thread about the hop rip off thing - if they are no threat then why bother doing anything? There isn't any inherent confusion between what festival is what, is there?


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Thanks guys, I'm much more the 'happy to coexist' type of person and I don't need reminding of what happenned three years ago Toyer90 wink And no it doesn't need noting tongue



It is a very generic term for acting festivals especially in the US and means a Play Festival ie a Festival of Plays rather than THE Play Festival where people attend a festival to Play. There is a PLAY Festival in Germany but who cares, they're miles away and their dates don't conflct with ours and the chance of actually having a problem with each other is minimal->none.



To be honest I'm more worried about other potential legal impacts of this rather than someone else using the name for an event, and thanks for that little peice of advice Drew smile



It does seem like a lovely event and if it wasn't for the fact that it's on our weekend I'd be very happy to attend and meet them all smile



Emails have been sent back and forth with them and they seem like genuinely lovely people, they've also recognised the fact that it is our 'brand' and they have no intention or strategy to start a butterfly effect of litigation and lay claim to it, which is good cuz they'd lose going by the legal advice I've just had smile



Ales Kla ubbrollsmile


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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4991
Posted:Think of the people that might stumble upon your site Dunc.... increased ticket sales!!... you could be top trumping!!.

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Dunc - I'm still on it... but I won't touch Munich before 29th. Hope that's still okay for you. hug

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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PyroWill
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines

Total posts: 4437
Posted:Phew, I was just about to buy my ticket! Maybe this other festy is cheaper and with less hippies wink

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Okay - I made the time (cut it out of my left thigh)

The trademarks department has got this to say:

As long as you can prove that your "PLAY" festival is running longer than theirs, you have the name. There's nothing they can do about it. You don't have to register and even if they register the name now, you are safe.

You can attempt to register the name and will be able to sue the living crap out of them, you may be able to do this even without registering. Any which way they have to let the name go - I'm not sure of the domain, but I would say: yes, even the domain, because you play festival is older and has a bigger audience. People who look up "Play festival" on the internet expect your festival and not some dummy...

Hope I could have been of some help, enjoy the festival, sleep tight - no more nightmares.

YAY for PLAY for EVER!

You rock, Dunc!

sunny


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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