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Forums > Social Discussion > UK celebrates minority group repression .

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Gelfling
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

Gelfling

Watcher of 80s cartoons
Location: Chepstow & Bristol

Total posts: 665
Posted:Fact: On the 7th of July 2005 followers of Islam, disaffected by their countrys resolve to go to war and occupy an Islamic nation as well as the level of racism experienced within the UK blew themselves up in a horrific act of terrorism.



Fiction: Their fellow conspirators were captured and latter confessed after using the latest truth extracting techniques (used under the license of new terror laws). A new law permitting the use of the death sentence was rushed through parliament and the conspirators were hung. A public holiday is put in place where the general public are encouraged to hang out character effigies of the conspirators from their doorways and children go round door to door asking for a penny for the terrorist. This holiday is to take place 3 days after the Islamic celebrations of Eid with the aim of reminding Muslims that they cannot get away with terrorism in the UK.



I hope that everyone feels sickened by the thought of such a holiday. I was only able to imagine such a disgusting scenario due to a similar holiday celebrated in the UK. The holiday celebrated is Guy Fawkes Night.



Fact: 400 years ago on the 5th of November a terrorist plot to kill King James, his court, the Commons and the leaders of the Church of England was foiled. The perpetrators of the plot did so due to the repression of the Catholics in England. The conspirators were captured and had their confessions extracted under torture (today in the UK the government in the process of deciding if it should use evidence extracted under torture from other nations in UK cases). The conspirators were killed, some by fire and Catholics in England were denied the right to vote for the next 200 years.



Today children go from door to door asking for a penny for the guy and communities come together to burn the guy on big bonfires and enjoy firework displays and fire performances all round the UK. All this traditionally takes place on the 5th of November, 4 days after the Catholic holiday of All Saints Day.



I dont believe that terrorism can ever be justified. However, to celebrate the ruin of a plot in such a disturbing way as burning a life size model of man is plain wrong. It goes beyond celebrating the ruin of a plot to celebrating the repression of a minority group, celebrating the use of torture and celebrating the death sentence.



There are so many more beautiful things to celebrate in a multi-cultural Great Britain such as Diwali (Tuesday gone), Eid (yesterday) and Halloween (Monday gone) so why celebrate Guy Fawkes Night?


>What do you think about the state of the Earth?
>I'm optimistic.
>So why do you look so sad?
>I'm not sure that my optimism is justified.

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thegreatBJ


Woman! Not gay Man!
Location: Hull...ish

Total posts: 332
Posted:to be fair not may people celebrate it like that anymore... like nearly all holidays the actual reason for it has been mostly forgotten and its just turned into a stupid tradition

and i like bonfire night


I AM NOT A GAY MAN!

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:I'd just like to point out that a lot of people nowadays don't even know who Guy Fawkes is.

I dont think I've ever seen someone ask a penny for the guy in my entire life.

Nor do I think anyone really gives a damn anyway. They like things going bang with pretty colours, and going "ooooooooh" and "aaaaaaaaaaaah". And we of all people know that everyone likes a good excuse for a fire. Its a social thing. A lot of bonding is done.

Not to say that that justifies what was done though.


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Just for the record - the common link here is Religion.

Nov 5th is quite possibly the only national celebration in the UK that I enjoy. Its a day when everyone gets together and play's with fire.

Most other calender events (particularly christmas and easter) are simply a way of extracting money from suckers.


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Its still better than having the bush administration. Or the american public.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:I like Bonfire Night, we hardly have any celebrations in england, we have like 3 that people bother doing anything for, Bonfire Nigth, Christmas, and Easter...everoyne else has paradaes and carnivals, and all sorts were such a boring nation lol.



Anyway, Bonfire Night isnt really about celebrating terrorism or torture, its about celabrating the fact that our monarchy, wich has been going on for thousands of years was saved from a terrorist act, huraaay! (I like the monarchy) and also the house of lords and the other people too. So its really about celebrating our nations pride.



Also you cant compare our own morals and whats acceptable these days with anything sugnificantly in the past, thats just how things were done back then.


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Imagine the bang! A whole metric ton of gunpowder! With a little lithium chloride that could have been really pretty tongue

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:We heard about Guy Fawkes night in English lessons at school. Well. We heard he attempted to burn down the Parliament.

Until I came here last year I thought you guys were celebrating the attempt, not its failure... seriously ubblol


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:ubblol @ Birgit

Yeah, it's like people have said, we wouldn't approve of such a holiday now, but then we wouldn't approve the use of torture (Like Guy Fawkes was, so badly he could barely sign his own confession) either.

I mean, it's Illegal to torture people in custody now anyway... I think. Actually I'm not sure. Anyone know what the Terrorist Bill involves?

But things that go bang and FIRE are always wonderful additions to any night of the year. smile


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:You know Birgit, I was about in the same boat as you..... haha, us silly revolutionaries....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Birgit

Until I came here last year I thought you guys were celebrating the attempt, not its failure... seriously ubblol


Mabey some of us are wink


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I'll be spending guy fawkes day in Ireland, I wonder if they celebrate it and why wink

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:i will be celebrating my housemate's birthday on the 5th biggrin

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Nope, there is no Guy Fawkes night celebrations in Ireland... we're still getting over Samhuin.

smile


Getting to the other side smile

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maus
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia

Total posts: 4191
Posted:Written by: thegreatBJ

to be fair not may people celebrate it like that anymore... like nearly all holidays the actual reason for it has been mostly forgotten and its just turned into a stupid tradition




ditto


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thegreatBJ


Woman! Not gay Man!
Location: Hull...ish

Total posts: 332
Posted:Written by: Sethis


But things that go bang and FIRE are always wonderful additions to any night of the year. smile



apart from one when I have to be up in the morining and need to sleep!


I AM NOT A GAY MAN!

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:The fact that most people refer to it as 'Bonfire Night' shows the origins have faded and it's now a time to light big fires and set off fireworks. And I haven't seen a guy for years. If we didn't celebrate with fireworks on that day we'd find another day.

In Thailand at the moment they've just finished celebrating the end of Buddhist Lent. How? With fireworks everywhere and lanterns in the street. Maybe it's in our nature to want to bun things occasionally and make loud noises.

Also note that originally the effigies burnt were of the pope, and often the devil as well. So the effigies burnt in your fiction wouldn't be the conspiritors but Mohammend. It was only a couple of hundred years after the event that people picked on Guy Fawkes as an individual. In some places in the UK they still burn the pope, but that's a minority. And are these people entitled to freedom of expression of thier feelings towards the Catholic church?

There's lots of festivals we celebrate that we might not actually agree with, but we celebrate them for cultural reasons. As an athiest and opponent of organised religion I still enjoy Easter eggs and Christmas presents just because they're cool and it's part of my culture.


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:"Maybe it's in our nature to want to bun things occasionally and make loud noises."

Yes. I'm all up for a good bunning.

biggrin

Miss you Dom!!

hug


Getting to the other side smile

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Remedy for those who have lost the excitememnt of bonfire night: Walk around your local streets with me! biggrin
(proven remedy, just ask Cantus)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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squarexbear
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK

Total posts: 585
Posted:the pope hasn't been burnt around here for a while - however, gypsy caravans, conservative MPs and various other things have. the fact is that although the origins of Guy Fawkes' Night may be being forgotten, it is still used to celebrate intolerance by *deep breath to avoid getting angry* ignorant and horrible people.

bonfire societies are just an excuse for pyros and nazis to get together, make some noise and set things on fire. ok so we get to set things on fire too (we got to spin in the parade this year) but i don't agree with the reasons behind it at all.

then again, i am a complete ho when it comes to fireworks and will give up any moral, belief or principle to go ooh! aaah! pretty!


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:We've got a big "Bread instead of Fireworks" movement in Germany, encouraging people to not buy fireworks for New Year's but to donate the money instead, and trying to make you feel bad if you decide to blow up fireworks instead.

Fair enough if people want to donate, but why not "bread instead of unnecessary text messages" or "bread instead of brand clothes" or something like that? I like my fireworks smile


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:It was interesting in the UK this year, as there's been some substantial legislation brought in to combat misuse of fireworks (I don't know the exact details, but I believe it makes setting off fireworks outside of certain dates, a criminal offence).

It was good to see the local newsagents not doing their usual thing of stacking up vast amounts of fireworks to sell, and, other than on the 5th, there was a much lower incidence of random fireworks being set off.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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