• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 
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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I received my copy a couple of days ago and I've got to say it's pretty amazing- really high quality of spinning and production from the entries.



Thanks once again to Malcolm and HOP for providing this opportunity to the spinning community. I notice that the price of the DVD is less than 5!- that's a real bargain and I'd recommend that everyone reading this gets themselves a copy.



The case looks a lot better this year, nice simple lilac design showing the idea of the spinning community around the world.



One thing I would like to see on future COLs would be a menu to save cycling through all the entries to get to particular ones, I think that even the most basic DVD writing packages have the ability to create a basic menu.



That aside, I reckon that this is the best COL ever.



The entries fall into two categories- those based on demonstrations of skill and those which are exceptionally well produced (visual quality, editing etc); with several falling into both those categories.



It's interesting to see that there are also two distinct styles of spinning- slow/graceful and very fast indeed- and we seemed to have finally reached a point where the skill level of the fast spinners has reached that of the slow ones



Also a lot of very effective pair, group and syncronised spinning- a look at the excellent 'fire Groove' shows how effective three people doing basic moves in time with each other looks.



My first flick through left me feeling a little negative amount the perponderance of fire in the dark, it seeming that everyone was on fire, with me feeling that it didn't accurately represent the actual proportions of fire to non-fire of our community.



However, having gone through the DVD several times, I do have to admit that, much of the fire is skillful fire.



Nevertheless, some of the skillful, but non-fire, stuff, really does stand out as a result of being surrounded by the rest- hopefully everyone will notice this and be more inclined to send in more daylight videos next year.



IMO it was good that, this year, fire-breathing was not permitted; while it's down to personal choice as to whether anyone practices this health-damaging spectacle, I really do appreciate the fact that I don't have to watch it on COL.



====================



I'm not going to go through every entry, as there are 30 in total and I've only had the DVD a couple of days- I'm finding that pretty much all the entries have something special when watched more than once.



Circumstantial Evidence- Very polished double staff routine with costume and a couple of fire lamps which seem to improve the lighting a lot.



Elias on Fire - despite the name, Elias was one of the few people not on fire, for which he has my gratitude as it enables us to admire his exceptional level of ability with double staffs, including some very neat contact moves.



Planet Zips - Fire, but skillful fire, with the female of the group having a very nifty dancey style.



The Story of the Lake - starts with graceful lakeside flags and goes onto an interesting combination of fire poi and fire-hands, then onto some scarily-long fire ropes; all skillfully done.



One Wheel Dave - that's me; possibly my last appearance on COL as my mates just bust his camera frown (Cheers to Tempest for once again doing the filming for this entry)

As always it's difficult to comment on my own stuff- any feedback from others will be appreciated.



The Amazing Rubber Heart Duo - very effective use of Singaporean-news-woman-voice-over talking about their world tour, cut with clips and images of it at the start. Based on one of their street shows, given a interesting look at how spinning can be performedin a live audience context- some truly excellent multi-staff passing. I also loved the background music.



Robert Bruce - another master of the 'slow spinning' style. Difficult moves and combinations made to look easy and relaxed.



Faisca - I'm not normally a fan of fast spinning, but this is good stuff, reminiscient of glowstringing.



Instruments of the Now - interesting because of the group members voice-overs detailing their various philosophies of spinning, much of which seems based on similar principles to the spiritual principals of martial arts: this kind of stuff is easy to pontificate about, but here it's well backed-up by the high levels of skill showing that they clearly have put in thousands of hours of practice in their chosen arts. Nice to see a bit of fire-devil-stick in there.



Fire Groove - Professional is the word that comes to mind- seems to have been shot on various film sets with a variety of effective costumes. Mainly syncronised spinning with beautiful music. If ever a film producer required some atmospheric spinning, this group would surely be the high on the list of possibilities.



Fire Sisters - UV surreality of the highest order (with matching music) smile it's always good to have something so totally different on the DVD- I especially liked the staff fight.



Infinitos - well thought out and rehearsed duo routine.



Dee D'Caro - very tight poi- the first time I saw this I wasn't really paying attention and so missed the fact that there's some meteors in here, done every bit as smoothly

as the poi.



Pheonix - excellent temple-like location with good use of fire-lamps to boost the light levels; well thought out paired routine and an unusual one-footed staff spin.



Arsn - As always, superb slow graceful sock-spinning, this year with some nifty throws; the final scene of handing over the tools of the art to the next generation was a nice touch smile



~SYNGE~ This is the last one on the DVD and I liked it a lot; with very effective use of good stills cut into the action; I also thought the music was great- unusually for COL it was some kind of Melodic Death Metal


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:chapters would be convenient, however the chapter skip function works smile

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Personally I think most of the COL vids are considerably better lit and more interesting than most free internet downloads.

Having said that, these days I don't really download much as I got fed up of the low quality of much of the stuff that was coming down (badly lit, newbie spins, over-long credits/intros etc).

With a few notable exceptions (eg Yutas vid) it was getting difficult to filter out the dross without searching through threads discussing the vids- and the rise in popularity of 'streaming disallowed' hosting like 'YouTube' pretty much ended my inclination to watch inet vids.

I rate COL highly and am very glad that Malcolm/HOP puts in the effort to bring it out next year.

As for the price, at under a fiver it's an absolute bargain.

 Written by:



And for the record, my entry was filmed from different camera angles, in costume, at an excellent location - only it's still on camera somewhere in Australia
Next year...




Of course, one way to ensure high quality COL is, for those with high level skills, to ensure they get entries in smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Ah yes, sorry, my post did come over a little more negative than planned smile

COL is still an excellent little DVD, and does indeed give a good indication of the different fwirling arts around the world - and for the price you can't really complain (notice that I am though wink ).

OWD - I'd speak to Ben-ja-men about ensuring entries get in. Bloomin' pseudo hippies and their "Yeah I'll edit it and send it off" lies wink
(Joking! Love you Ben hug)


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Rovo's videos, vicereds video, had's video, ben-ja-mens and imakokodes videos, meast's video, (what happened to a meast entry g'damnit!) and dave from colorado's video... loon's videos... these are all good videos shot with good light. All this year... There's porbably more good poi ones out there, but hey, I wouldn't know... lazyangels one for the nature challenge stands out...

I love youtube, after all, you don't know if it's going to be any good, so why download it? With youtube you can download, just not in a very nice format...

Maybe we should make a internet version of COL and see what it's like... ubbidea

I can and will complain: I bought it (with my own monies) and I'm british.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted:personally the videos that have mirror images and special effects annoy the hell outta me.
I watch COL to see the spinning. The level of skill a particular person has is much more interesting to me, than to see how good someone looks in a costume or how much they can wiggle.

So the special camera effects gives me the irrits when I want to see how a particular trick or move is done, and there is a mirror image which is distracting, or making it hard for you to see whats really going on.

I suppose its each to their own really isnt it? I would perfer to see some one in a well lit area, spinning technically very well with no camera effects, than someone in a full on costume doing the butterfly on top of the leaning tower of Pisa, with their reflection next to them doing the same thing.


bah. smile rolleyes

any way malcolm did a great job as per usual, and I really liked some of the new tricks I saw. biggrin


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: Durbs


OWD - I'd speak to Ben-ja-men about ensuring entries get in. Bloomin' pseudo hippies and their "Yeah I'll edit it and send it off" lies wink
(Joking! Love you Ben hug)



its the thought that counts dont ya know ....

ubblol hey look a unicorn *waits for paul to look then legs it*


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hello Hello... wave

Haven't been in here yet...

Just wanted to say thanks for all the lovely comments about the Story of the Lake clip.

I wasn't sure whether or not to send it in (hence the title ).

It was filmed over four hours one night (four days before the deadline) at Portavoe Resevoir, outside Bangor, Northern Ireland.

The music was supplied by the outstanding Mo-Seph ( www.mo-seph.com ) - double staffer and musical genius.

The filming, editing and all things technical were done by Gary Watson - a lovely guy who does research work for the BBC. He also put up with my diva-like tendencies and frantic phonecalls redface smile

Anyways... thanks to everyone for the feedback, and I hope you enjoy the clip - I'm amazed at the standard on COL 6, and really delighted to have been included...


It's probably not a good idea to single out favourites - since I enjoyed watching everyone - but these are the ones I remember the most rolleyes

Elias on Fire - great technical stuff...
Planet Zips - lovely funky movement... influenced by the lovely Jools? smile
Dragon's Dream - nice slow-mo with the moon
OneWheelDave - lovely meteory stuff... I'm just getting into some of these things with flags.
RHD - meh. I think you need to practice more tongue Hehehehehe... you guys are awesome. I love the video, it's friendly, a showcase, well-filmed, great music... hug
Instruments of the Now - Brave idea... encorporate philosophy with the spinning... and one which should be developed further...
Fire Groove - Wow. Ladies, you are hot. Beautiful, beautiful shots, costumes, tight choreography... really enjoyed it, well done smile
The Dance of the Three - Hey! I know that guy!! He applies tiger balm to interesting parts of the body... Dan, you rock... crazy split-screen, colour changes, funky eclectic style to match your spinning. Great to see you again hug
Phoenix: Really nice setting and tight choreography
Arsn: I love your style... I loved your dance in Col 2005, and this is wicked too - The only thing was that I'd have put you on the other side of the fence... smile
~Synge~ - Fabulous pictures and great to see in a video... a really nice closer clip.



Ok then... thanks so much to everyone for sharing their skills.

Take care
Clare x


Getting to the other side smile

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave

Of course, one way to ensure high quality COL is, for those with high level skills, to ensure they get entries in smile



i disagree with this mentality.
Durbs, i think so very highly of your contributions to our community and you have been giving to us for so much longer than some have even been registered here.
I'm sure you would have poured your heart and soul into your entry and *thank you* for something made for our benefit ... that i haven't seen!

passion easily manifests as frustration from time to time, what's important is that you have maintained your passion!!!

hug


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:hug

(But actually it was rubbish wink )


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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sketch
GOLD Member since May 2006

sketch

Empirically random...
Location: Lincoln, United Kingdom

Total posts: 431
Posted: Written by: Valura


I would perfer to see some one in a well lit area, spinning technically very well with no camera effects, than someone in a full on costume doing the butterfly on top of the leaning tower of Pisa, with their reflection next to them doing the same thing.





rolleyes you took the words right out of my mouth!


"This dark place planet Earth, orbits one star,
Come from afar, far away state of mind,
open up your third eye, black helicopters in the sky"

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:I guess it's all personal opinion... I do think we should have respect for everyone's interpretation of the art, even if it's not to our own personal taste.


smile


Getting to the other side smile

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ma'tina
BRONZE Member since Mar 2005

ma'tina

multiplex
Location: somewhere..., Germany

Total posts: 611
Posted: Written by: _Clare_


He also put up with my diva-like tendencies and frantic phonecalls




ubblol


- Ho Sa -
kisses & peace & love to beautiful madges
*rever le temps le prendre*

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sketch
GOLD Member since May 2006

sketch

Empirically random...
Location: Lincoln, United Kingdom

Total posts: 431
Posted:ok, i think its all rubbish.

Mainly because my copy just arrived,
and im stuck at work and CAN'T WATCH IT!!! NOOO!

*sobs*


"This dark place planet Earth, orbits one star,
Come from afar, far away state of mind,
open up your third eye, black helicopters in the sky"

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:Watched it the other night with MCP and when we came to a certain routine she's like "so guess who this is then" and after about 30 seconds i'm like "wow it's flame oz" ... "but when did they become Asian?" I've seen flame oz's routine a bunch of times and move for move there it was... confused eek eek eek confused



Asides from the people ripping off flame oz it was entertaining enough. Rubber heart were good. That American dude with the poi who looks a bit like a zombie got me itching to pick the poi up and try some stuff out. ubblove



Er... the rest was a bit like watching people spin at festivals, conventions, clubs etc. Background stuff to be honest. I watch vids to learn and/or be amazed. I've never watched COL before but I had thought that as it was a world wide competitive it'd be really impressive. redface



ah well... juggle


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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linda
SILVER Member since May 2002

member
Location: Toronto, Canada

Total posts: 93
Posted:So, I just calmed down my adorable, panicking fire sister, who thought we were being accused of plagarism on this thread. I saw MCP's original post, so I know what's going on, however, I can see where she may have gotten this idea. (Sorry, Lindsay, I'm blaming this all on you... I was blissfully unaware)


 Written by: mcp


Even if they did, I still don't think they should have entered it on COL. It's still somebody elses routine. What's the point of 'winning' a competition with somebody else's work?

And where did richee's comment go? I loved it. The fire sisters reminded me of the black and white midget minstrels, and I've never even seen that show! Good job!



So, now we're both dying to know what richee said and who the heck are the black and white midget mistrels? I googled it, but no luck.

linda, the shorter fire sister weavesmiley


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linda
SILVER Member since May 2002

member
Location: Toronto, Canada

Total posts: 93
Posted:on a lighter note, I LOVED this video. The bar has been raised sky high. Congratulations to everyone that made it on. I am in awe. There's enough here to learn to keep me busy until the next one. Thank you all for sharing your very special arts.
And super duper thank you to Malcolm for making it all possible.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Zauberdachs





Er... the rest was a bit like watching people spin at festivals, conventions, clubs etc. Background stuff to be honest. I watch vids to learn and/or be amazed. I've never watched COL before but I had thought that as it was a world wide competitive it'd be really impressive. redface



ah well... juggle





Are there any other equivalent vids/dvds to COL?



It's fair enough to say that some internet vids are inspiring/superb (though, in my experience, it is defintily only some)- but putting together a compilation like COL involves a lot more effort.



It has to take account of things like music copyright issues, safety (eg COL doesn't allow fire breathing footage).



If some of the entries are less than outstanding, it's down to what people are sending in- perhaps some of those not happy with the standard may consider contributing next year?



As for the other common complaint, that routines are being ripped off; again, wouldn't this be something that any similar compilation would suffer from?



Spinning routines aren't really things that can be copyrighted and i suspect that the matter of whether someone is copying someone elses routine is, to a large extent, a matter of interpretation.



Presumably, to copy a high standard routine requires a high level of ability- isn't it the case that someone with that degree of skill would probably find it easier to simply create their own routine?



Given that spinning consists of a limited range of moves that can be linked in a limited number of ways, combined with the high number of spinners worldwide; is it fair to assume that just because someone creates a vid that, in the opinion of some watchers, is identical to someone elses routine; to conclude that it's necessarily been stolen?



Mainly though, to those who say COL is a dissapointment, are you saying this in isolation, or, are there other compilations out there that you're comparing COL to and, if so, what are they?



If however, there's a lack of such compilations, maybe it's worth considering why and reflecting on the fact that putting together something like COL requires considerably more effort than is at first obvious.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Dave

Just becasue there may or may not be other compilations that are better or worse than COL has no bearing on whether or not people should be allowed to express there opinions on the current release. Not that you would ever dream of taking that right away from people. You seemed to have elected yourself defernder or COL however, and at the cost of logic.

If you want an example of a high quality compilation, Matts Sphereculism is a good one. I could watch at least 80% over and over again.

Malcolm said there were over a hundred entries and skill level and production quality we're not top of his list for choosing the winners. The vids were chosen to show the most varying degree of toys and nationalities. I.e. The widest customer base.

And why should we use a comparison compilation video justify our opinion of this one. We all know enough about spinning to know what we are talking about.

The fact is, COL is a product and paying customers have the right to complain if they are not satisfied with there product or a part of that product. And it is Macolms responsibility, along with the entrants. To provide a quality product. Like the absence of a menu for example.

I am not satisfied. There are a few really good vids on that dvd. There are loads that I will never watch again. The percentage of good ones though, does not outweigh the cost.

The routine is copied. The question is whether they had permission or not. The chances of them stumbling accross that combination of moves by divine inspiration from the 'finite' wolrd of spinning ideas, is ludicrous. And no, I dont think its something that any compilation video would suffer from.

I dont agree with you dave. And I think your defense of the video is based out of loyalty to HOP and COL rather than out of a critical analysis of the dvd

I for one want Malcolm to know this. I will buy the next COL. I want to support HOP, I like it here. But the dvd's wont get any better without positive AND negative feedback


Love is the law.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:OWD: go watch this and then tell me it's not copied: http://www.fieryarts.net/video/FlameOz.wmv
br>
I've made a list of more and longer videos than are in COL and I've not managed to put one in where a routine is copied, or even have I seen one (until COL) where a routine is copied.

AS I said above, I believe it's hard to think a routine isn't stolen, when the footwork, body positions, movement AND spinning are exactly the same.

I think people are comparing COL to the standard of free videos availible over the internet, which despite your inability to watch any of the good ones due to being on dial-up and not wanting to download from you-tube, is much much higher than COL.

I might consider contributing, but I'd also have to consider how undignified it would be to be on COL, with such a low standard.

linda: I meant "the black and white minstrel show", an old bbc show, the black and white midget minstrels were an inventive of the comic turned playwright daniel kitson.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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sketch
GOLD Member since May 2006

sketch

Empirically random...
Location: Lincoln, United Kingdom

Total posts: 431
Posted: Written by: mcp


I might consider contributing, but I'd also have to consider how undignified it would be to be on COL, with such a low standard.




I think thats the wrong angle completely.
Consider the audience, and how many people of different ability levels watch COL. Every one is spinning at a high standard to somebody else
.
For somebody starting out with poi for instance, an uber techy routine is mind boggling and good to watch, but by no means inspirational or instructional.
However because COL has a very varied selection of styles/abilities, spinners can keep progressing or finding new inspiration from the routines just above their level.

More importantly i think COL reflects the community and the overall standard of spinning within it. Ive watched the last 4 COL videos aswell as this and you can clearly see the progression. Without people like yourself being a part of a dvd like this, spinners would find it harder to be inspired to learn or push themselves, and isnt that what HoP is all about?

I say these things because i havent been here a huge amount of time, and my progression rate (in contact especially tongue) has shot up since ive had access to videos online.
Many people dont get to see these online vids, or dont want to watch the longer ones/instructionl ones, for whatever reason, and COL is a way to put it in their living room, in bitesize chunks.

dont get me wrong, this is not a tree hugging COL defense rant, im just trying to say that alot of people would love to see yourself and other well known spinners/staffers on COL.

BUT thats just my opinion. shrug


"This dark place planet Earth, orbits one star,
Come from afar, far away state of mind,
open up your third eye, black helicopters in the sky"

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:ado-p: yes: people are totally entitled to express their opinions (unless they do so in the manner of the post on this thread that got deleted, as it was an opinion expressed in a neddlessly aggressive and offensive tone).

Equally, I'm allowed to express my opinion, and it's my opinion that much of the critisisms put forward on this thread are not done so in a spirit of positive, constructive critisism.

Again, people are allowed to express themselves in that manner if they wish- equally, I'm allowed to express my opinion that it is not the best way.

COL, like most things, is not perfect- I myself offered critisism on the lack of menu; hopefully I did so in a reasonable and polite way.

It's worth pointing out that, however low in quality you consider COL to be, plenty do appreciate it-

 Written by: linda


I LOVED this video. The bar has been raised sky high. Congratulations to everyone that made it on. I am in awe.




The reason i brought up the issue of other compilations (or lack of them) was simply to suggest that putting together something like COL is a more dificult endeavour than may be supposed.

I guess Matts Sphereculism is the most obvious (the only?) comparision.

Immediately, one difference is the price- it costs almost 3 times as much as COL.

I've not seen it myself, one critisism I've heard is that it promotes smoking (I'm not saying that's true, just what I've heard).

Any compilation is going to be open to critisism by some- I'm defending COL, not, as you suggest, out of loyalty, but because-

1. it is, in my opinion good smile

2. it's never been meant to be a compilation of pure cutting edge spinning technique, rather a representation of the spinning of this online worldwide community

3. It shows a sense of responsibility to that community and it's potential audience by, for example, barring fire-breathing and by not promoting smoking as some online vids have done

4. It actively encourages contributuions from anyone who feels they have something worthwhile to show and have access to a camera; relatively speaking, it's fairly non-exclusive and less cliquey than some of the alternatives (eg posting online).

I like COL, cos it achieves what it sets out to do.

As you say, everyone is entitled to express their opinions: the above are mine.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: mcp


OWD: go watch this and then tell me it's not copied: http://www.fieryarts.net/video/FlameOz.wmv
br>
I've made a list of more and longer videos than are in COL and I've not managed to put one in where a routine is copied, or even have I seen one (until COL) where a routine is copied.

AS I said above, I believe it's hard to think a routine isn't stolen, when the footwork, body positions, movement AND spinning are exactly the same.

I think people are comparing COL to the standard of free videos availible over the internet, which despite your inability to watch any of the good ones due to being on dial-up and not wanting to download from you-tube, is much much higher than COL.

I might consider contributing, but I'd also have to consider how undignified it would be to be on COL, with such a low standard.





Cheers for the link.

One of the points several people here have made is that COL is available to those who don't have access to the online vids you mention.

In the days when I did download online vids it was common for people to compare COL unfavourably to them in terms of standard.

My experience then was that a few of those online vids were indeed of superb standard; however, the majority were, IMO, dross.

For those involved in a community which points out which of the available downloads are quality and who have access to the necessary high speed inet connection, I expect they'll be able to access plenty of quality vids.

Col doesn't attempt to be a compilation of such videos- it's for a family, worldwide audience, it operates within restrictions that online vids aren't subject to (eg no use of copyrighted music, health and safety restrictions etc).

The issue of copied routines is an interesting one and worthy of debate.

The main thing I've been reacting to is not the suggestion of plagarism, but mainly the tone it's been expressed in.

I'm reacting to, what seems to me to be, an implied critisism of COL/Malcolm.

At the end of the day, if people do send in copied routines, what do you expect Malcolm/COL to do about it- they can't spend their lives watching thousands of online vids to check for originality.

Fair enough to point out that, in your opinion, plagerism has occurred, but, realistically speaking, is there anything COL can do to deal with it.

If there were plenty of other such compilations available- wouldn't they be subject to the same issue.

I have no problem with suggestions of plagerism, my problem has been with the angry/aggressive tones (eg the deleted post) and implied critisism of COL.

As for the issue of plagerism itself, i'm open to persuasion but currently feel that, if people post their routines online they're leaving themselves open to other people being influenced by them, or even to direct copying.

I do creative stuff, i acknowledge that, as i do it in a fairly open way, i'm open to being copied.

I don't want to take the approach of being cagey, i much prefer the attitude of being open and, if someone copies it, focus on doing what i do well, which is to focus on my own progress.

Then, if people use something I've created, i'll hopefully be doing something new and better.

If, one day, you see your stuff done by someone else in a non-copyrightable scenaria, you can either get angry, or you can take it as a compliment that someone liked your stuff so much that they wanted to duplicate it.

That's just my thoughts, like I say i realise it's a real issue and I'm open to opposing opinions.

I'm happy for people to constructively critisise COL- i'm happy for them to express their opinions.

Equally they have to acknowledge my right to constructively critisise the tone they use and the way they present their critisims-

 Written by:

I might consider contributing, but I'd also have to consider how undignified it would be to be on COL, with such a low standard.




If I was Malcolm and had spent a lot of time and effort, year after year, some of which were far from trouble-free, putting together these compilations, not for profit, but for the benefit of the spinning community, I think I'd feel a bit gutted by the way the above is expressed.

There's more sensitive ways to put forward critisism.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Knoxious
GOLD Member since Feb 2002

.
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 420
Posted:eh? what's all this about?
Which routine? Staff? Poi? Headbalance?

For the record, the only routine FlameOz has taught other people is bits of our Club Swinging routine.

My general viewpoint is that it's just plain laaaaaame to straight-up copy someone's work. Take something as a template and improve it? Sure...go right ahead...raise the game.

Isn't imitation is the highest form of flattery or summink?

Anyhoo...

peace


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Dave you gaylord, read the thread! It's about your single staff routine with dimitri. I think I saw somebody doing your club swinging routine, you should check out the bristol fire show finale video... wink

Sketch: Yeah I know what you mean. But it's a different feeling for me, I don't want to put anything out that's not up to a level that I'd want to watch. If other people didn't meet the same standards, I wouldn't be angry with them for failing, I'd be embarassed for them. Making tutorial videos is one thing, making a beautiful video of spinning is another. So if I did enter, I would put a lot of effort in, but if nobody else put that much effort in, I'd feel let down and like an idiot for entering in the first place. Which roughly equates to losing dignity.

Man all these tree huggers you talk about seem to have DVD players, shame they also don't have comptuers and broadband...

OWD:

When I insult somebody in rage that they've plagarised somebody else's routine, and I persoanlly slag THEM off. I don't think that implicity critisizes malcolm or the video maker. But that's My opinion.

I was never expecting COL to deal with it. I was hopeing that the people that did it, WOULDN'T get away with it. Because it was publicised on the very website that makes COL. I hope they feel stupid now. Cos they deserve to.

"As for the issue of plagerism itself, i'm open to persuasion but currently feel that, if people post their routines online they're leaving themselves open to other people being influenced by them, or even to direct copying."

Well you know, if people leave their essays and articles on the internet, they're leaving themselves open to students submitting their essays for their assignments. I think it's obvious what every single universities stance is on this.

I don't see what makes spinning routines so very different in terms of plagarism.

This is PLAGARISM. Plain and simple.

Influence is fine, building on is fine, using the ideas in a different way is fine, direct copying = not fine.

I'm sure people have copied your tricks OWD. And I'm sure it is gratifying for you, but they haven't copied the sequence you do them in, your hand positions and body movement when you do them and submitted it to an international video competition. Which I think is the differences in this case.

My tone? Malcolm gutted? I was gutted when I was 12 and people thought my writing style was crap. I was 12 and it hurt y'know. Malcolm is an adult and doesn't need people constantly praising all that he does in order for him to keep doing it. Treating him as so precious and fragile as a child so that we can't critise some of the things he does is soo utterly patronising I can't even begin to imagine.

There's sensitive, and then there's being honest.

Plus I think most people have already turned off their critical faculties when watching COL, so I'm going to use my normal way of speaking (rather than toned down HOP talk) and try and turn them back on.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted: Written by:


As for the other common complaint, that routines are being ripped off; again, wouldn't this be something that any similar compilation would suffer from?
Spinning routines aren't really things that can be copyrighted and i suspect that the matter of whether someone is copying someone elses routine is, to a large extent, a matter of interpretation.
Presumably, to copy a high standard routine requires a high level of ability- isn't it the case that someone with that degree of skill would probably find it easier to simply create their own routine?
Given that spinning consists of a limited range of moves that can be linked in a limited number of ways, combined with the high number of spinners worldwide; is it fair to assume that just because someone creates a vid that, in the opinion of some watchers, is identical to someone elses routine; to conclude that it's necessarily been stolen?



versus

 Written by:


The main thing I've been reacting to is not the suggestion of plagarism, but mainly the tone it's been expressed in.
I'm reacting to, what seems to me to be, an implied critisism of COL/Malcolm.
At the end of the day, if people do send in copied routines, what do you expect Malcolm/COL to do about it- they can't spend their lives watching thousands of online vids to check for originality.
Fair enough to point out that, in your opinion, plagerism has occurred, but, realistically speaking, is there anything COL can do to deal with it.




In fairness, your first reaction had nothing to do with the tone of it... And while I'm sure we all realise that COL or Malcolm can do nothin... Dont you think its fair that someone informs him about it. I also think its fair that everyone else finds out about it too...

 Written by:


The reason i brought up the issue of other compilations (or lack of them) was simply to suggest that putting together something like COL is a more dificult endeavour than may be supposed.
I guess Matts Sphereculism is the most obvious (the only?) comparision.
Immediately, one difference is the price- it costs almost 3 times as much as COL.




Where, in any of the posts previous, did anyone say making COL was easy? Of course its not easy, its still a product though. As for the price of sphereculism. Your being unfair. You keep pointing out how hard Malcolm had to work, and have given Matt no credit at all. If you want to find out how much time and effort it took. All the info is freely available right here on HOP.

 Written by:


If I was Malcolm and had spent a lot of time and effort, year after year, some of which were far from trouble-free, putting together these compilations, not for profit, but for the benefit of the spinning community, I think I'd feel a bit gutted by the way the above is expressed.




Which bit? Ive tried to express my opinion fairly about the dvd, and I did, in fact my biggest reaction has been to your posts. I can think of no better way of supporting hop than buying (as i do almost everythign fire related) from HOP. I own all the COL dvds and a few more to boot. I can think of no better way to improve it, than by highlighting the ways in which I think it could be improved.

 Written by:


I'm reacting to, what seems to me to be, an implied critisism of COL/Malcolm.




This is completly without foundation. I can find no implied critisism of COL/Malcolm.


Love is the law.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:mcp: it's pretty obvious from your posts on this, and other, threads that you don't think much of COL- that's fair enough, that's your opinion, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Concerning what you say about sensitivity- I can't judge whether or not Malcolm is going to feel hurt by someone saying that appearing on COL is undignified because (in their view) it is a low-standard product.

I can say that an individuals age is not relevant when it comes to deciding whether they'll be hurt by a comment- many adults are more sensitive than many children.

When it comes to 'toned down HOP talk', IMO it's far preferable to the kind of aggression that was the norm in years gone by.

Fact is that sensitive individuals have always been a part of this, and all, spinning based communities; the fact that they can speak their minds without being shouted down and otherwise bullied by those who see sensitivity as being somehow disfunctional is, in my view, a sign of progress (IMO).

I also believe that valid points are better and more effectively made by using respectful and non-insulting language.

============

On the plagerism issue- assuming that whole routines have been copied, does anyone have any idea why this would happen?

As I mentioned before, if the routine is of high technical standard, then to copy them move for move, using the exact same body/hand positions, would require a lot of skill and effort- probably more so than simply making up a new routine.

So, if that's the case, I'm wondering why people would copy a routine- any ideas?

Also, for those on COL who've been accused of reproducing someone else's routine, it would be useful to hear their thoughts ie in your view was it copied? If so, in your eyes, is that OK and, if so, why?

(Some of the aggression in the critical posts on this thread are basically designed to make the targets feel stupid, or bad in other ways- one effect of that is that those to whom it is directed are meant to skulk away in silence. However, it may be the case that the individuals either know they're copied, yet consider it OK, or actually deny that copyings taken place.

If so, don't be put off by the aggression of a minority, post your feelings on the matter here, make your case and you'll get a good hearing).

For those who have condemned such copying, is it the actual copying, or the lack of acknowledgement that's the problem?

For example, if in the credits, it was stated that this was 'a tribute to X's performance at Y' would that make it OK, or at least better?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: ado-p



Which bit? Ive tried to express my opinion fairly about the dvd, and I did, in fact my biggest reaction has been to your posts. I can think of no better way of supporting hop than buying (as i do almost everythign fire related) from HOP. I own all the COL dvds and a few more to boot. I can think of no better way to improve it, than by highlighting the ways in which I think it could be improved.







Bear in mind that there's several people here critisising COL- when talking about 'tone' I'm not necessarily referring to your posts.



One example is where mcp refers to COL as being of low standard and that he/she would feel 'undignified' if they were to appear on it- in my opinion that is unnecessarily insulting and, as such, i'm free to express that opinion.



It certainly doesn't refer to anything you've said.



I fully agree that constructive and non-insulting critisism is of utmost value to future COLs.



I feel at this point that, on those issues, we've all pretty much made our points and to continue is likely to lead to circular posting that just leads to everyone getting wound up.



Why don't we put it all to one side and perhaps focus on an issue that can maybe go somewhere ie the plagarism aspect about which I posted some questions in my post above?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Its not that I thought you we're speak to me specificly dave. Its just that I choose only to speak for myself. smile

Love is the law.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I don't think much of COL because I'm continually dissappointed by it. And yet for some reason I continue to buy it. confused

So what if adults are more sensitive than children! They're adults! I'm not going to pander to them because they're less mature than kids, unless they can prove to me they have some medical reason for it. And then I'll treat them like children and not adults. Adults can decide if I'm a source whose opinion is to be trusted and who says things that are and true. It's their decision to be hurt, or to use what I say to change and improve. A child doesn't have that choice in my view. They don't have the experience and maturity to deal with critisism. And therefore their hurt is legitimate.

I've been here for three years and happily have never seen any of this aggression.

Yes valid points are made using respectful and non-insulting language. If I want to disrespect someone or insult them, I'll use insulting or disrespectful language. Hence the rub.

====

Making a new routine is a lot more hard work than copying one. Copying a routine by an international fire troupe that has been successful with that very routine is obviously a good idea. It saves you the trouble of putting time and effort into a crap routine. So suddenly it's less effort and less risk. Two very good reasons to avoid making something new.

I think this has probably been argued better by various other people throughout history, shame hollywood movie execs have taken such keen notice.

I can't be bothered to debate hypotheticals. I'd rather debate what atually happened. Since we have video evidence and all.

If I was a professor and I received a students work, where he said outright that a half of it was copied off an essay on the internet, I'd wonder why he did, since he has only half the essay to receive a good mark on, making it twice as hard. (Or maybe he would only receive half the availible marks at maximum.) Well painting is a better analogy, since you have to have some skill to copy a painting. If somebody gave submitted a slightly rough copy of the mona lisa, I think you'd wonder why. (dave I'm soooooo not meaning to compare you to the mona lisa wink )

oh bugger, I did debate a hypothetical. Damnit.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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sketch
GOLD Member since May 2006

sketch

Empirically random...
Location: Lincoln, United Kingdom

Total posts: 431
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave



On the plagerism issue- assuming that whole routines have been copied, does anyone have any idea why this would happen?



As I mentioned before, if the routine is of high technical standard, then to copy them move for move, using the exact same body/hand positions, would require a lot of skill and effort- probably more so than simply making up a new routine.



So, if that's the case, I'm wondering why people would copy a routine- any ideas?







(Edit: damn you meg, you beat me to it. is this comment plagerism??)



I was just going to stay on the fence and watch this one, but i think i may see the whole situation differently because i am relativly new to the community/spinning.



Had i discovered the joy of spinning a few months earlier, i probably would have attempted an entry to COL. The thing is that for someone like me, who has never produced anything like that, or never been the center of focus while spinning, you kinda think that all of these videos are carefully choreorgraphed, rather than some being completely spontaneous.



I can imagine that being in that mindset could be like a writers block as far as learning a routine is conscerned, and to learn something you know looks good is a safe bet, plus theres no difficulty in deciding what comes next.



I personally would never do it, but i can see how it could happen that way.

just an idea. This probably goes back to the whole idolisation thing aswell. shrug

im probably way of the mark, but hey im just a 'noob' tongue


"This dark place planet Earth, orbits one star,
Come from afar, far away state of mind,
open up your third eye, black helicopters in the sky"

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