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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:Well meditation is abit diffrent from aura reading there is alot of reliable scientific evidence to show that meditation can have a mesurable and significant effect on the mind and body. But thats not realy supriseing as there attached smile and as the placebo effect has shown the mind can have a powerful influence on the body.



Also with your example of the blind man and the colour red. Yes while he wouldn't be able to visualise it but he could still prove wether or not someone could see the colour red without seeing it him self.



He could do this by geting five objects indisigusable to him such as five identical cubes with the same texture. only one of which is red, randomly arrangeing them without the other person seeing but so that he knew which the red cube was. then asking the person to pick the red cube. Of course becuase the man can see red he would nail it every time.



The same experiment could in principle be done with auras. five objects that are identical on the surface to normal people but one has a diffrent aura. maby five boxs but one with a person hideing inside.



that is not to say you dont feel the things you talk about im sure you do but are they an external force working from outside the mind and influenceing your brain, or an internal force within your own brain influenceing your emotions and perceptions? I beleave it is the latter however this doesn't detract from the things you feel they are still just as valid as before.



But again there is always the posiblity i am wrong and just like a blind man who can't experiance the colour red and and so doesn't beleave in it. Fortunatly it is still posable to demonstrate that it exists to me.

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Within the world today there are a very large number of people who believe very strange things.

Some people believe that aliens are studying us by rectal probing. Some people believe Yuri Gellar can bend spoons. Some people belive everything the pope says is correct. Some people people believe that hell phyically exists beneath our feet. Still others think the Earth is flat. Others still believe they can live without eating.

All of them make the same general point: They know it's true, why should they have to prove it to a close minded skeptic. If they would just open thier mind to the energies.

All I'm asking is to be shown wrong in a rigorous manner on this one issue. I'm not currently interested in seeing or feeling what you think you do at the moment. I'm not saying anything doesn't exist. I don't want your pity that I can't see the energy. All I'm asking is that someone shows that they can do what they believe they can do.

If anyone is interested. If anyone is at all, just give me a concise description of your claims and we can work from there.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Pity?

Get of your high horse jeff. I was just trying to be nice.


Love is the law.

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: ado-p


Pity?

Get of your high horse jeff. I was just trying to be nice.


That wasn't in response to you, good sir. You are a nice man.

A number of things have been have been said to me outside this thread since I started asking for evidence. They have certainly shaken my faith in man kinds nature.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:In that case, I take it back and apologise for jumping to conclusions.... smile

Love is the law.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I think this is yet to be said but needs to:

*hipthrust*

wink


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


Also with your example of the blind man and the colour red. Yes while he wouldn't be able to visualise it but he could still prove wether or not someone could see the colour red without seeing it him self.


the point was more he would have the knowledge of the colour red but no understanding of it, it carries kind of the same value as wrote learning as while he could discuss at length topics to do with the colour red it would just be symbol manipulation with no attached understanding.

 Written by: jeff(fake)


If anyone is interested. If anyone is at all, just give me a concise description of your claims and we can work from there.


If you are genuinely interested in either proving or disproving ppls claims and are not being a troll then surely you are prepared to do the due diligence to prepare a scientific test? how can you possibly offer a valid insight on how to test for something if you have no understanding/background knowledge of what it is that is being tested? If you are the man of science that you claim you are and where going to do the equivalent to objectively prove or disprove the theory of relativity surely you would do the background reading first?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Drudwyn


Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni

Total posts: 632
Posted:I'm with Jeff on this one, I'm willing to believe if someone could prove it to me. I've got beliefs that I think are true, but I've no way of testing them or showing them to be true and so I do not expect anyone else to believe them. Yes I expect people to be open minded as they are my beliefs, but if I were to say that what I belief was actually true and that everyone who believes otherwise was wrong, then it would be I who were being closeminded.

I'd like to know a little more (excuse me if this has already been mentioned) about auras. Are they skin tight or do they extend several inches away from something? Is it just living beings that have auras? Is it just sentient beings who have auras? Can you see auras through materials? Can you see them in absolute darkness?

Thanks


Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: ben-ja-men



 Written by: jeff(fake)



If anyone is interested. If anyone is at all, just give me a concise description of your claims and we can work from there.



If you are genuinely interested in either proving or disproving ppls claims and are not being a troll then surely you are prepared to do the due diligence to prepare a scientific test? how can you possibly offer a valid insight on how to test for something if you have no understanding/background knowledge of what it is that is being tested? If you are the man of science that you claim you are and where going to do the equivalent to objectively prove or disprove the theory of relativity surely you would do the background reading first?



That's the thing about a proper scientific test ben. I don't need to fully understand the phenomenon in order to determine if it exists or not.



I'm willing to bet few people here understand how general relativity explains gravity, but we can still test that gravity exists. Likewise the theory of relativity make claims about how the stars around the sun should appear during an eclipse. I don't need to understand the theory fully in order to point my telescope at the sun and see if the prediction was correct.



Here's the link again to the scientific method


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Bek66


Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place

Total posts: 4728
Posted:Jeff...I'd like to apologize...I should not have attacked you the way that I did.

You are a scientist...I am a spiritualist...we're not going to agree not matter what...we are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum.

Ia Mania Te Miti


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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crowley2
BRONZE Member since Nov 2005

crowley2

official hop cutie
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton

Total posts: 272
Posted:i would just like to point out because it i keep seeing this being said

I'm willing to believe if someone could prove it to me

over 50% of the earths population believes in a god/higher being yet i haven't seen a shred of proof to there existence.
but yet people belive why?
the question is do you belive in auras? not can u proove auras exsist


The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Accepted fyrespirit.



But I am very serious when I say that I am very willing to change my opinion.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I've been wondering for a while... everyone has to believe in what makes sense to them. It's obviously easier for people who [can, or believe they can, or can through synaesthesia, or whatever,] see auras to believe in them. But where do you draw the line?

If you encourage others to believe in something they can neither see, feel or experience in any other form, should they believe in anything? What seems completely unrealistic to some is normal to others. And yet I've encountered spiritual people who laughed at the idea of a Christian God, or said things like "fxck all Christians", while getting angry if someone laughed at a rune reading.

Now, is that closed-mindedness? And how come the concept of say a virgin birth should be more laughable than that of auras or someone grabbing a couple of painted stones and learning about their future? Or the concept of resurrection and paradise should be made fun of, while karma, rebirth or nirvana are acceptable?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted: Written by: ben-ja-men



 Written by: robnunchucks



Also with your example of the blind man and the colour red. Yes while he wouldn't be able to visualise it but he could still prove wether or not someone could see the colour red without seeing it him self.



the point was more he would have the knowledge of the colour red but no understanding of it, it carries kind of the same value as wrote learning as while he could discuss at length topics to do with the colour red it would just be symbol manipulation with no attached understanding.







That is true but as jeff said we dont have to understand how something is working to test it exists. Just as the blind man can do a test to see the sighted can see red without any knowlage of the colour himself.



first we must astablish something exists before we can begin to worry about understanding it. In this case we can simply use people who do have understanding. they clame that understanding gives them abilitys people who dont understand lack.so by simply testing the abilitys the understanding gives them we test the underlyeing understanding what ever that may be. This is the very core of sientific method.



For example very very few people understand quantum mechanics a good quote is "if you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you dont understand quantum mechanics" some could argue no one realy understands it. however just because we dont understand whats going on doesn't meen we can't test the predictions it makes. which are insainly accurate ( equivelent to predicting the width of north america down to the width of a human hair ) this leads us to conclude that however baffling and counter intiutive the underlying knowlage that gives us these results it must in some sence be right.



As jeff said just because the sceptical have no ability in the area there examining. Doesn't prevent them from scientificly testing the abilitys of those that do. i'ed also like to join jeff in saying i am willing to change my view if the facts support that i was wrong. infact i would be extatic to find out this was true and if we could prove it it would net everyone involved a nobel prize.

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I'd quite like to try an experiment with reiki and a thermal imaging camera.

I know that when I use reiki, my hands feel really hot, and I can feel energy flowing out of them. To me, and the recipient, the energy feels hot.
It would be interesting to film it with a camera to see if the temperature does increase.

I am trying to think of a way to investigate auras... hmm..


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:that sounds like a very intresting idea a cheaper and ( if less effective ) preliminary test might be to hold a thermitor while you do it and see if the tempriture changes if this comes up positive then try to get hold of a thermal cam. it might also be intresting to messure things like blood flow into your hands while you do it. i'ed love to see the results smile



on a seperate note i've had a thought the skeptics have talked alot about what it would take to convince them that they are wrong.

Out of intrest what evidence, event, experiment etc would it take to convince the beleavers that they are wrong?

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:thats very nice jeff did you actually read it?

 Written by: website


"I. The scientific method has four steps
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
.....




see step 1 in your link? you have not observed the phenomena that you propose to test!!! in addition you have no understanding of it hence you can not move on to the second step of formulating the hypothesis. its like asking a 10 year old to be the judge in the supreme court, they wouldnt be able to do the job because they dont have enough experience in the world and understanding about what it is they are being asked to do.

testing easily observable phenomena is one thing, testing claims of perception which is a subjective experience is totally different one. please tell me jeff what is the testing that you propose?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:you have not observed the phenomena that you propose to test!



lol yes thats very true but you'll note that that is exacly what were trying to do at the moment. Observe the phenomena by testing it only once we've manged to test the phenomina sucesfuly can we move onto the formulation of a hypothesis(understanding). useing the results we colected from our observations. you see the testing comes first then we do the understanding.



what you have pointed out is that so far auras have failed to meet even the first step of the sientific method. What you are suggesting is we formulate a hypothois first (understand) then do the testing which is backwards wink



also its not subjective if we hide someone in a box and see if someone can see there aura. thus determing which box there in. even if the aura reading method is not 100% acurate thats ok we can acount for that, what is important is that they can do consistantly better than random chance. also to we can have control groups of people without powers doing the same experiment to see if theres a diffrence. theres plenty of ways we could do it.

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:...although AFAIR Herr Einstein didn't observe any material phenomena when he formulated special relativity, he was trying to resolve a mathematical 'oopsie' that popped out of Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism.



Speaking simplistically, the theory got developed, criticised heavily, and then a whole load of modern experiments came in which overwhelmingly supported SR.



What I'm trying to say is Jeff's step 1 is not necessarily the first step, but any theory has to be backed up by evidence eventually if it's to be believed. That's the essence of the scientific method, but it's also the basis of ANY knowledge that deserves to be called knowledge*. Surely?





*see robnunchucks' sig!


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:*sigh* if only a small portion of the population claim to be able to see auras (ill just qualify and say that i dont make that claim but do acknowledge having some experiences i cant explain) then if you really want to test it you must first observe it, its a subjective phenomena so to understand it you cant rely on the observations of others hence you must experience it to understand it then once you have observed it first hand you can try to apply scientific method.

in the same way that you couldnt diagnose the cause of a nymphomanics behaviour from what they have done that day you need a deeper apprication.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:im not sure what point your makeing yes we need to test the phenomina thats the first step.



i dont see how the phenomina is in any way subjective, people clame to be able to do things normal people can't. So we get two groups one of normal people one of readers. Get them both to do what the readers say they can under scientific conditions that eliminate the posibility of cheating. Then we simply compair the results if the readers do significantly better than the normal people, we have just observed the phenomina step 1 of the scientific proccess has been met.



then we move onto step two and suggest theorys as to why whats happening is happening.



as you can see step one doens't require us to understand a phenomina just observe it. once we know its there and we haven't just imagined it we go onto trying understand it.



also i would like to point out you proberly could diagnose a nymphomaniac from what they did in a day. realisicly you would want to do it over a longer time scale like a month or several months but if they spend most of the time wanking and haveing sex its a fair bet there a nymphomaiac wink of course a diagnoseis is not equivelent to an observations its more like a hypothis.



in the case of a nyphomanica you would have phenominan (constant wanking and f"king)



and a hypothisis there a nyphomanica



as you can see the obseravtion of the phenomina ( they f$k and wank constantly ) doesn't require us to understand why something is happening just that it is.



we dont look at someone decide if there a nyphomanic or not then find out if they wank and F"k all the time thats backwards

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Where auras are concerned, all a scientist has to do is test whether the consequences of the reality of auras are manifested under experimental conditions.



In no way is it necessary for the scientist to have developed an abilty to see them him/herself.



Along the lines of what Jeff asked- can the aura of a human be seen with eyes shut/blindfolded?



If an energy healer says they can, then it's straightforward to test it under experimental conditions.



if the healer says no, then the scientist simply has to come up with another testable consequence of the existence of auras.. and so on, until, they arrive at a consequence that they can agree on.



If it turns out there are no testable consequences of the existence of auras, that differ from the testable consequences of the non-existence of auras, then, again that is a result.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:there is that whole thing that you can prove it is true or prove that it is not true, but not that it is wrong in the experimentation process
there is a fine line i think here


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia

Total posts: 3764
Posted:while I too admire the scientists` amongst us, tenacity in attempting to elicit some tangible, proveable, repeatable evidence of both the existence of auras, and of the ability of others amongst us to `see` them, I`m surprised that until recently in our discussions, we haven`t realised why it is that the scientific/spiritual world are not (yet, at least) able to converge.

those that believe in auras, a spiritual realm, mediums, readings etc... do so on anecdotal evidence alone... they experience things and accept, with a degree of faith, not necessarily because of some esoteric flash of inspiration (`seeing the light` for example), but because, upon investigating these awakening beliefs, they see *repeatable* anecdotal evidence supporting those beliefs.

there is no need for `science` to prove or disprove these things. they just are... it may be that it will never be possible for us to scientifically `prove` the existence of auras and/or our ability to see them. but that doesn`t mean they don`t exist. I, personally, am sceptical of the scientific method for many of the reasons already spelled out. all of what we `know` in science is based on a series of increasingly esoteric, obscure *theories*... which change minute by minute. in fact, science really teaches us more about what we don`t know about the universe around us, than what we do.

finally... some `anecdotal` evidence of something I believe in, that I can`t prove...

I believe that my kids love me. I`m not even sure I can completely and accurately describe and/or define what `love` is.... but I *know* my kids love me and I know I love them and I know it will always be that way.

I don`t need anyone to prove it to me. in fact, it would be counter-productive for anyone to attempt to do so... I think maybe the same could be true for the current topic of discussion?


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

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Bek66


Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place

Total posts: 4728
Posted:Bravo!!! Very well said. hug kiss

"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Scientists( and others) still don't even know how much we "see" with our eyes, vs how much we " see" with our mind... The are some interesting experiments looking at this, and even using sound to let blind people" see" forms. We know very little about the brain, the eyes, their relationship, and what it actually means to "see". Surprisingly, light and retinal response are only a small part of how it all works.

Maybe our understanding of auras; seeing, or otherwise experiencing them, is still too small to allow for design of an appropriate experiment using appropriate tools. For example- one I have used before, sorry- We did not "prove" the existence of bacteria until we developed the right tools to see them with- though the effects of their existence where undeniably there the whole time.

But I am all for trying, if that's what people enjoy doing. Investigation is an engaging process and eventually maybe through trial and error we will have enough data to design a useful study of the subject.

And yes, Pogo, I agree with you, there are all sorts of forms of knowing things. Science is just one of many... useful for some questions and not so much for others.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


Well,
If anyone is willing to perform an open minded exploration of auras I would be willing to help.

Simply list exactly what your claims are and we can devise a few simple experimental tests to ascertain their validity. If that goes well we could build a few more in depth ones. If you wish to remain close minded to alternative possibilities that's your choice. If you wish to simply attack me that's your choice as well. If you want to call me close minded, ask yourself whether you really are open to the other possibilities first.



Are you feeling like you have been confronted because of what you believe Jeff?

Welcome to my world dude.

At no stage have I attacked you personally, I have simply stated that I was not willing to undergo your tests. You have stated that this makes me close-minded

I have explained as to why and then done my best to answer any questions that you have. I have also asked you questions in return which you do not even attempt to answer.

So you think Im close minded and I think youre close minded. Great. Lets move on from that now shall we? Cause it must be getting boring for others reading this thread.
There is one question that I do want an answer to.


 Written by: jeff(fake)

"If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim."




 Written by: Valura

Are you saying YOU would apply for PROFIT from MY gift?




So Jeff is that what you are saying?

If that is the case what are you intentions with these tests? Is it to change your opinion or gain money and reputation from them?


 Written by: robnunchucks


ahh busted well spotted I had hoped not to use hop as I figured you might remember the posts unfortunately I couldn't find your surname anywhere so i had to resort to just the stuff on hop biggrin as it was a very old thread I hoped youd forgotten by now if you've got someones full name its allot easier smile

of course its interesting to note I did learn allot about you in reading all your old threads smile

anyways perhaps youd like to show me how its done properly? Id be very interested to see what you can read from me

also if the navigation test is slightly inappropriate what about the curtain test where you detect people behind a curtain by there aura if of course you were aloud to approach and scan the person first before we put behind the curtain would that work?




First offwhat did you hope to gain from pretending to read me? Just wondering.

Plus your statement of of course its interesting to note I did learn allot about you in reading all your old threads Whets interesting about that? What are you trying to insinuate? Please clarify that.

Im pretty sure the curtain test would work matey. I cant see why I wouldnt be able to feel where the person is. Considering I can feel when spirit enter a room I would be able to do the same thing with a living person. But as I said every medium is different so it may not work with everyone.

 Written by: jeff(fake)


Well,
If anyone is willing to perform an open minded exploration of auras I would be willing to help.
Simply list exactly what your claims are and we can devise a few simple experimental tests to ascertain their validity. If that goes well we could build a few more in depth ones. If you wish to remain close minded to alternative possibilities that's your choice. If you wish to simply attack me that's your choice as well. If you want to call me close minded, ask yourself whether you really are open to the other possibilities first.



Let me know how it goes dude. Id be most interested...

I have noted in a previous post that you were attacked. I dont agree with that and I dont support that.
Jeff you are a human being here for a physical experience as much as the rest of us. Just because you dont agree with me doesnt mean that Im going to attack you. As stated previously, everyone is right at their own level of understanding, so by that token what you have written is your level of understanding therefore that is your truthgreat. I will accept that. And the same would be true for me.

Some of the ways you have put things towards me have been rather rude at times, (which I have pointed out in a previous post which you ignored) but as I said I will still respect you even if you have not done the same to me.

I have dealt this entire thread with having my beliefs and values questioned and slammed and have had tests demanded of me now it seems that when tests are being asked of you you are saying that people are close-minded.
Its different when the shoe is on the other foot.

All scientific methods aside matey cause I havent had the time to read your link (and I do apologise for that I have an 18 month old son and can only post when he is nun eyes) why is it acceptable (acceptable, not plausible) for you to test scientifically the psychic abilities of another, but when it is asked of you to disprove the abilities of someone in a testing situation set out by a psychic you get all up in arms?



 Written by: ado-p


I can completely change reality with the power of my mind. I cant prove it though wink



WOOT DERE IT IS! This is quite a true statement. I agree completely. The mind is the most powerful tool we have.


 Written by: onewheeldave



Let me make this VERY CLEAR, cos I don't want to be falsley accused like Jeff has been-

I have not, and am not, saying that all mediums/energy healers are fake.



Matey what has Jeff been falsely accused of?



 Written by: Valura


Dave do you think that some things said in this thread has turned into a bit of a personal attack on my abilities?



 Written by: Dave


Personally, if we broadly split the ommenters of this thread into two groups- the 'believers' vs. the 'sceptics'; in all honesty, I've felt/seen more insults/attacks from individuals (not you Valura) in the believers camp.




I completely agree with that, I have extended that same sentiment to Jeff also on two previous occasions. I dont think that it is at all constructive and helpful to be straight out rude and disrespectful just because someone doesnt believe what you believe.

 Written by: Dave


My feelings of any kind of 'alternative spirituality' is that the highest benefit is that of making the practitioners better people- more objective, less hostile, more tolerant etc.

That, IMO, on this thread, has been lacking.

If, Jeff had been personally insulting, the appropriate response would not be for your friends/supporters to be insulting back (IMO).




I must say that at no time have I encouraged anyone to do so. I have noted that Jeff has said he has copped some kind of flak outside of this thread for his opinions. That is totally unacceptable from a spiritual point of view yes I may get heated and fired up because Im an extremely passionate person when it comes to this type of thing but I would never suggest or want any type of nastiness, because that is totally against what I believe in. Jeff perhaps you could elaborate on whats happening? Via a pm would be nice so I can understand and make sure its not anything I have done .I would appreciate it.


 Written by: Dave


Additionally, as an energy-healer, and one who obviously has committed a lot of time, thought and effort into her work, I would encourage you to not take suggestions for proof as personal attacks.





I dont think that it was really the request for proof that got my back up mate partly yes I suppose, but mostly the way it was demanded of me (or yelled at me in robs case) I found that to be quite upsetting.

If the subject had have been approached in a more positive way without the air of challenge I would have been more likely to discuss it. Still though I wouldnt have completed the tests, Perhaps youll get someone else who will do that for you.


 Written by: Dave


It's entirely up to you whether you wish to engage with such requests, but , to view them as personal attacks is, IMO, to misunderstand their intent.


To your credit, you have previously admitted that you don't have a good grasp of scientific method.

I'd also suggest that it would be useful for you to really try and get into the head of sceptical positions like Jeff.



I intend to read the method so that I am able to relate to Jeffs understanding. I believe that also shows that I am open to learning and trying to understand where he is coming from.

 Written by: Dave


As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- understanding that people like Jeff are not closed-minded bigots trying to bring down alternative views of reality, is going to be to the benefit of both parties.



As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- hmmm I dont totally agree there He has said some things about my personal subconscious state and my abilities that I find rather rude.;

Jeff has displayed that he believes in the scientific method, I acknowledge that, but at no time has he suggested that anything I have presented to him has any validity or even commented on it. I have made a specific effort to answer his questions and at your suggestion Dave have also made an effort to explain why certain tests will not work.
I even explained the way I personally work and how individual each medium is. I would really appreciate it now if Jeff would be able to perhaps show the same courtesy and answer the questions I have asked of him.

I would also appreciate if Im not to look at Jeff as a close minded bigot as you say, that he also stops insinuating that I am some kind of fake who has doubts on my abilities.
That would be fair. That way both of us get the respect we deserve.

 Written by: Dave

And, to finish, to your credit Valura, despite, IMO, taking some things too personally, you've shown a fair bit of restraint and been honest and objective; more so than some of the people defending/supporting you.



Thanks Dave. I have really done my best to not take it personally, but I know that I havent always been able to do that.

As I have explained earlier I am used to being attacked and belittled because of my beliefs and I am getting tired of being looked down upon.

I do acknowledge that this has helped me grow, but to be very blunt, only since you have helped to defuse the situation.

Perhaps if others could write as objectively as you these misunderstandings wouldnt have happened in the first place.

 Written by: ado-p


Jeff, thats not fair. Not wanting to do things your way is not being closed minded. It might simply mean that people dont want to do things your way. Which is ok really...

Not everyone needs proof the way you do dude... and I dont think its being nice to label us closed minded because we dont submit to your ideas.

I believe in many things. I would be happy to have someone come up with a test that could prove them. But I dont need it. I dont believe any less because those tests havent been done on me and on top of that, I am willing to keep exploring to see how much I can see.

This does not make me closed minded except in the eyes of those who label me so.



*dances and wiggles to the preaching of ado-p*

I hear ya brother!! Damn youre on fire today!


Anyway I hope that I havent pissed anyone off too much in my travels in this thread, I am a passionate person and refuse to apologise for that nor will I justify my beliefs or skills In saying that I really feel that I have helped to extend an olive branch in the aspect of explaining why testing wouldnt work and how difficult it would be to test all mediums equally and fairly. Perhaps you dont reckon so and good-o thats sweet as but one thing I would like is for Jeff to perhaps go back through my posts and make an effort to answer my questions that I have put forward to him thats all. Im doing my best to understand your views, perhaps you could help me out with some answers?
Thanks

V


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted: Written by: Pogo69



we haven`t realised why it is that the scientific/spiritual world are not (yet, at least) able to converge.





Hang on. Where are these two worlds that you talk about? Is there one 'science world' that people who studied maths or biology or astrophysics inhabit, and somehow co-existing with that, maybe a chakra's width away, there's a 'spiritual world' which only the likes of Valura can see fully and, for example, Jo Rhymes occasionally bridges the gap when she does her reiki?



No, I think that's clearly rubbish.



There's ONE world, ONE set of phenomena, and it's the scientific project to observe and understand everything in this universe that yeilds to the process of observation, experiment and logical deduction.







 Written by: Pogo69

upon investigating these awakening beliefs, they see *repeatable* anecdotal evidence supporting those beliefs.





That's exactly my point and, I think, is the point of jeff(fake) and robnunchucks and everyone else who says "if we are to belive it we've got to see unambiguously that it works". That's what science is. It's any organised system of objective knowledge that is based on observations of the real world.







 Written by: Pogo69

there is no need for `science` to prove or disprove these things. they just are...



Well there's no need for anyone to do anything, but if you're going to make some sense out of the universe (not because you have to, not because the universe wants you to, but because it may help you understand and organise your own life) you might as well look at what happens and try to figure out how it works.





 Written by: Pogo69

I, personally, am sceptical of the scientific method for many of the reasons already spelled out.



Then how do you propose to know anything? All the scientific method is about is gathering observable, empirical, mesurable evidence and applying reason to it. No other 'method' of increasing knowledge about the world makes sense. Pogo, what method of understanding the world is free from your scepticism?



 Written by: Pogo69

all of what we `know` in science is based on a series of increasingly esoteric, obscure *theories*... which change minute by minute.



I think this shows that you don't understand what the scientific method is about. Good science is based on observed facts. There have been plenty of esoteric, obscure theories in the past which don't match the data and so they have been thrown away.









 Written by: BansheeCat



The are some interesting experiments looking at this, and even using sound to let blind people" see" forms.



Well then, that's data that should not be ignored! I would be good if you had a handy reference for this so that interested parties can look this up (but I'm not going to stand here with my hands on my hips and say "come on, give me a reference then" as we all have busy lives!)





 Written by: BansheeCat

We know very little about the brain, the eyes, their relationship, and what it actually means to "see". Surprisingly, light and retinal response are only a small part of how it all works.



Again, a reference would be good if you've got one handy. Yes it's true that we know very little about the brain and how sense-data are perceived. But it's an interesting problem which is being investigated and, if the researchers are true to the scientific method, then knowledge about this will only increase with time.







 Written by: BansheeCat

But I am all for trying, if that's what people enjoy doing. Investigation is an engaging process and eventually maybe through trial and error we will have enough data to design a useful study of the subject.



And yes, Pogo, I agree with you, there are all sorts of forms of knowing things. Science is just one of many... useful for some questions and not so much for others.





Science is just one of many ways of knowing things... care to put forward some others? As I've said, science is pretty much the process you describe in the first sentence above.

EDITED_BY: 87wt2gxq7 (1165916920)


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:What some people here are saying comes down to, just because "scientists" (representative for people who can't see/feel/etc auras and other spiritual concepts) don't have a perception of auras doesn't mean they still exist.

Fair enough. So we need to develop better instruments to measure auras. But what if they don't exist? We can try making new machines as much as we want, and they'll still not show up. It would be like trying to design a machine that shows the people following a paranoid, or to show the dirt on the hands of someone with OCD. We know synaesthesia exists, but the only way to "prove" that is to work with the people who have it and are willing to share their experience. And then, it still doesn't work for anyone else.

Auras don't compare to love, just as they don't compare to anger, hate, happiness, any of these. True, we don't understand enough of the brain to explain a lot of things yet. Auras may like synaesthesia or paranoia be something that some people perceive and others cannot - this is without evaluation, I'm not saying synaesthetics need therapy or paranoia is good or anything like that, just that some people's brains work, for whatever reasons, different than others'. Maybe one day, we might be able to measure brain waves in a way that will show the people following paranoids. If we can do that, does that mean they exist?

And even with feelings, there are people who cannot perceive them. Take Aspergers, where people cannot read others' feelings well or at all, or take psychopaths who do not have the concept of "wrong" and "right" the average human has.

Strangely enough, when I encounter a blind person who cannot perceive anything with their eyes, I will try and help them. Not say "you just don't want to see it", or "stop being so closed-minded." I wouldn't wait for them to run into an obstacle and then say "well, that's because you're not in touch with your visuality". Similarly, with a deaf person, I'd try and find a way of talking to their face so they can lip-read or write down things I can't get them to understand. You get the idea.

So, to reverse the argument, why should it be up to people with a scientific mind to prove something they cannot perceive (* see end of this)? Why, if spirituality and auras are important to you, do you not try and do all you can to make others see them, how they can benefit from them, and how beautiful they are? If there was something I knew that I think could help a lot of people, I like to think I'd do my best to go out there and show them.

Fair enough, if people don't want to be "experimented on" - don't. But don't go telling those like me that are willing to believe that things outside our perception MAY exist, that we need to get in touch with our spirituality and all that. If you are right, and you can perceive auras while others can't, you should be seeing yourselves as extremely blessed and possibly try and share it, or at least realise that it's not just down to "wanting to believe".


(* - yes, it IS the job of a scientist to prove things they cannot perceive. But there is a limit to this, for example the "subjects", in this case people who say they are able to see auras, being unwilling to participate. You need a basis for an experiment. To go back to the other example, you can't prove the existence of bacteria in a 100% sterile environment, or the effects of a drug against cancer in a healthy person.)

rant over smile


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Valura




 Written by: Dave


As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- understanding that people like Jeff are not closed-minded bigots trying to bring down alternative views of reality, is going to be to the benefit of both parties.



As far as I can tell, he's been pretty sincere and reasonable- hmmm I don't totally agree there He has said some things about my personal subconscious state and my abilities that I find rather rude.;




Is it the tone of his words, or is it the fact that he doubts your abilities?

Are you OK with the fact that some people will, in the absense of what they consider to be good evidence, doubt that you have the ability to see auras?

(by auras there I mean auras which have objective reality and which manifest knowledge about the health/mental state of the person whose aura it is- no on here doubts that you do actually see something).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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