Forums > Social Discussion > legal question of copywrite
Login/Join to ParticipateGOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
If there are any law people out there I'd really appreciate some advice on this. Preferably detailed responses by PM but generally in here is fine too
Oh and if people could state known fact as apposed to supposed fact I'd be very grateful. Thanks! 
It seems a new festival has arisen called....Play Festival. Albeit spelt PL:ay Festival their website is playfestival.org and I was wondering how I stood with regard to copywrite?
I first discussed and expanded ideas of the festival concept (mostly through this forum and the manipulation scene) and asked for suggestions from the community back in late 2004.
The name Play Festival was suggested and donated by Durbs and obviously I have loads of evidence that we have had two festivals in 2005, 2006
heheh
But I've never registered the "trade mark" of play festival
Anyway, I wish them all the best and it sounds like a lovely one day event that's free too but I'd rather they didn't use our name. As I read it anyway.
Nobody would do Reading Festival for actually reading books or The Big Green Gathering for people who like to paint big things green in large groups so why Play Festival for video and visual arts? Surely they would have picked us up before naming their festival even if only when registering a domain name or doing that google that we all do with names? Especailly when you think of a new company name!
tinkers....
If there are any law people out there I'd really appreciate some advice on this. Preferably detailed responses by PM but generally in here is fine too
Oh and if people could state known fact as apposed to supposed fact I'd be very grateful. Thanks! It seems a new festival has arisen called....Play Festival. Albeit spelt PL:ay Festival their website is playfestival.org and I was wondering how I stood with regard to copywrite?
I first discussed and expanded ideas of the festival concept (mostly through this forum and the manipulation scene) and asked for suggestions from the community back in late 2004.
The name Play Festival was suggested and donated by Durbs and obviously I have loads of evidence that we have had two festivals in 2005, 2006
heheh But I've never registered the "trade mark" of play festival
Anyway, I wish them all the best and it sounds like a lovely one day event that's free too but I'd rather they didn't use our name. As I read it anyway.
Nobody would do Reading Festival for actually reading books or The Big Green Gathering for people who like to paint big things green in large groups so why Play Festival for video and visual arts? Surely they would have picked us up before naming their festival even if only when registering a domain name or doing that google that we all do with names? Especailly when you think of a new company name!
tinkers....
Let's relight this forum 
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
I know there's people will say that in a free market place all is fair... but this sucks.
Possibly biased because I know you guys... but nonetheless... a small google search (fairly basic when naming any new project) would have shown the original Play...
Bah humbug.
Dunc... even if there's nothing can be done about it, it's not going to be a threat to you and the crew.
xx
I know there's people will say that in a free market place all is fair... but this sucks.
Possibly biased because I know you guys... but nonetheless... a small google search (fairly basic when naming any new project) would have shown the original Play...
Bah humbug.
Dunc... even if there's nothing can be done about it, it's not going to be a threat to you and the crew.
xx
Getting to the other side 
SILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
It does suck...have you talked to them about your concerns?
Unfortunately unless you have registered the name then there is not much you can do except talk to them and hope that maybe they will be nice enough to change it.
It does suck...have you talked to them about your concerns?
Unfortunately unless you have registered the name then there is not much you can do except talk to them and hope that maybe they will be nice enough to change it.
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
It costs about 300 Euro to register a trademark and "festivals" is a legal category. Unfortunately you are not living in Germany, where the European Office for Patents and Trademarks is situated, otherwise you could safe on costs for a lawyer.
It really all depends on what you intend to do, but you CAN do something about it.
European Patent Office Homepage
It costs about 300 Euro to register a trademark and "festivals" is a legal category. Unfortunately you are not living in Germany, where the European Office for Patents and Trademarks is situated, otherwise you could safe on costs for a lawyer.
It really all depends on what you intend to do, but you CAN do something about it.
European Patent Office Homepage
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
I saw that site a few weeks ago and sent you an e-mail asking if your 2 events were linked since the date of theirs seemed to coincide (but since you never read your e-mails...
)...
Even if the law is on your side, you probably can't do too much about it unless you are prepared to go to court. But you should contact them, point out you were there first and please choose another name. You never know, they might play ball.
George
I saw that site a few weeks ago and sent you an e-mail asking if your 2 events were linked since the date of theirs seemed to coincide (but since you never read your e-mails...
)...Even if the law is on your side, you probably can't do too much about it unless you are prepared to go to court. But you should contact them, point out you were there first and please choose another name. You never know, they might play ball.
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it. 
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
Its hard to read email at a work address when I havnt worked there for nearly a month G
I have sent them a very pleasent email asking why they never approached us regarding using our name. Are there no intellectual rights for us to own the name and brand without it being registered?
Its hard to read email at a work address when I havnt worked there for nearly a month G
I have sent them a very pleasent email asking why they never approached us regarding using our name. Are there no intellectual rights for us to own the name and brand without it being registered?
Let's relight this forum
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
What happened to that rip off of HoP?
What happened to that rip off of HoP?
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
If you register the name now and it comes to legal actions, you will succeed. If you don't register and they do, you loose even if you came up with the name before them, even if you have proof that you used the name before them - but I'm not 100% sure about this.
I am bound for Munich tomorrow (bye bye Bangkok) and IF you send me a PM with details, I would pass by the EPO and just jump in for a quick chat with one of their ppl (they are not authorised to give legal advice, but they are good in talking between the lines)... would cost nothing but an hour of my time.
However I hope your "pleasant" eMail has the desired effect. I gain the impression that they are no commercial orientated bunch - that is good for you, they might have just not done a search (compare it to repeated threads on HoP), thought it to be a splendid idea and just went ahead.
I'd guess they are just into promoting their own artwork and find a wider platform, however I find it strange that they even seem not to have Googled it at all...
Good luck
If you register the name now and it comes to legal actions, you will succeed. If you don't register and they do, you loose even if you came up with the name before them, even if you have proof that you used the name before them - but I'm not 100% sure about this.
I am bound for Munich tomorrow (bye bye Bangkok) and IF you send me a PM with details, I would pass by the EPO and just jump in for a quick chat with one of their ppl (they are not authorised to give legal advice, but they are good in talking between the lines)... would cost nothing but an hour of my time.
However I hope your "pleasant" eMail has the desired effect. I gain the impression that they are no commercial orientated bunch - that is good for you, they might have just not done a search (compare it to repeated threads on HoP), thought it to be a splendid idea and just went ahead.
I'd guess they are just into promoting their own artwork and find a wider platform, however I find it strange that they even seem not to have Googled it at all...
Good luck
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
What Tom said Dunc - without any paperwork to back you up, you are going to have rely on the "nice e-mail" doing it's thing. If that fails, maybe you can get a couple of scary looking guys drop by and pay them a visit??
And to answer Rouge's question - they became very reasonable after some of the people who were using that portal pulled out of it when the situation was explained to them. The gentleman concerned then decided to let us hire the domain from him - try it for yourself: www.homeofpoi.eu
Hopefully Dunc, those people will be as understanding. If they still want their site, perhaps you could have them put a wee paragraph and your logo in one corner saying something like "If you were looking for the juggling, poi, staff extravaganza that is [insert logo here], click here..."
Most people are reasonable. They don't always set out to intentionally upset others, and when you give them easy options out of the situation, they usually respond positively. You jsut have to find the middle ground.
Good luck with it Dunc.
George
What Tom said Dunc - without any paperwork to back you up, you are going to have rely on the "nice e-mail" doing it's thing. If that fails, maybe you can get a couple of scary looking guys drop by and pay them a visit??
And to answer Rouge's question - they became very reasonable after some of the people who were using that portal pulled out of it when the situation was explained to them. The gentleman concerned then decided to let us hire the domain from him - try it for yourself: www.homeofpoi.eu
Hopefully Dunc, those people will be as understanding. If they still want their site, perhaps you could have them put a wee paragraph and your logo in one corner saying something like "If you were looking for the juggling, poi, staff extravaganza that is [insert logo here], click here..."
Most people are reasonable. They don't always set out to intentionally upset others, and when you give them easy options out of the situation, they usually respond positively. You jsut have to find the middle ground.
Good luck with it Dunc.
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
it goes to "fireswinging dot com" how many names is this thing under???
ooh! does it still work under juggle.co.nz or whatever it was?? (i had it in a bookmark so i never needed to type it)
*goes to check*
it goes to "fireswinging dot com" how many names is this thing under???
ooh! does it still work under juggle.co.nz or whatever it was?? (i had it in a bookmark so i never needed to type it)
*goes to check*
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
and where does fireswinging go missy???
and where does fireswinging go missy???
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
it LOOKS like HoP, but it SAYS fireswinging
and juggle no work. or else i buggered it up
it LOOKS like HoP, but it SAYS fireswinging
and juggle no work. or else i buggered it up
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
https://www.homeofpoi.com/
we are evvveerrryywhere! There is no escape!!!
https://www.homeofpoi.com/
we are evvveerrryywhere! There is no escape!!!
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
ah dammit! it was ~ing! I knew I was close!
ah dammit! it was ~ing! I knew I was close!
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
Oi you lot this is Social Discussion not Chat
Thaks for the info, if you could do that for us Tom I'd really appreciate it. PM in the mail....
Oi you lot this is Social Discussion not Chat
Thaks for the info, if you could do that for us Tom I'd really appreciate it. PM in the mail....
Let's relight this forum
SILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
Mirroring what I said in the play thread as I've just found this, I think a friendly 'are you aware ...' type email would probably be a good idea, making them aware of your long standing, and general large community, Play is known all over the UK now.
suggesting they have a 'are you looking for Play skilltoy festival' type links may work, but they would expect a similarly prominent crosslink back, which imo is of greater value to them piggybacking off the established festival for promotion (increases search engine prominence if nothing else).
It would also be accepting damage to your festival branding, weakening any case against any subsequent problems.
NB. IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)
Mirroring what I said in the play thread as I've just found this, I think a friendly 'are you aware ...' type email would probably be a good idea, making them aware of your long standing, and general large community, Play is known all over the UK now.
suggesting they have a 'are you looking for Play skilltoy festival' type links may work, but they would expect a similarly prominent crosslink back, which imo is of greater value to them piggybacking off the established festival for promotion (increases search engine prominence if nothing else).
It would also be accepting damage to your festival branding, weakening any case against any subsequent problems.
NB. IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)
Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
gday mate, so just to clear a few things up. Copyright applies to anything you create, unfortunately you cant have copyright over a word. As far as trademarks go they are expensive and you need to get legal advise if you are going to file for one (ie what is it that you are trademarking ie the shape, colour scheme, font etc and what it covers you for), im fairly sure that because their logo is very different to yours and is spelt differently --> a trademark wouldnt do you any good anyway.
It sucks but to do anything other than an email/phone call is going to cost you lots of $$$ and time with very little chance of winning and it wont give you your expenses back. Basically if your quality of life isn't getting severely screwed or your a big corporation stay out of court
gday mate, so just to clear a few things up. Copyright applies to anything you create, unfortunately you cant have copyright over a word. As far as trademarks go they are expensive and you need to get legal advise if you are going to file for one (ie what is it that you are trademarking ie the shape, colour scheme, font etc and what it covers you for), im fairly sure that because their logo is very different to yours and is spelt differently --> a trademark wouldnt do you any good anyway.
It sucks but to do anything other than an email/phone call is going to cost you lots of $$$ and time with very little chance of winning and it wont give you your expenses back. Basically if your quality of life isn't getting severely screwed or your a big corporation stay out of court
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
>"Are there no intellectual rights for us to own the name and brand without it being registered? "
Nope - thats what registering is all about!
Additionally you could prevent them registering the name because you have prior use.
In the grand scale of things I think it makes no difference.
Play festival will happen and be a success - both of them.
>"Are there no intellectual rights for us to own the name and brand without it being registered? "
Nope - thats what registering is all about!
Additionally you could prevent them registering the name because you have prior use.
In the grand scale of things I think it makes no difference.
Play festival will happen and be a success - both of them.
BRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posted:
For the record it should be noted that I did advise that this might happen almost 3 years ago now, when I first got the domain names. (playfestival.co.uk, playfestival2005.co.uk and playfestival2006.co.uk.)
PLAY Festival isn't the first play festival. IIRC the only reason I didn't buy playfestival.com is because at the time is was owned by some US acting festival (it's now dead).
I think if you were the first person to call something play festival then you might have some right to jump up and down about it, but seeing as you weren't then I can't see how you would have a leg to stand on.
Also, as I said on the thread about the hop rip off thing - if they are no threat then why bother doing anything? There isn't any inherent confusion between what festival is what, is there?
For the record it should be noted that I did advise that this might happen almost 3 years ago now, when I first got the domain names. (playfestival.co.uk, playfestival2005.co.uk and playfestival2006.co.uk.)
PLAY Festival isn't the first play festival. IIRC the only reason I didn't buy playfestival.com is because at the time is was owned by some US acting festival (it's now dead).
I think if you were the first person to call something play festival then you might have some right to jump up and down about it, but seeing as you weren't then I can't see how you would have a leg to stand on.
Also, as I said on the thread about the hop rip off thing - if they are no threat then why bother doing anything? There isn't any inherent confusion between what festival is what, is there?
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
Thanks guys, I'm much more the 'happy to coexist' type of person and I don't need reminding of what happenned three years ago Toyer90 And no it doesn't need noting
It is a very generic term for acting festivals especially in the US and means a Play Festival ie a Festival of Plays rather than THE Play Festival where people attend a festival to Play. There is a PLAY Festival in Germany but who cares, they're miles away and their dates don't conflct with ours and the chance of actually having a problem with each other is minimal->none.
To be honest I'm more worried about other potential legal impacts of this rather than someone else using the name for an event, and thanks for that little peice of advice Drew
It does seem like a lovely event and if it wasn't for the fact that it's on our weekend I'd be very happy to attend and meet them all
Emails have been sent back and forth with them and they seem like genuinely lovely people, they've also recognised the fact that it is our 'brand' and they have no intention or strategy to start a butterfly effect of litigation and lay claim to it, which is good cuz they'd lose going by the legal advice I've just had
Ales Kla
Thanks guys, I'm much more the 'happy to coexist' type of person and I don't need reminding of what happenned three years ago Toyer90
And no it doesn't need noting It is a very generic term for acting festivals especially in the US and means a Play Festival ie a Festival of Plays rather than THE Play Festival where people attend a festival to Play. There is a PLAY Festival in Germany but who cares, they're miles away and their dates don't conflct with ours and the chance of actually having a problem with each other is minimal->none.
To be honest I'm more worried about other potential legal impacts of this rather than someone else using the name for an event, and thanks for that little peice of advice Drew
It does seem like a lovely event and if it wasn't for the fact that it's on our weekend I'd be very happy to attend and meet them all
Emails have been sent back and forth with them and they seem like genuinely lovely people, they've also recognised the fact that it is our 'brand' and they have no intention or strategy to start a butterfly effect of litigation and lay claim to it, which is good cuz they'd lose going by the legal advice I've just had
Ales Kla
Let's relight this forum
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,998 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,998 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
Think of the people that might stumble upon your site Dunc.... increased ticket sales!!... you could be top trumping!!.
Think of the people that might stumble upon your site Dunc.... increased ticket sales!!... you could be top trumping!!.
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Dunc - I'm still on it... but I won't touch Munich before 29th. Hope that's still okay for you.
Dunc - I'm still on it... but I won't touch Munich before 29th. Hope that's still okay for you.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
Posted:
Phew, I was just about to buy my ticket! Maybe this other festy is cheaper and with less hippies
Phew, I was just about to buy my ticket! Maybe this other festy is cheaper and with less hippies
An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind
Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife
"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Okay - I made the time (cut it out of my left thigh)
The trademarks department has got this to say:
As long as you can prove that your "PLAY" festival is running longer than theirs, you have the name. There's nothing they can do about it. You don't have to register and even if they register the name now, you are safe.
You can attempt to register the name and will be able to sue the living crap out of them, you may be able to do this even without registering. Any which way they have to let the name go - I'm not sure of the domain, but I would say: yes, even the domain, because you play festival is older and has a bigger audience. People who look up "Play festival" on the internet expect your festival and not some dummy...
Hope I could have been of some help, enjoy the festival, sleep tight - no more nightmares.
YAY for PLAY for EVER!
You rock, Dunc!
Okay - I made the time (cut it out of my left thigh)
The trademarks department has got this to say:
As long as you can prove that your "PLAY" festival is running longer than theirs, you have the name. There's nothing they can do about it. You don't have to register and even if they register the name now, you are safe.
You can attempt to register the name and will be able to sue the living crap out of them, you may be able to do this even without registering. Any which way they have to let the name go - I'm not sure of the domain, but I would say: yes, even the domain, because you play festival is older and has a bigger audience. People who look up "Play festival" on the internet expect your festival and not some dummy...
Hope I could have been of some help, enjoy the festival, sleep tight - no more nightmares.
YAY for PLAY for EVER!
You rock, Dunc!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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