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Forums > Social Discussion > Following Your Own Path - Discussion on Self-Based Religion

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LilBBoy
SILVER Member since May 2006

LilBBoy

Discoverer of Rainbow Cheese
Location: Inverness, Scotland.

Total posts: 143
Posted:Hey all! First, thanks for reading this post and I hope the subject interests you. This thread is about what has become known to people as "unofficial religion", or as the school computers tell me when I try to do research on it; "Unofficial/Indigenous/Occult Beliefs".

After being a Buddhist for 2 years, I have found deep satisfaction in my life. Everything has changed for the better. However, I feel that there is more to the story than Buddhism tells. I believe, unshakably, that there is a God, which Buddhism attempts to, in a sense, dispel.

I find it extremely interesting that some of the people I know and love follow their own paths; their own beliefs, which no-one can distort with their own. I find these people admirable and, to say the least, courageous.

What do all of you beautiful people think about this topic? biggrin wink

Peace & Love hug ubblove


Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:And I don't confused

repeating my question: Do you take the Bible literally?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:not really

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:So you don't take the Bible literally...

Personally I respect it's content and the people, who use it as a (moral) guideline, even though I regard it as a work of fiction as some of the events described did not actually happen (the way they are described).

However, Dezzy - could you deplete some more informations about the the "Unitarian Universalists"? apart from what they tell us on their homepage.. ??


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:just show respect to other beliefs, calling a Holy Book fiction is not doing so and directly contradicts the posting guidelines

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Is pointing out that a holy book has some fictional elements offensive?

Does the fact that a holy book has some fictional elements make it less holy?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:that he calls a book that i consider to be the Words of God fiction, i find very offensive

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Why do you find it very offensive?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:because it is a Holy object, like the Cross
one of the guidelines is whether or not is the posting offensive or something like that...
if i said anything like that people would be jumping down my throat, but i'm an evil Christian and no one cares


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:In the context of an online discussion, I feel it's not particularly helpful to take the 'I'm an evil christian/no-one cares' approach.

If, instead, you tried to convey why you're finding it offensive, then maybe others would see your point of view.

Personally, to me, simply saying 'cos it's holy', doesn't really explain why it's offensive.

I consider several buddhist texts to be holy- the fact that they're widely acknowledged to be fictional, to me, does not detract from them in the slightest, or make them less worthy.

Most people would agree that the bible has, at least, fictional elements ie it describes events that did not happen.

Your previous post where you said that you don't really take the bible literally, seems to suggest that your yourself realise it contains at least some fictional elements.

Sorry if I'm missing something here, but I'll ask again- why do you find the suggestion that the bible has fictional elements, offensive?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:he called it fiction, it is a holy book
why is it so hard to understand that would be offensive


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:confused

I said and stick to, that even though I regard (at least parts of) the Bible as fictous, I respect it's content and the ppl who believe in it. If you regard my posts offensive and against the guidelines of this bb, you may report them to the mod's, Faith.

(btw: Have you ever observed the interaction between a chained and an unchained dog, when out for a walk?) juggle

Believe me, when I say that I respect the sacredness of your book - maybe you (as well) respect the sacredness my self (-based religion)? umm wink hug

To me it's not that much about whether or not something is fiction, but what it triggers (in me)...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


he called it fiction, it is a holy book
why is it so hard to understand that would be offensive



It's hard to understand because you're not really making much effort to explain why referring to a holy book as fiction is necessarily offensive.

Earlier I pointed out that the fact that certain buddhist holy texts are regarded as fiction is not offensive- to me this demonstrates that pointing out the fictional content of a holy book is not grounds for accusations of offence.

However, if you can't, or don't wnat to, go into it further, then fair enough- personally I se nothing offensive in someone referring to the bible as fiction, if you do, then like Tom says, you're free to notify the mods.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave



 Written by: faithinfire



he called it fiction, it is a holy book

why is it so hard to understand that would be offensive



It's hard to understand because you're not really making much effort to explain why referring to a holy book as fiction is necessarily offensive.





Personally I find the suggestion that the Bible isn't at least partly fiction offensive, given some of the pronouncements it makes. Sames goes for the Quran. I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead, or that Mohammed was a prophet, ergo I considered both works at least partly fiction.



Would we have any trouble refering to the texts of Scientology as fiction?


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:heh. Well at least the bible and the qur'an have a couple of good ideas in them!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:@ 87wt2gxq7: I completely agree! BOTH books hold vital informations, guidelines and ideas - as many more books (no matter whether or not fictional) - also The Celestine Prophecy (pt. 1) holds important ideas, so does The Alchemist...

I personally find it tricky, if s/o is ready to start a fight over "sacredness" of this or that - I mean it's not as if I use the sheets in the restroom or to plaster my walls and in no ways I can detect much disrespectful manner in my approach.

My personal philosophy incorporates that one can and should speak her/ his mind (in which respect it's totally okay that you said what you said, Faith) - these (for me) are "the words of god", just as much.

"God" (in my understanding) is neither a machine, nor linear in actions, but as much contradictous as reflected in the world and ourselves.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:FireTom, what I posted was in response to jeff(fake)'s comparison of the Bible and the Qur'an with, say, Dianetics.

I meant that okay the B&Q might have allegorical passages, they're certainly guilty of heavy metaphor, and one section of the Bible in particular appears to be an account of a particularly strong psylocybin trip... but at least the B&Q have a lot of good buried in there. Unlike Dianetics or any other book of Scientology which, as far as I can see, are completely devoid of any merit whatsoever.


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burningoftheclavey
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

burningoftheclavey

lurking like a ninja with no camouflage..
Location: over yonder, New Zealand

Total posts: 926
Posted:im interested in this Unitarian Universalist way.. sounds very intruiging and goes along with my beliefs... must look into it further.. smile

on spam robots - "Burn the robot! Melt him down, and then we can make lots and lots of money from his shiiiny juices!"

Owned by Brenn smile

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: wikipedia

A Reader's Digest article of May 1980 quoted Hubbard as saying in the 1940s "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion



 Written by: 87wt2gxq7

Unlike Dianetics or any other book of Scientology which, as far as I can see, are completely devoid of any merit whatsoever.



ubblol to me the merits of the work of Mr. Hubbart are pretty obvious... His quote, as cited by Wikipedia, exactly gets the point and clearly describes why I personally am basing my beliefs on my own experience and do not intent to follow anybody elses movement - including christian, islamic and buddhist churches.

IMHO the philosophy of "enlightened" (or awaken) ppl are bound to be corrupted into "religions" who (only in fractions) reflect their original teachings.

Therefore I can only appeal to anybody to render their own minds and belief systems, which ultimately might lead into (spiritual) freedom. shrug

We don't need a leader... juggle


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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burningoftheclavey
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

burningoftheclavey

lurking like a ninja with no camouflage..
Location: over yonder, New Zealand

Total posts: 926
Posted:Tom you're totally right but it doesnt harm to look into other religions at the same time... sometimes i think i dont need a leader but perhaps maybe sometimes just a guide to tell me the difference between intuition and thought.... juggle ubblol

on spam robots - "Burn the robot! Melt him down, and then we can make lots and lots of money from his shiiiny juices!"

Owned by Brenn smile

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:ditto to both the above!

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted: Written by: burningoftheclavey


the difference between intuition and thought....



Hmm... I don't think there is a difference. I don't see how there can be.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: 87wt2gxq7


 Written by: burningoftheclavey


the difference between intuition and thought....



Hmm... I don't think there is a difference. I don't see how there can be.



I would say intuition is thought without the inner monologue.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:This debate reminds me of the proverb Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

To me, religions like Buddhism teach people to fish by providing self help philosophies that work by showing people how to reach harmoney and enlightenment in this life. On the other hand, dogmatic religions like Christanity give people fish, and rely on people blindly following rules so that they might reach enlightenment in the next life.

faithinfire you said a soul is what connects us all to each other, the general moral compass, the nudge of conscience that some listen to more than others. This sounds rather nebulous to me, show me a soul and I might believe you.

barefootwonder7, you say And I agree, I see God most often through nature - in fact, its when I'm in the midst of nature that I find it impossible to understand that anyone could believe it wasn't created by some sort of intelligent being - It's all so intricate and beautiful and amazing!

To me, this indicates that you cant accept things as they are, and like the human beings we are, we make up stories like it was all created by a supreme being, so we can understand the understandable. Much like the Australian Aborigines following their Dreamtime.

barefootwonder7, enough of these sacrifices! The secret is in Genesis, just dont eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That path leads to death and destuction. If you want an example, just look at how the children of the book (Jews, Christians and Muslims) are slaughtering each other today in the Middle East.

The alternative is to seek an understanding of the meaning of life through philosophies like Buddhism. Buddhism teaches people the way to understand themselves, how to live with other people in harmony, as well as achieveving enlightnement in this life.

The big trick to reaching enlightenment is to get over yourself and your own "self-importance " (ego/soul/self), and accept that looking for salvation in a supreme being/God is a waste of time, and having faith that you will end up in Heaven is just procasternation, like waiting to win lotto,

The Old Testament is basically the Jewish bible, and has little in common with the world today.

So, Christians tell me, if the bible is such a holy book then how come it has led to so much destruction, persecution and death through the ages?



ubbangel


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Stone

Buddhism teaches people the way to understand themselves, how to live with other people in harmony, as well as achieveving enlightnement in this life....

So, Christians tell me, if the bible is such a holy book then how come it has led to so much destruction, persecution and death through the ages?






Much as I value (and practise) buddhism highly and agree that, of all the 'religions', it's about the most practical and least open to misinterpretation- in all fairness I feel it's worth mentioning that a prime reason it's not led to the same kind of misery and destruction that christianity/Islam have, is simply because it's not as popular.

Certainly,in places where it has become the state 'religion' it results i pretty much the same scenario that christianity/Islam does- ie a dogmatic, spiritualy empty system and a form of social control.

I'd also say that the majority of 'buddhism' practiced worldwide today is watered down, innacurate and used in pretty much the same way as Christianity/Islam is.

Equally, much as the majority of Christian/Islamic practice is pretty empty (spiritualy), there are a minority of practitioners who get the same kind of benefits as those making effective use of buddhism.

Ultimately, it's probably more down to the quality of the practitioners than of the particular system/philosophy/religion.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Stone and OWD: clap one compliments the other IMHO, thank you both. hug



Yet I am very careful about the point where people claim to follow, or even to simply have knowledge of the original... Not even IF all the original teachings WERE to be exactly recorded, one can step into the exactly same footsteps. Times change and so do we. Funny enough there seems to be something that persists: curiosity...



 Written by: Jeff





 Written by: 87wt2gxq7





 Written by: burningoftheclavey



the difference between intuition and thought....





Hmm... I don't think there is a difference. I don't see how there can be.





I would say intuition is thought without the inner monologue.





I double that, mostly the monologue starts right after the intuitive instant, trying to reason rolleyes shrug



[edit, since nobody has replied yet]



But back to the initial question: IMHO if someone wants to base his "religion" upon himself, one should take a careful look at what is out there already. Explore, observe and be very alert. In this one may find the end of the rainbow smile hug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1170395299)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Double post: well, what to do?

Burningman (german) posted this one on poiforum.de - I guess it's well worth clicking. Also the corresponding website seems interesting:

Philosophy of liberty

If thoroughly considered, it opens a can of worms...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:just one thing
imho someone has a higher claim on my life
ok that's it-going away now


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:... certainly on my life, too - he's called "death" wink

(*points at OWD's signature*)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Good point FireTom, but do we really own our own lives? Do we really have freewill? Or, are we at the mercy of our deterministic brain and the subsequently programming we receive through our life? Are we not in fact just biological robots going through the motions?

Thanks to the many discussions on Artificial Intelligence at HOP it was pretty hard to for me escape the conclusion that we are in fact anything more than robots. Thats why philosophies like Buddhism work for me.

Buddha had a natural gift for psychology, and imo, following his teachings is one way we can break our deterministic programming and become free thinking people in command of our own destiny.



wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:programing = fate
if so just because we are predisposed and probablity leads to certain decisions, i still make that choice
a little offtopic, but not completely...the ending of the movie stranger than fiction dealing with fate and free will


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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