Forums > Social Discussion > Does anyone actually think the PATRIOT act is at all good for the US?

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KyrianDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England


Posted:
Title says it all basically. I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there with illusions that there's something about this which isn't part of a downward spiral. Particuarly as it seems that it won't ever be expiring....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


Gnarly CraniumSILVER Member
member
186 posts
Location: San Francisco, USA


Posted:
Written by: NYC


I think one of the most underused resources in the planet right now is the American Minority.

59 MILLION people voted against Bush.

One of the largest and most powerful populations of weathy, educated, intelligent, liberal people in the WORLD is right now the Minority in the United States.





And what about all the people who didn't vote? When you consider that, less than a third of the US population actually voted for Bush. MOST people in the country didn't vote to begin with, and I bet the total number of people who disapprove of Bush here is no Minority at all. (and don't trust the polls!) They just need to get up off their asses and do something about it.

Voting is tough. I didn't want to do it, myself. I felt sick to my stomach the entire time I was filling out those forms-- because we don't have a preferred candidate voting system, your vote essentially gets taken away from you. I didn't want to vote for Kerry. I knew if he got elected we'd just get the Diet Coke of Evil, Evil Lite-- but it was the ONLY way to vote 'against' Bush. How screwed up is that?! I think there are a lot of people out there who are feeling that same disgust, and didn't vote at all because of it. (course the whole thing is rigged anyway, but still)







As for the Patriot Act........ frankly, people, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the government planned out the whole stupid 9/11 thing THEMSELVES just to use as a lever to get that goddamn thing into legislation. They're the real terrorists. Even if they didn't organize the attack, even if they didn't know it was coming, they're the ones who are using it every single day, every five minutes, to try to scare the balls and brains off the American public.



I'm curious if you people in other countries know what our media is like here. Do you see it? The way the news is constantly saying things like 'How 9/11 will affect the number of marriages this year', 'How 9/11 will affect children this year', 'How 9/11 will affect small doggies and the size of their poo', 'What would happen if a terrorist attack ocurred in YOUR city? Are you prepared?!!', 'Suspicious object left in busy airport-- turns out it was just a hair dryer somebody dropped, but if it had been a bomb, would you have been prepared?!', 'If a terrorist peeks at you in the bathroom, will you be prepared?!!' and on and on and on. I swear you cannot watch TV for more than five minutes without SOME reminder needling at you.

Even the idea of 'patriotism' is getting warped. The country is slowly getting whipped up into a proper, frightened mob. The US flag is being put on everything from bumper stickers to pins, and EVERYONE is sticking it everywhere. The meaning in all this is clear... and it's not American at all.

"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Sounds like a bad conspiricy theory doesn't it?

Anyone else think it's only a matter of time before a dedicated Anti-Terrorist force is created in America? Anyone played Deus Ex? UNATCO? The mother of all computer games has spoken, and it has become reality... IMO Bombing the Statue of Liberty is all it would take to transform America into a Police State. Read a summary of the Game's plot to find out what's going to happen next...

Gnarly Cranium, I know exactly what you mean. Many people over here voted for Lib Dems (a relatively minor party, third in the running) because they didn't want to vote for either of the two "main" people Blair and Howard (Evil and Diet Evil=ROFLMAO). The result was a slashed majority for Labour and a large rise in the number of seats the Lib Dems have. Maybe next election Labour will finally get kicked out.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


KyrianDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England


Posted:
I read soooo much- I can't take it all in right now. But, one, the canada thing is such a wonderful wonderful idea. I'm actually quite seriously considering moving there.. which would be a long and at most vaguely on topic post- but yeah....

and another point, altho this has been talked to death it seems, attitudes like "would anyone really care if we nuked america" even in jest, is about the kinda thing our military does... look where its gotten us...

sorry, tired. more coherency later.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


rowanleemember
99 posts
Location: west coast


Posted:
welcome, Kyrian...

hug

wherever you go, there you are


mr squirrelmember
37 posts

Posted:
Written by: NYC

I think that one of Europe's bigger mistakes is to ignore the fact that they've got an ally WITHIN this country. It's easier to hate "America", but it's lazy. If Europeans really want to CHANGE the planet (environmentally, politically, socially), these are the people they NEED as allies. We cannot afford to alienate or attack this extremely powerful group.

One of the largest and most powerful populations of weathy, educated, intelligent, liberal people in the WORLD is right now the Minority in the United States.





i dont necessarily disagree with you, and this entire post isnt directed aginat what you said, but...

first of all i would say there is a staggering majority of europeans who do not want to 'change the planet', be that culturally, socially, or envorinmentally. we can start with the 'new euope' as refered to by bush meaning all the new member states from eastern europe. to imagine that euopeans are not conservative/bigoted is an illusion. i have lived in poland for the last year and believe me, there are attitudes here which predate the dawn of time. quote from one of my students 'we have to tollerate the existance of homosexuals, but they should have no rights'. to which i relplied 'didnt hitler say the same thing about the jews?' this sentiment, shared by a massive proportion of the students i have taught here, reflects a fear in the country of anyting laballed 'different'. the ignorance and lack of cross-cultural understanding is mindblowing, and is due to the fact there is no cultural integration of any kind in this country. the environment here is not even a political question. the politicians are ex-socialists and communists.
in france things arent much better. i lived there too. racism is rife; can we forget about the large percentage of voters who supported le pen?!; sarkosy, chiracs main opposition, is back in the cabiet and there is a percentage of the french public who support someone who is viewed as a danger to french civil rights; french television airs the views of all french society and some of the attitudes you can hear are geared up by hatred and discrimination.
sadly social change is not favoured by the majority. many euopeans are sill predjudiced against groups such as the jews, (two of my german friends, both highly educated, intelligent people who are very politically motivated and switched on, shocked my by expressing the neo nazi view point that 'jews are like cockroaches', a view used by hitlers propaganda machine to debase them to the level of insects), and people from different ethnic backgrounds (scraping the barrel there for the appropriate political term, because, after all, if everyone is politically correct, racism doesent exist, right? yah). the consitution of europe has been rejected and decleared dead, and that was the only true hope of uniting a europe which is divided by national interests. the mastricht treaty allowed member states to 'opt out' and since then it has all been going wrong.

second, i am suprised that you observe that the HUGE minority of educated liberal and wealthy americans are also very powerful. i think you are wrong. for the following reasons. power is not determined by wealth, liberal attitudes, intelligence, etc. sure these things help. but real power is determined by information. and the crunch is this: those who provide the information to the vast majority of the US (and the UK)are increasingly extinguishing the 'liberal' viewpoints from their broadcasts. heres one exaple, as reported by FAIR (Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting) on 13th JUly 2004;

"Though Fox News Channel wraps itself in slogans of journalistic
evenhandedness, FAIR's latest study of Fox's Special Report with Brit Hume finds the network's flagship news show still listing sharply right.
In one-on-one interviews, conservatives accounted for 72 percent of ideological guests, and Republicans outnumbered Democrats five to one.
And, according to the study, Special Report rarely features women or non-white guests in these prominent newsmaker interview spots: 83 percent of guests were white males."

mmmm. and that was from 2004. more recently there have been concentrated attacks on the supposed liberal bias of certain tv stations by the CPB. sadly it doesent matter at all if you are powerful unless you have the power to change peoples opinions by using the mass media to spread propaganda/lies/information.

my view is this; those people who are, as you say, educated, intelligent, and wealthy, as all parts of a machine known as capitalism, and regardelss of their job, they are parts in a big system of cogs. they will never have the power to change this system, they only have the option of opting out. if they do, they are replaced by another cog, who is only too eager to find employment. (for instance reporters and tv presenters can find themselves pressuerd by the guy who pays their salary. often its tat same guy who decides where the reproters go and what they say. if the military are involved, its the military who decided what the journalists see. free journalism is, increasinly, a thing only truly available on the internet). mostly however, while the powerful minority suspects, or even knows, there is something wrong, they make their money and they are happy. this is in no way unique to the US. it is a worldwide phenomenon.

you say that anti american sentiment is counter productive. i agree. i believe hate and discriminationof any kind, which both contribute to the spreading of ignorance, are unproductive. (and i agree completely with you comments aimed at sethis, regardless of his apology, because words that are written down are words that are open to interpretation REGARDLESS OF THE CONTEXT. off topic;the loss of oral tradition in society could be blamed as the reason for much of the troubles the world now faces). but i dont agree that attacks on these liberal educated people will lead to their alienation. if they are intelligent then they will realise, as you clearly do, that anti american sentiment is expressed by people who would promote feelings or opinions which value igorance (and emotion) over knowledge. and i think that percentage is small. the problem perhaps is that voice of the small percentage is refleced too strongly in the words we read and the pictures we see. (nevermind that the small percentage also control what we see and what we read), with so many books on our shelves in the UK expressing views which point out america's government are doing things 'wrong', people who see the books, but dont pick those books up and read them begin to form the picture of AMERICA - THE GREAT EVIL.

another example of anti-us feeling inspired by ignorance can be found in this statement;
"However, I would argue that America (as a non-personal whole) is currently doing the most ecological damage to the planet",
also by sethis. i would like to point out that ignorance represents lack of knowledge rather than stupidity, so this is in no way a personal atack on sethis. however.....
america is responsible for polution, yes, jsut as is the UK and europe. eventually our lives are going to depend on natural resources and at that point, when its live or die, expolitation of those rescouces are going to take place, regarless of where they are. but the real culprits at the present time are the third world nations, the developing world, such as india. for instance, fuels that are used in cars in the developed world are thousands of times more efficient than those which used to be used. the level of polution since the bad times of the industrial revolution in england has decreased massively. no more smog in cities. buildings not as black as coal, better, although far from perfect, methiods of reducing industrial pollution.... countries like india are still where the developed countries were 100 years ago. if the west could invest money there, a real differnce would be made, but it wont. instead. it is focusing on methods that, even if they are all implemented effectively, will result in a 2percent drop in co2 levels.

perhaps, if this powerful minority (whcih exists in every country, because voter disaffection of the middle classes who get their pay check and figure what the hells going to change anyway if i do bother to go and vote, is not unique to the US) desired revolution there could be hope for change. but thats what its going to take. no amount of concerned liberals who have wealth intelligence and power is going to change anything. of course the minority is underused, as you put it, because noone wants to use them! and if people are waiting for a movement to come along before they join it, then we have concerned but essentially apathetic people who are being alienated and driven towards conservatism by attacks from ignorant foreigners. and that, for intelligent, powerful, educated people, is worrying.
peace

did i leave the iron on?


PrometheusDiamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia


Posted:
Written by: Sethis

... Am I the only one who wouldn't protest if we nuked America?




Do you realize that by typing and posting that statement, you are, by definition, a terrorist or an enemy of the state, and subject to phone taps, background checks, video and personal surveilance, they can investigate what books you read at the library, what you've bought over the internet, they can investigate and spy on your friends, coworkers and family, They can read your mail (electronic or otherwise), they can impound your computer, your car, and all your other personal property, and hold you in prison without trial and torture you daily, until you die. Oh, they'll also tell the rest of the world that you're unpatriotic and evil. Have a nice day.

The main problem with the PA is that it's definitions of terrorist, or militant, or any of the other proposed antagonists are so vague and arbitrary that they could be applied to anyone. It gives the government supreme power over not just it's ciutizens, but anyone who even looks at this country funny. Even Bush could be considered a terrorist under this act. I wish he would be.

In fact, Bush anounced very recently that over 400 people had been charged and over half of those have already been convicted under the patriot act. Only problem is that in reality, only 30-some of them were actually engaged in 'terrorist related activity.' The other 370-some people were charged with minor crimes like shoplifting, and fishing wihout a license. Blanket laws like this are always a danger because they're just too easy to abuse. If anyone happens to see the 5th Amendment, tell it I said 'Hi.'
Buck Fush! angry

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Written by: mr squirrel


second, i am suprised that you observe that the HUGE minority of educated liberal and wealthy americans are also very powerful. i think you are wrong.




I'm not sure that I agree. When the liberals have gotten off their asses in an organized way you've had results like "the american civil rights movement" and even the Vietnam protests that certainly shortened the length of the war.

Bah... I gotta run so I can't really support my arguement right now. But I do think our current president is "seeing what he can get away with"... he's not just blindly dictating policy. The fact that there's no organized outrage here allows things like the patriot act to stay in existance.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


flidBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Sethis

I was shocked to discover that the average EU home produces about 500 kilograms of waste a year. I was MORE shocked that the average AMERICAN home produces 1.5 METRIC TONNES of waste per year. TRIPLE than in the EU. Why can't anyone see that RESOURCES ARE NOT INFINITE???






It's easy to critisize other countries assumign your own is perfect. First of all, 500 kilos is a lot. Second, that's the average for the EU, and the UK is one of the worst by far for recycling compared to other EU countries. Finally, according to https://www.wasteonline.org.uk/topic.aspx?id=21
the average UK citizen (not household) created 500kg of rubbish in 2002-2003.



Of course, most facts you read on the internet are utter jibberish anyway wink

FearpigSILVER Member
member - tee hee "member"
279 posts
Location: Bethnal Green, London, England (UK)


Posted:
Possibly slightly off topic but Britain has its own Patriot Acts...

e.g. At the moment we have a new legislation which is supposed to give the police powers to curb religious hatred.... like the BNP (British National Party - also known as white supremacists) and the Muslim and Islamic extremists.

Unfortunately they have gone over the top as usual and the legislation covers such things as Monty Pythons - The Life of Brian....!

"Whats wrong with the cat?" - Mrs Schrödinger


mr squirrelmember
37 posts

Posted:
Written by: NYC


and even the Vietnam protests that certainly shortened the length of the war.




this is a common but untrue belief, (allbeit on less publicised than the claim that the media lost the war in vietnam). even after the communists scored what was represented as a 'defeat' for the US in the tet offensive, (notably by walter kroncite, apologies for dodgy spelling), support was still at 70% according to polls carried out at the time. in fact protestors were widely criticised by most of the american public who saw them as being anti patriotic. i believe its all here:
US Propaganda During the Vietnam War, 1965-73: The Limits of Persuasion
~Caroline Page
peace

did i leave the iron on?


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Prometheus thank you for making my point. In fact, I read in a magazine that if you send 2 emails to yourself, one entitled "Picnic on Wednesday" and the other entitled "Bush/Blair Assassination attempt" and you send the "Picnic" one SECOND but it arrives FIRST. This implies that the "Bush/Blair" one makes an unscheduled stop somewhere.

I would try it, but I don't want to be put on their list...

And I don't think my country is perfect, I don't think any is. I think the UK is the worst at recycling in Europe. However IMO there are worse countries than others. I have problems with the way England is run, and as soon as someone starts a thread about "The things wrong with England" then I'll happily give you an earful. But this is about America, so I don't see the need to mention other countries except for comparative purposes.

Oh, and Prometheus, whose definition might that be? Last I checked you could make jokes without being labelled a terrorist...

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Sign seen just before approaching U.S immigration queue in our local airport.....

ALL jokes will be taken seriously !!

That, I assume is what Prometheus was talking about. There is absolutely no room for a sense of humour when it comes to these anti-terror guys.

I'll go on the record saying no, I don't think the Patriot Act is good for the U.S.,,, or Canada for that matter.

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
In fairness to the officials here, that sign is there because of previous incidents where passengers have 'joked' about having a bomb in their luggage, and consequently spent time in custody while it's sorted out.

For some people it's totally natural to joke about such stuff and the sign is simply a warning to not do so- it saves them the inconvenience of being arrested.

I'm not in any way supporting the patriot act here, as I know little about it, and, from the sound of it, it does sound very dodgy.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


_Clare_BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)


Posted:
smile

I think it's time we all started taking responsibility for the state our planet is in.

It's all very well blaming it on other people - but whatever happened to social responsibility?

For example, for 30 years the good people of Northern Ireland have stood by and let a minority bomb, shoot and intimidate the rest of us. We told ourselves 'it's not us, it's just that lot, that minority'. Well, you know what?! We let it happen. We were the majority, we should have stopped it.

By exactly the same token, the Americans who are opposed to Bush should have had him out at the last election. They stood by and essentially watched the Christian fundamentalists take charge, again! They may have been in the minority at the polls - but their cause was stronger - they needed to get people out to vote. They can't fool themselves that 'it wasn't our fault'. Yes. It was. If they had dragged everyone they knew into the voting booth. If they had actively campaigned for months in advance. If they hadn't just sat back and watched it all happen around them.

Take responsibility for your actions - please!


Ahem. Sorrys.
With regards the Patriot Act - the withdrawal of personal liberties, rights and privacies is in no way good for any country - it causes anger and resentment (research internment for evidence of this). America (and the UK) are trying to deal with a consequence... they should be looking to the cause. Get out of Iraq. Stop the persecution of minorities - shrug perhaps it will have more effect than a hundred paper Acts.

Getting to the other side smile


_Clare_BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)


Posted:
PS: Gnarly... yep. They broadcast ABC news for an hour on BBC in the middle of the night here. It's hilarious. I stay up just to laugh at how horrifically awful it is.

The American media is a hugely damaging force. And Mr Squirrel, you're right - Americans MUST use a variety of sources to get any scope of the news at all.

Unfortunately, they don't. It's much easier to believe what you are being told, no matter how unlikely.

BBC and ITN news broadcasts aren't great here either. Channel 4 tends to be quite good, and the BBC website is also quite good - but we all need to take responsibility for the news that we absorb.

Don't expect it to come to you. Go out and find the truth yourselves.

Getting to the other side smile


KyrianDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England


Posted:
Ah, in case you people are interested, lately pbs- our public broadcast system- has been taken over by the "fair and balanced media" to "eradicate its left wing bias" etc etc....

Someone made a very funny speech right after this was announced.. my favourite quote was...

"I don't know why they think we have a liberal bias... we're just going to keep right on representing everyone exactly as they are, be they republicans or enemies of the american way of life"
-the last part is tongue in cheek.

-K

PS- canadians should pm me at some point smile, if you have any intrest in helping me sort out what parts of canada are good for me smile

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


thegreatnonamemember
58 posts
Location: under your bed


Posted:
I really think I should move to canada. This act and many other pointless acts and laws are making things a bit to controlled for me.

Isn't sanity a one trick pony? Rational thought is all you get but when you are crazy the sky is the limit.


newgabeSILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia


Posted:
I live in Australia, a country which in its brief history has been both a set of colonies and post colonial lackey of the Homeland... originally Britain, now the USA. We have our own version of the Patriot Act, and are subjected to official attempts to infiltrate the jargon of the 'anti-terror' paradigm into our daily lives. (Our government sent us fridge magnets in the mail and there are silly signs on bus shelters)
But most of us are too busy watching Big Brother on 'reality' TV to notice galloping totalitarianism and permission-to-torture in 'real' reality....

In some ways my govt reminds me of Italy before WW2, running along sniffing the behind of the Great Emerging Fascist State yapping 'look at us look at us we're great big and scary too! We can send soldiers to Iraq too! We can ditch our civil rights too! We can go back pre Magna Carta cos we're so important we're really scared too!!!
SIgh.

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....


newgabeSILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia


Posted:
I also have lots ot say about perceived/actual anti-Americanism here on HoP and in other parts of the world. But for now I have to earn my living!

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....


ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
offtopic but I dont care.

Written by: NYC


Written by: Sethis


... Am I the only one who wouldn't protest if we nuked America?




This is the type of Anti-American hatred that so often happens on HoP and somehow goes unnoticed by some.

I don't really care. I mean, this is the internet so I expect to find random strangers that wish me dead. But the next time someone like Valura says "What AntiAmerican sentiment?" ... can y'all just point over here? biggrin

Hate my goverment, Hate my country's politics, but at least wait until you meet me to Hate me.





oh my goddess.

Sethis thats such a hypocritical thing to say, when you are so up in arms about the way the american government is acting and I am totally shocked to see that.

I must say you were right in this instance NYC. I accept you all individually for who you are. I have my own views on the government of your country.
I am saddened by that comment. I am honestly shocked cause I have never seen anything like that on this board before. frown frown

and you know what?
If people started slagging my countries (New Zealand and adopted country of Australia) I would fire up mightly and really let rip, so I have respect for the americans who have seen this and have bitten their tounge. hug hug hug

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
See that's the problem with people quoting only part of your post, people only see that part. Thank you NYC. Anyway, Valura, if you actually read my entire post, rather than the piece NYC quoted, you'll find that I'm not aiming at anyone personally, and if you read even further on, then I apologised for making the statement on an internet forum, where so many things can be mis-interpreted. I apologised, removed the comment, and asked anyone I had caused offence to to forgive me.

The next time anyone feels like quoting me, then can they please either use the entire post or none of it, because this is the third time I've had to repeat myself.

And I'll be happy to criticise any country under the sun as soon as someone starts a thread about it, up to and including my own (England). We could start by saying that it's the worst polluter in Europe, and move onto how our holiday makers are now feared throughout Europe as drunken yobs. Please don't mistake this for blind hatred, I just like to analyse what governments are doing wrong today...

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
Written by: Sethis


And I'll be happy to criticise any country under the sun as soon as someone starts a thread about it, up to and including my own (England). We could start by saying that it's the worst polluter in Europe, and move onto how our holiday makers are now feared throughout Europe as drunken yobs. Please don't mistake this for blind hatred, I just like to analyse what governments are doing wrong today...




what does drunken holiday yobbos have to do with the english government? Your logic doesnt make any sense to me what so ever.

I did read all your post. I decided to pick out that particular part because it disgusted me so much and really prooved a point that NYC had made previously.
I feel that it was an awful thing to write and I have lost a lot of respect for you because of it.

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


dR pSYcHoSILVER Member
member
88 posts
Location: Nottingham (UK)


Posted:
Wading in here. Patriot Act = Bad, no questions asked. Anyone disagree I suggest go and read about it on Znet, global security.org,Progressive,Chomsky, etc.,

PS. A goverments actions doesn't necessarily reflect the majority, disagreeing with foreign policies should never resort to racist stereotypes.

taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco taco Damn those MexICan BANdits taco taco taco taco TACOFICATION taco taco taco taco taco taco


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Sunday Times


It shows that more than a third of Britons believe that holidays are purely about hedonism. Of those, 75% said they wanted to drink to excess, 28% wanted a one night stand... Project Holiday details the anti-social and often dangerous behaviour of young people while abroad - including the practice of "swimming while drunk" enjoyed by 24% of the party crowd..."




And our government doesn't seem to care, or even be doing anything about it. Given that we already have one of the worst, if not THE worst problems with binge drinking in our own country, I don't see why we should inflict it on others. Scotland seems to be the only place where there is a co-ordinated "Anti-drinking" awareness program in place. We on the other hand, have adverts that specifically target young people in alcohol commercials.

That's the point about the drinking.

The other point, about my comment. I acknowledged that it was insensitive and a mistake to put it on a forum. I said I was sorry, and I withdrew it. Is there anything else I could do after I made the mistake of posting it? Bearing in mind it wasn't even a serious comment in the first place, and I don't (bizzarely enough) think it would be good to nuke a country with millions of (mostly) harmless people in it. Do I look like a sociopath?

Don't answer that! ubblol

So, again, apologies for a startling lack of judgement. I'm sorry that you've lost respect for me, and please suggest anything I could do to get it back, because funnily enough I didn't join this site to wantonly insult and horrify people.

Sorry for wandering off topic again...

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


_Clare_BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)


Posted:
smile

Getting to the other side smile


KyrianDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England


Posted:
Um.... the government SHOULDN'T care or do anything about a people binge drinking. If people want to binge drink, they should binge drink. A few health warnings on labels and such and the NHS reminding people now and then is enough... ok, I forgot your health system was national. So they should make sure doctors are doing some education and that information on helath risks is readily availble, a nice warning label sounds good (do you have those? I don't know.)

But if people want to do stupid things, they should be allowed to.
1) It reduces the population, in the worst case. As long as they arn't driving like that or setting fire to hotels or whatever.
2) Government shouldn't be limiting activeties that only harm the person doing them. Its a slippery slope (look at the US) and
3) When the government gets involved in limiting things they seem to get worse not better anyway, so.....

I'm not sure if this is on topic at all... but it seems to me like the strange myriad laws the US has about things like drinking are sort of like forerunners for things like the patriot act and similar laws....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Kyrian




But if people want to do stupid things, they should be allowed to.
1) It reduces the population, in the worst case. As long as they arn't driving like that or setting fire to hotels or whatever.



The population reduced though, includes total innocents, because drunks do drive, and they do cause most of the UK friday/saturday night violence that swamps our casuality units.

Written by: Kyrian




2) Government shouldn't be limiting activeties that only harm the person doing them. Its a slippery slope (look at the US) and






Out of control drinking does affect others though, whether it's the cases above, or the children brought up in families where alcoholism is present, or the many, many ither ways in which lives are ruined by the excess drinking of others.

Written by: Kyrian




3) When the government gets involved in limiting things they seem to get worse not better anyway, so.....






Not true- counter examples include seatbelt laws and indeed all laws that limit murder, rape etc etc.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


KyrianDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England


Posted:
Seatbelt laws help in the UK?????!!!! wow.... I mean, they're new here, but they havn't done much yet.

*If it gets too incoherent, jump to the bottom*

Not wearing your seatbelt doesn't directly harm anyone else- You might as well say people arn't allowed to ride horses. Or dirtbikes. Muder and rape do harm other people (the government, in theory, is protecting us from other people) and thus wern't precisly what I was getting at, I didn't make the distinction as clear as I could have however. I'm not sure law actually does cut down on murder, but I wasn't trying to state that there shouldn't be a law against it. Drunk driving is illegal (isn't it?) and the law appears to be failing you/ us there.... but of course rape is a good example in the modern age.

Out of control drinking can affect others. And social services are woefully lacking in helping homes affected by this, and there is of course a lot of other spillover. But drinking isn't alone- cigarrettes, gambling, and extra-marital affairs also have bad effects on numerous people, as well as idiotic games. (Like laying in the middle of the road until cars come and then getting up and running). Many people will find ways to badly affect others lives no matter what... usually not meaning to, but.... I mean, outlawing rocks on school grounds isn't the answer to school violence, either. Very few people are just out of control drinkers with every other aspect of their life nearly perfect.

Drunks shouldn't drive (can you mention wether this is illegal there?) but someone who has drank an "allright" amount might still drive drunk and cause problems. Limiting the driving is they key there- because- prohibition doesn't work. (We tried that) and limiting the amount of alcohol someone drinks is just about impossible to do- besides which I think treating the underlying problem is probably better. Even if people can't get their hands on alcohol, they are often still violent and stupid. And taking something away from everyone because some people can't handle it... why do we still have cars?

Ok, I think I got a little incoherent, because there was a lot there. Lemme try a quick scan summary.

1. Prohibition doesn't work
2. Limiting alcohol is impractical
3. Limiting alcohol may make the problem worse- a la the US
4. Limiting alcohol is unlikely to be fairly enforced
5. There are a lot of underlying problems which alcohol makes worse which should be treated
6. Other things, like driving drunk, addiction, etc, should of course be addressed

owd- Should all of the things which are potentially ruinous be illegal?

*This is not an endordement of alcohol- I think its one of the worst drugs out there. *

Also, admittedly, the (original) patriot act itself is about taking, (in most cases) not limiting- limiting takes other forms, like the no fly list, generally.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


TheBovrilMonkeySILVER Member
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England


Posted:
Written by: Kyrian


*snip*
Not wearing your seatbelt doesn't directly harm anyone else
*snip*




It does if you're sat behind someone while in a crash - if you're not wearing a seatbelt you slam into the seat in front. We had a huge campaign over here about it, apparently the force is like a charging elephant because of the speeds involved.
Also, if they're wearing a seat belt you'd crush them to death as their belt stops them flying forwards.

Actually, one of the proposals to cut down on binge drinking is to have the pubs open 24 hours a day.
The reasoning behind this is that the most binging goes on just before the pubs shut, as people try to get as much in before they have to leave as possible.
If they're not getting kicked out at a set time (last orders is 11pm here), people are more likely to take it easy and not binge so much. Also, there won't be so much of a rush as people all have to leave at once, they'd be a more steady trickle of people leaving, so there'd be less violence and the like outside caused by groups of drunkards.
That's the theory behind it anyway, I'm not sure if it'll work but it sounds good to me so far.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.


PrometheusDiamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia


Posted:
Written by: Kyrian

Not wearing your seatbelt doesn't directly harm anyone else....(the government, in theory, is protecting us from other people)



As much as I hate "Big Mother" government, trying to protect everyone from everything, I have to stand up for seat-belts, only because they are proven to save lives and not just the people wearing them. When you're in an accident, the other car is only the first impact. Often there is a secondary collision, either with another car, a utility pole, embankments, passers-by, etc. The seatbelt keeps you behind the wheel and subsequently still in control. You can brake or turn the wheel to avoid further collisions. So seatbelts do help keep others safe, to a degree.

I often use helmet laws as a comparison. Helmets protect no one but the rider, so I think they ought to be optional. Yes they afford excellent protection, and like seat belts, I wouldn't be on the road without them, but that should be an individual choice.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


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