Forums > Social Discussion > Does anyone actually think the PATRIOT act is at all good for the US?

Login/Join to Participate
Page:
KyrianDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England


Posted:
Title says it all basically. I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there with illusions that there's something about this which isn't part of a downward spiral. Particuarly as it seems that it won't ever be expiring....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
I believe that it will reduce terrorist attacks by 0.00001%. And it will reduce civil rights by about 30%.

Cost>>>benefit

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Being a resident of the UK (aka America's Poodle) can someone briefly explain what the Patriot Act entails? I have a sneaking suspicion that it sounds like it's in violation of international law somehow...

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


mtbeerGOLD Member
ARRRR!
529 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA


Posted:
Ha!, as if the U.S. ever cared about an international law.

The Patriot Act is truly an attack on civil liberties. It completely circumvents privacy and due process all in the name of fear mongering. Some of the provisions of the act will sunset some time this year and many of the more radical ideas are now gaining serious opposition.

Basically it lets the government search and seize people or property without due process of law (trial\jury). They don't have to tell you why they are doing it and they can hold or even torture you indefinitely. Not that the U.S. hasn't done these types of things before the act, this just makes it easier for them.

Another frightening turn the act has taken recently is to be used by law enforcement agencies to battle drugs. That makes every person in the U.S. a target if only indirectly.

I don't see the act as the problem so much as the ignorant people that let censored like this continue.

"My skin is singed but it heals my heart and with glowing pride I'll wear my scars." -Davey Havok


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
the patriot act is designed to insure that all TRUE patriots (ie those that would oppose the current administration on the basis that it is truely unamerican) can do pretty much nothing to protect the integrity of the United States and its constitution.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
... Am I the only one who wouldn't protest if we nuked America? I'm sure that there are plenty of nice Americans, but something HAS to be done about the current goverments policies, on International relations, Global Warming and Environment change and just about everything else. I was shocked to discover that the average EU home produces about 500 kilograms of waste a year. I was MORE shocked that the average AMERICAN home produces 1.5 METRIC TONNES of waste per year. TRIPLE than in the EU. Why can't anyone see that RESOURCES ARE NOT INFINITE???

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


KyrianDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England


Posted:
As opposed to nuking america, start an assaian group and get rid of about the top 50 people in power, if you can figure out who they are. We know it starts with Cheney. But they wouldn't tell us who else belongs to the shadow govt.... no, I'm not making this up. Fall 2001 they told us there was a shadow govt, which, supposedly, is "poised to take over in the event of national crisis"

Moving on... I think Vanize's description is probably the best, but if you want some more concrete information, it basically removes govt oversight with regards to secret subpoenas, wiretapping and some other stuff.... secret subpoenas means if you tell anyone the subpoena exists you get thrown in jail for a year.

Also, several things changed by the patriot act are no longer accesible in their original form, so its hard to tell what the laws used to say.

Some highlights of the ACT:
section 106: allows the president to confiscate pretty much anything he wants and use it anyway he wants as long as he claims that its to fight terrorism. Also states that there is no possibility of judicial review.
section 202: specifically states wiretapping and survellience are appropriate for computer fruad/ abuse cases. (i.e. the RIAA).
section 212: Prevents businesses and libraries from telling us their records were subpoenad (sp). (among other things) Some libraries have destroyed their records.
*you will be fined at least $10,000 for violating this act (primarily for lanlords, company workers who are supposed to hand over records, etc).
sec 412: mandatory detention of terrorist suspects....
sec 427: reinstates blood contamination (which was ruled not to be tha case in the first ten amendments......)

or if you are depressed, bored, or need a poli sci project, read the act at this site or anywhere else you can find the full text.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
*Jaw drops*

This is insane. Isn't the whole point of having the right to bear arms in the US constitution that you can overthrow the government? This effectively blocks that option. Isn't that like one of the founding principles of America?

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
The Patriot Act is completely Un-American and in direct defiance of everything our forefathers stood for, and what our soldiers supposedly fight for (the "American" way of life).

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


KyrianDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England


Posted:
Well as David Craig Simpson pointed out, the founding fathers were liberals. But that doesn't mean anyone in power today likes liberals anymore than anyone in power then did...

P.S. if you follow the link, check out his shirt!

Also: My linking does not mean I nesc. agree with everything DC Simpson says, or am advocating any particular viewpoint other than the one mentioned above, but there's some good stuff on there. And the shirts awesome.

-Kyri

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


JauntyJamesSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA


Posted:
The only one who understands it and thinks it's a good idea is the guy who wrote it. Even the crazy right-wing congressmen balked when they found out what they had voted for.

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
You mean they didn't when they voted? That's screwed up.

Although I'd like a bit of clarification on Pele's statement:

"what our soldiers supposedly fight for (the "American" way of life). "

But how does fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Terrorism in general relate to the protection of the American way of life? I mean, apart from the attacks on the Twin Towers, there haven't been any more strikes vs the US.

And I am aware of the fact that the majority of the military does NOT want to be fighting anywhere at all, it's the politicians who are forcing the issues and giving the orders. One of the problems with giving the leader of the government absolute control over the military methinks.

Oh, and I know I'm about to get shot for this, but why exactly is the Amercan way of life so good? I mean, is this the way of life that creates 3 times as much waste as any other nation? And has a stranglehold on dozens of impoverished countries economies? I appreciate Democracy (which the Patriot Act seems to be reducing) and all that, but England seems to be able to do it without telling the entire world to effectively F*ck off.

Please note that this is not a personal attack on Pele or any other American on this site or elsewhere, I'm perfectly sure you're all wonderfully nice people. I just want to know what people mean when they state "The American Way of Life". What I mean is mentioned above...

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Does anyone actually think the PATRIOT act is at all good for the US?

NO!


Does anyone actually think the PATRIOT act is at all good for the rest of the world?


NO!

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
There is a reason the statement "American way of life" is in quotations...because it is something people define differently but it seems to be thrown out as an excuse all too often.

Though I will say, we have more immagrants every year, legal and illegal, than we can handle because evidentally some people really do think that life is better here.

What I meant is that the soldiers are *supposedly* fighting to "protect" american democracy (right, this has nothing to do with the oil industry rolleyes ) while our government is passing policies which resrict it.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


rowanleemember
99 posts
Location: west coast


Posted:
Horrifiedeek

I offer myself , and all my single Canadian girlfriends up to any single American men who would like to marry, change citizenship, and get the hell out of there.



Canada may not be perfect, but it certainly is a lot better... We are trying to resist the extraordinary pressure and influence the USA places on many aspects of our laws and culture --with varying degrees of success.



We are at least investigating why our government allowed one of our citizens to be sent to Syria for " questionning " by torture, as a "suspected terrorist". From what I have read, no charges were ever laid. No evidence ever produced. He was held and tortured for ten months. He was shipped there by the US , picked up at an airport stopover in the USA, on his way home to Canada. He is a Syrian born Canadian I think( dual citizenship) .



The USA did not intitially consult with Canada before detaining him and sending him to Syrian prison. After our government found out, they waited far to long to try to get him back.Our laws do not allow us to send someone to a country that uses torture. It was only with much public pressure ( and some shadow govt dealing ) that he was eventually returned to his family in Canada.



Trying to find out what actually happened is difficult because so much of it has been deemed "Issues of National Security", and blocked from the public.



I think kidnapping Canadians without charging them and sending them to a place where they will be tortured, is the real issue of national security.



We can not feel secure as a people if we allow this sort of thing to continue.



If we had the Patriot Act we would never find out anything, or even be allowed to try to look at these issues...



Apparently there are hundreds of people being held in the US under so called suspicion of terrorism that have not been charged or tried in public courts, or even in military ones. They have not been able to see family or even lawyers. It has been years now...



They deserve a proper hearing to determine innocence or guilt. The goverment and military can not be trusted in this matter.



Who will set them free?



What a nightmare.



hug

Andrea

wherever you go, there you are


rowanleemember
99 posts
Location: west coast


Posted:
**Oh, some of my girlfriends have offered to marry American women too, since lesbian and gay marriages are legal in Canada...

wherever you go, there you are


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Written by: Sethis


... Am I the only one who wouldn't protest if we nuked America?




This is the type of Anti-American hatred that so often happens on HoP and somehow goes unnoticed by some.

I don't really care. I mean, this is the internet so I expect to find random strangers that wish me dead. But the next time someone like Valura says "What AntiAmerican sentiment?" ... can y'all just point over here? biggrin

Hate my goverment, Hate my country's politics, but at least wait until you meet me to Hate me.

NYC
Who hates the Patriot Act, has protested the Patriot Act, has marched against the Patriot Act, voted against those who support the Patriot Act, and is American.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


rowanleemember
99 posts
Location: west coast


Posted:
Sorry NYC, that must be really annoying and hurtful to deal with. I dont think anyone actually wants to kill you, obviously,-- but we should think about how we can better express our frustration , and do so preferably in a nonviolent way!

I am glad you are working within your country for positive change. I really dislike the USA's policies, foreign and otherwise, but love many of the people- hence the offer of marriage ;-)

I do realize you can't dismiss a whole country of people on the basis of some of their governments choices... It mystifies me sometimes, how your government gets elected ?

grouphug

wherever you go, there you are


IcerSILVER Member
just a shadow of my former self...
205 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand


Posted:
governments get elected b/c alot of ppl arent as clued up and non-paranoid as nyc. alot of americans, (in my experience), believe that bush and his administration are doin the right thing. ofcourse the percentages of ppl who believe that iraq was justified changes alot, there was enough support for it at the time to go ahead. times change and during election years, things change drastically. ppl have to vote and often the choices aint that good. i know here in NZ, we can vote for 5 or 6 different political parties and i dont really want to have to vote for any of them.
i think the first move should be to change some of the misgiuded self-perceptions that some (by no means not all) americans have. dont get me wrong tho, i dont want to get on the anti-american band wagon, there are some great americans. but sadly the rest of the world normally only sees the ignorant and misguided ones...just b/c they in government.

It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.


Fine_Rabid_DogInternet Hate Machine
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...


Posted:
Written by: Sethis


... Am I the only one who wouldn't protest if we nuked America?




angry

Whats the point in even saying that? Its pointless... the amount of pain and suffernig that would cause, plus the crippleing effect it will have on the world economy...

Do you know what happens to a person that is nuked? They are pretty much vapourised.

I am unaware of this PATRIOT thing, but from what I've hearrd here, a lot of people oppose it... you want the govenrment out, not the whole bloody country nuked.

Plus, there a great deal of lovely american HoPpers whom I dont want to see blasted into nothing smile

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Written by: rowanlee


Sorry NYC, that must be really annoying and hurtful to deal with. I dont think anyone actually wants to kill you, obviously,--




See, that's the point though. People obviously DO want to kill me. And if the 9/11 guys had had Sethis' nuclear bomb, rather than 4 planes, they'd have done it.

I'm sorry that this has distracted from a really important conversation about an important American issue.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Sorry, but it grates when people read the start of your post and then ignore the rest of it. NOTE WHAT I SAID AT THE BOTTOM!!!!

"Please note that this is not a personal attack on Pele or any other American on this site or elsewhere, I'm perfectly sure you're all wonderfully nice people."

NYC I've heard you complain before about people twisting your posts and missing important bits out so that you lose the context and meaning. Don't do it to me please.

Yes, my rant was directed at the government NOT any random American who reads my post and is suddenly paranoid that I'm about to kill them. Yes, I know that it was an imprecise way to say it, but hopefully you have the common sense to realise that it WASN'T serious? I hate the very idea of Nukes (look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki) but jeez, stay calm man! WTF happened to having a sense of humour? Or aren't we allowed to exaggerate in these forums?

Oh, and FRD, who cares about the economy if global warming costs us the planet? Cos according to some of America's scientists it isn't even happening. Whatever.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Written by: Sethis


Sorry, but it grates when people read the start of your post and then ignore the rest of it... WTF happened to having a sense of humour? Or aren't we allowed to exaggerate in these forums?




Please choose whether you'd rather have me read your words or simply take them as a joke. You can't have it both ways. Either you want to nuke my country or you don't. And if you don't, then don't suggest it. I did read your entire post. I understood it and I understood the context. Unfortunately, you made an offensive statement in an otherwise logical arguement. You should take responsibility for your offensive statement rather than blaming me.

You simply can't clarify an intolerant statement with an asterix.

For example, I'm POSITIVE the following statement would not be tolerated by anyone on here:

"... Am I the only one who wouldn't protest if we nuked all the Jews? I'm sure that there are plenty of nice Jews, but something HAS to be done..."

I'm curious as to why people find it more tolerable if the hate is directed towards a different group.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
I do sound a bit strong in my above words. I guess that's just how I write.



I'm not actually upset. I just think people don't realize how natural and acceptable hate is when it's directed at America. The same hate would be inappropriate when directed elsewhere.



Especially ironic when it's in contrast to the hate and fear associated with something like the Patriot Act. I find it hypocritical when people often accuse American citizens of things that they themselves are doing...



"Americans all generalize too much!" wink

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
{well, you are from new york city...}

{JOKE JOKE JOKE!!!}

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Ok, *puts hands up* I admit that it was probably not a sensible thing to say, when the inflections and facial expression weren't there. My fault, and I retract the statement as well as apologising to anyone to whom I inadvertently caused offence. I was wrong to say it on a forum, and I admit that.

However, I would argue that America (as a non-personal whole) is currently doing the most ecological damage to the planet, is ignoring International and Human Rights, and is basically telling the whole world where to stick it, because America is the only super-power left and the current administration seems to think that this gives them the right to dictate terms to the entire world. Please note that I accept there is a difference between a government and it's people. (What, you think I agree with anything Tony Blair is doing?)

Unless Jews are REAL good at playing their cards close to their chest, I can't see them doing that much damage...

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
I think one of the most underused resources in the planet right now is the American Minority.



59 MILLION people voted against Bush. That number is larger than the number of people that VOTED in the recent UK election.



According to a recent polls, there are more people in the US who 'disapprove of George Bush' then the number of people who LIVE in the UK.



Obviously this is because the US is such a large country.



But I sometimes think that this HUGE minority (slowly becoming majority until our next terrorist attack) is totally underused.



One of the largest and most powerful populations of weathy, educated, intelligent, liberal people in the WORLD is right now the Minority in the United States.



I think that one of Europe's bigger mistakes is to ignore the fact that they've got an ally WITHIN this country. It's easier to hate "America", but it's lazy. If Europeans really want to CHANGE the planet (environmentally, politically, socially), these are the people they NEED as allies. We cannot afford to alienate or attack this extremely powerful group.



Because every time they get attacked... they get a little more conservative and care a little less.



And THIS is what upsets me about AntiAmerican sentiment. It's totally counter productive.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


ed209Ed: geek, staffer, past participle
122 posts
Location: London, UK


Posted:
Excellent post, NYC. I completely agree. Here's to our undervalued transatlantic liberal cousins.

And in terms of America's many supposed wrongs, let's not forget that the UK has its fair share of problems too - our environmental record, involvement in the Iraq war, fairness of electoral system aren't exactly much to shout about either. And while we have no equivalent Patriot Act, we also have our share of civil rights-infringing policies in the works. For all the Brits who think that in these regards, we are somehow superior to America, I cite Bill Bailey's Part Troll tour, where he described America as the bully of the world, going round to governments saying 'Gi'us your sweets', and Britains as the kid who pops round the bully's leg shaking his fist and going 'Yeah'.

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Written by: NYC


Hate my goverment, Hate my country's politics, but at least wait until you meet me to Hate me.




Done, done, done...and done. wink hug2

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,688 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
offtopic

You're all wrong tongue

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Excellent points, and I'd like to put my hand up and say "I don't think I'm SUPERIOR to America"

I disagree with most of the things that Labour has done as well wink

So how about the American minority all moves to Europe, then we nuke America? (THAT WAS A JOKE GUYS)

Ditto to Durbs, it's shuffling off Patriot Act now... What's NYCs view of it?

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


Page:
HOP Newsletter
Sign up to get the latest on sales, new releases and more...