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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted:so aaron lex and myself went into the realestate agents today to sign our lease for our swanky new apartment and part way through the realestate agent said to lexy

"so which one do you belong to"

footinmouth eek

but heres the jaw dropping bit ..... the realestate agent was a woman.

this was the first time i had come across this sort of attitude/comment i thought stuff like that only happened in movies. do other ppl encounter this sort of attitude or did we just draw one that evolution forgot?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I wouldn't pay it too much attention, she probably didn't mean it in a property kind of way. Though I realise I might be the only one on HoP who thinks like that wink

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men


"so which one do you belong to"



footinmouth eek





footinmouth eek indeed.



something more like "which of these two fine gentlemen owns the deeds to your heart" would have been much more appropriate - its punnier (note, this is not necesarily funnier) and, though it more or less says the same thing, would have caused a lot less offense...



wink





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I think it is funny, personally. But then, I am the type of woman that if I see a girl and two guys I congratulate her wink
Did you answer with the appropriate.."We're here for her actually." ? wink j/k!

Yes, frequently, Ben-ja-min.

If I go to get my car repaired or looked at, I am told to tell/ask my husband (which I don't have btw).
Actually, anything technical is either explained to me in a condescending fashion or bumped over to "tell your hubby".
When I go to the home store to buy lumber or hardware, it is automatically assumed I am purchasing it for a man, and asked what *he* sent me for.

And I have more times than I can count been called, to my face, arm candy, an arm trophy, etc. for whatever man I happen to be with, and this is not always done by men.

My male friend even plays a girl in some online game, and he lets everyone think he's female in rl. He commented the other day about how amazing it is that men who chat with him off game talk differently/treat him different all because they have the perception that he is a girl.

While I am sure she meant it as a joke, chauvenism is alive and well, still.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:I get these comments ALL THE TIME! The ones that get me the most is when people presume I should behave like an 'asian', whatever that means! I'm mixed race, but there's nothing about me and the way I act that marks me out as culturally different from anyone else born in the UK (if anything I spend most of my time trying not to resemble the asian chavs!). Plus I'm not really keen on spicy food.

Quite often it's the asian people themselves who make the comments. I get guys coming up to me asking if I'm a muslim or a hindu, they're always really shocked if I say 'no, I'm not religious', like you cannot be an asian person without a religion!

The other one that made me laugh once was when I was on holiday in Devon with my friend and her family, we were on a 5 mile walk one day and my friend's mum turned round and said to me 'oh, I didn't think people of your colour could cope with long walks in the country'. I forgave her, she now knows that skin colour is not related to capacity for country walks!

But the worst one is when guys talk to you/over you as though you're property. Most people are completely unaware of what they're doing when this happens though, it's not meant to be degrading I think it's just one of those out-dated phrases.

If it's not meant in a harmful way, e.g. not violent or agressive, or implying something is 'wrong' with someone, most prejudices and stereotypes are just a fantastic display of ignorance.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Oooohhhh...my friend reminded me of one.

I have a very lovely, very buxom friend. No matter what she wears it is not something that can be hidden, nor should it. She does not flaunt them in day to day life and in fact, dresses rather conservatively.

She went to an art gallery and even had on a shirt which fully covered her decollatage (sp?) and I kid you not, some woman stood there whispering rude comments about her until the man this woman was with walked up and literally said to my friend "Don't you think that is a little much for an art gallery?"

Excuse me?
Yeah....nothing new.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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.:star:.
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

.:star:.

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1785
Posted:I used to work in a nightclub with my boyfriend and men often said to him



'can't believe you let her work behind a bar especially dressed like that!'

(I used to wear little skirts and big new rock boots)



let!?! what!! ubblol

Working behind a bar also taught me not to take any of these people seriously!




EDITED_BY: .:star:. (1118784101)


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Gav486
SILVER Member since Oct 2004

Gav486

You have 23 seconds to comply!


Total posts: 122
Posted:I'd tend to agree with Birgit and give the benefit of the doubt in this case. Comments like that can quite easily change meaning somewhere between the brain of the one saying it and the brain of the one hearing it.

Then again, I have no problems with the idea that my realtionship to a partner is in some way analogous to a proprietary one (yeah; I'm her's and she's mine, I'd agree.) Of course I'm male, so any historical negative connotations wouldn't immediately come to mind.

What would be interesting to know is whether this estate agent would ever have asked the same question of a lone male in the company of two females.

As for pele, tea fairy and star's stories... I'm amazed at what some men still come away with, and what women still put up with. Hopefully, the fact that these attitudes seem so bizarre and alien to me, and I reckon almost every man I know, means that they're on the way out


You cannot trust this boy! His mind has been corrupted by colours, sounds and shapes.

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Icer
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 205
Posted:dont get me wrong, all this sexism, homophobia, racism, bigotry--the works, its all bad and i hate it. the onyl gray area for me is equality for women, now pls dont get me wrong here either, im all for womans rights and stuff, wot im talkin about is the 'nice' things a man can do, gentlemanly things, for his woman (and dont mean 'his' in a property, ownership sense), i mean, i try and do nice things for the woman in my life, jus little things that she mgiht not always notice like open the door, always walk below her on stairs, always walk on the road side of the footpath, those sort of things, i dont do them b/c i think she cant walk stairs properly or cant keep off the road or isnt strong enough to open a door for herslef, just that i want to do those things inpart for her and in part for me. not sure if thats sexist or not.
realise i got of the topic a lil bit, sorry.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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Gav486
SILVER Member since Oct 2004

Gav486

You have 23 seconds to comply!


Total posts: 122
Posted:Yeah; nothing wrong with a bit of chivalry.

Or is there?

Ladies? Comments please?


You cannot trust this boy! His mind has been corrupted by colours, sounds and shapes.

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Icer
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 205
Posted:yea, thats my question, sorry i went on and on and on...
i know you need to draw the line somewhere but where would woman like the line drawn and does everyone agree on that line?


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I do actually notice those things, and I am grateful for them. Some women are not, I understand.
I don't think those are a reflection on manhood or womanhood at all, they are simply thoughtfulness and that always scores highly in my book. smile
You have a very lucky lady.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX

Total posts: 2014
Posted:Written by: 486

Yeah; nothing wrong with a bit of chivalry.

Or is there?

Ladies? Comments please?



I am perfectly fine with a modest amount of chivalry.

However, if you always rush to get to the door before me, or always insist on paying for each and every date even though you make less money than, then I have a problem with it. Chivalry should be something that feels natural. You shouldn't have to rush to do something for a girl. You also should let her pay for things if she asks/really wants to on occassion as well.


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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:mmmm Swanky new apartment.... ubblove

Was she coming on to you Ben?

It is amazing how unconsciously insulting people can be. She probably thought she was being funny.

Some real estate places are alsotwitchy about the number of residents. Maybe she had visions of 6 of you living there. Not thats its her business who is with who.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:... Can't be asian without religion? I guess its not only the US which has insane people.... altho more of our population is asian, I have to say most of the asians I know are christian or not religious. Not all, but most. People do have weird stereotypes.

For a new angle, maybe she was looking for someone who has a non-monogomous lifestyle or who is "hanging onto" two guys, so she can feel justified and do it herself because thats what she has secretly always wanted! And now she's bitterly dissapointed and more repressed.... /end weird possibility- altho I really wouldn't entirely discount it.

But yeah, she might not have really been thinking, or realized, or even think there is anything wrong with it..... doesn't make it right, but...

And chivalry is wonderful. Brilliantly wonderful, to me. But it has to be a part of you. I have a friend whos amazing and insane... he even opens car doors for girls, and he is so good about it you don't even know whats happening until you go... wait... he's shutting the door... and i didn't open it..... on the other hand I have a friend who really wants to hold doors and such, but just winds up rushing in front of you, and it doesn't.... feel right.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Sakura_Moon


Sakura_Moon

Hop's Kitten Jester.
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Austral...

Total posts: 1803
Posted:I liek chivalry, its fine with me biggrin
My first ninjitsu class.
All males.
The instructor looked at me with the expression "what...are YOU doing here?"
I smirked at him and chose not to tell him id had a few years previous martial arts experience.
He threw me a practise sword and asked me to sparr him.
One minute and a few clean hits later, ive never seen someone so shocked.
This guy was cocky, arrogant and a total a**.
He was apprently very good with a sword, and, i admit he was decent.
But i was better. And i think he learnt a lesosn that day, because every other time when ive gone back, hes been very cautious.


.:Pink Exocutioner:.

I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...

Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.


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Eera


old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay

Total posts: 1107
Posted:Get three idiots in a Ford Falcon, see Neanderthal Man come out...(I have issues).

I did a survey that asked me what the job of the principal income earner in my household was, when the woman saw "engineer" she asked "is that your dad or your partner." Meh!

It can be an advantage being female in a male dominated industry; I've never had a problem having to lump heavy core boxes around because the guys always volunteer to help, nor have I ever been patronised on a minesite; most of the time the guys are just glad not to have to look at some bloke's coal covered mug. I just kind of wish you could find the sort of attitude you get on a minesite on the streets of Sydney (see first comment.)


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Chivalry and political correctness... prepare for a rant!!

My 3 months stay in Canada made me dislike lots of people who considered themselves feminists or wanting equality. The reason was that the same people who wanted equality everywhere got really upset when men didn't hold the doors open for them. You can't get everything!!

Also, feminists in Germany struggle to get a female form of everything (as in heading a letter to teachers in school "Liebe Lehrerinnen und Lehrer" as opposed to using only the old "Lehrer" which would me masculine and therefore sexist), but they also insist of the female form Lehrerinnen put first because you have to be polite to women. In other places, you get people not wanting female and male forms, as in "flight attendant" over stewardess/sterward. It's all so pointless - if a respectless person wants to pinch a stewardess's bottom on a plane it doesn't make a difference if he calls her flight attendant, does it?

Next thing - boys-only groups get frowned upon for example in youth centres whereas girls-only groups are encouraged.

My favourite example is a survey saying that 72 % of women think that they don't advance in their careers because they're discriminated against as women. In the same survey, 50 % of women said they didn't advance in their careers because they were less qualified than the male colleagues who did. Which makes at least 22 % that basically say "we're not qualified, but we can't be bothered to work harder and get extra training, so we blame our lack of success on sexism".

I know you're going to disagree with me there, but I think that people should be a bit more relaxed about pc-ness, the most recent example is that an African market at a zoo in Germany was supposed to be shut down because it was called "African village" and therefore pro-imperialistic. It's so frustrating how people seem to look for things to get annoyed about. rolleyes


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:There was a comedy series on a while back about estate agents, that wasn't too far off the mark. I think it may be more of a reflection on the attitudes of estate agents, at least going by the ones we get here. (been trying to sell our house for 6 months)

You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:ON the subject of p.c in 'The Ancestors Tale' there's a digression (more of a rant really) about some fuss which got kicked up when someone used the word 'niggardly'. The word is derived from 'niggard' which means someone who is stingy with money and carries absolutely no rascist conotations. Of course since it sounds like the rascist term for a black person there was a huge fuss from ignorant people and an innocent man lost his job. Personally I think stuff like this gives a bad name to sensible p.c.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:Please don't get me started on estate agents! offtopic but I can't stand them at the moment, as our landlord is trying to sell our house while we're still in it, so I'm getting about 2 or 3 calls a week asking if the agents can bring people round, they quite often don't bother escorting their clients around so I'm left to deal with them when I get home from work in the evening. Sucks because I like my house and don't really want to move.

Anyway....

A bit of chivalry is fine, it bugs me though when guys go out of their way to behave like that all the time, running to open doors and stuff just 'because i'm the man, it's what men should do'. I think what i'd appreciate much more though is having a boyfriend who helps me with things when I ask them to, without complaining about it. I mean, what's the point of running to open doors and things if you refuse to ever help with the washing up?


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:Okay in a lecture this year (i study nursing) we had a lecture on sexism.
In this lecture they tought us about figure heads in the feminist movement during the 60s and 70s.
I put my hand up and asked "what relivence does the feminist movment have to nursing?"
To which the lecturer said their still is alot of sexism within hospitals because men still hold the power.
She also said women were incapable of sexism, because the definition is that of a power balance tiped in mans favor. I pointed out in nursing 98 persent of nurses are female, their for their are many more female managers (sisters) Their for in that materatrachical enviroment isent sexism possable? The only reply to which was stop disrupting my lecture, and have you ever experenced this sort of sexism in a snide voice. to which i replyed--
"Yes! in my first year two nursing students sitting in front of me one turned to the other and sad men being childrens nurses its a bit wierd isinit, the other replying he would eather have to be gay or a peodphile to want to do it"
Gay i dont mind being labeled but the other i find hurtful

I have worked really hard to achieve the grades i have at the moment as i am not very acidemic i have also had coments like
"your probly doing well because men on the wards get a much easier time"
"your grades are good probly because the lecturer fancys you"
"i dont know if i would trust a man to look after my child" by a nurse
"Why arnt you studying medicine your a bloke arnt you" by a female doctor

Dont know why i felt the need to rant about this i think the point i wanted to make was their is a massive amount of reverse sexism, men with in a work enviroment have to be so carful what they say while women dont seem too. And not even in the work enviroment. I have been called gay because a girl has tried it on and ive said im not intrested.


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Hanz


Hanz

veteran
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia

Total posts: 1328
Posted:Personally I would prefer a man to help me if I ask for help than to open a door for me...

I find it amazing what some guys can be like, as my nick name is Hanz people think I am male, as it is like Hans, so they chat to me like I am a guy, and beacuse of some of my interests they think I am a guy even more... then when I tell them I am a girl they want nothing to do with me...

I was in a chatroom the other day and i was called a typical female... I didnt say anything, but I was a typical female, meaning I want everything changed so it is done my way, dont want to go camping or hiking in Venturers (scouting) or anything like that... that annoyed me, as I love getting dirty out bush.

I am always getting comments from people about "You're female, you're not allowed to like wrestling, BMX" or things like that, because I am female.

It isnt just about not being able to do things because I am female.

My cousin is legally blind, and uses a cane now. The amount of people who deliberatly walk into her path and cut infront of her, and then yell at her for not watching where she is going... for crying out loud... she CANT watch where she is going... if she could she wouldnt have the cane, or be about to get a dog.
And everyone has told her she cant do anything because she is blind, and has started to believe it... it's so incorrect, i would love for her to come to my school and see the amazing people we have here.

Anyway, I am only repeating what other people have said, and I dont have a point, so thats all from me for now


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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:Yep, anti male sexism is definately prevalent in any kind of caring profession, and the gay and pedophile labels are the kind of thing you have to put up with if you're a man who wants to do that kind of job.

I worked in childcare for 6 months, and there was rule that male workers could only have minimal physical contact with the kids. If a child came to me crying for some reason wanting a hug and some comforting I had to turn them away to one of the female workers. That's just cold.

When it comes to looking after, or bringing up children the bias is completely in favour of women. It's a lot easier to be a single mother than a single father, so if a woman wants to have children it's relatively simple, if a man does he either has to maintain a longterm relationship for almost the rest of his life, or win out against huge odds in a custody battle.

There is a group in the UK called Fathers for Justice, that campaigns for equal visiting rights for fathers where relationships have ended, but the support they get is very minimal.

Any traditional opinions of gender steretypes regarding men should really be disregarded especially when at the most basic biological levels what a man 'is' is changing due to environmental factors such as increased oestrogens in drinking water, and other environmental contaminants.

While feminism's campaign for equal rights has given women much more freedom to explore both sides of the gender difference the opposite is true for men. Women can be stern business types, who devote their lives to work, and they can now dress in ways that are much more masculine than was considered normal 100 years ago. If a man wants to express any more than the slightest bit of femininty in the way he dresses (like by wearing colors more noticeable than the standard black, white, blue or brown) he's instantly branded as gay.

</rant>


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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=Flashpoint=
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs...

Total posts: 2719
Posted:Damn right...

I'm for EQUALITY. The day we will have that is when someone says "is it because i'm black" and someone replies, in all honesty "I hadn't noticed"

If someone can do a job better than someone else, then they should get the job. In childcare for example, you are automatically presumed to be a paedophile...

I am considered 25% gay by the girls of my theatre group.

Fathers 4 Justice need all the help they can get. I think throwing balloons filled with purple powder at politicians is very good...

Anyone remember the Two Ronnies series/sketch called "the worm that turned"?

"The Worm That Turned told the story of a Britain where women ruled the country and ran a militaristic police force, and men were made to stay at home, house-keep and wear women's clothing"

Again, I also believe that equality will be achieved when we do not have a "gender" question on application forms, and neither do we have an "ethnicity monitoring" section either...


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: polarity


When it comes to looking after, or bringing up children the bias is completely in favour of women. It's a lot easier to be a single mother than a single father, so if a woman wants to have children it's relatively simple, if a man does he either has to maintain a longterm relationship for almost the rest of his life, or win out against huge odds in a custody battle.





How is being a single mother a lot easier than being a single father? And by "longterm relationship", do you mean as a couple only?



It doesn't have to be like that. Plenty of parents who are no longer couples manage to agree on arrangements concerning their children without taking each other to court.



Written by:


There is a group in the UK called Fathers for Justice, that campaigns for equal visiting rights for fathers where relationships have ended, but the support they get is very minimal.





This is understandable while they continue to:



- suggest that what is in the father's best interests is also automatically in their children's best interests;



- avoid clarifying their policies upon some fathers of their number who aren't given the justice they seek because of the detriment they've already caused to their children's emotional and physical safety.



Ben: an example of estate agent buffoonery awaits you via PM smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Icer
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 205
Posted:obviously, discrimination, either based on gender, ethnicity or wot ever is a touchy subject, most ppl in this thread seem to need to have a rant about something, and im no exception...i wont go on and on tho. ill just say its interesting at my uni, they had a course, you could major in called 'feminist studies', they changed it after all the pc rubbish, now its 'gender studies', same course different name. i just wonder why they dont have an equal course called 'male studies', where ppl could study the affect of gender relations on men. im in New Zealand, and at the moment here, we have a strong tendency to emmasculate men, i think this is a result of feminist movements goin to too far and affecting main stream representations and perceptions. im all for equality, but equality means balance, and i havnt seen many examples of this anywhere in the world.

im 'chivalrous' b/c i want to make my gf feel special, to let her no that i care about her am willing and able to do things for her, that means opening doors, carrying heavy shopping bags AND cooking dinner and doin dishes, its got nothing to do with thinkin that she cant do things cause shes a female.

ok, i said i wasnt goin to rant, and i did...oh well, im a guy, u cant trust anything i say ubbtickled

EDITED_BY: Icer (1118876996)


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet

Total posts: 1228
Posted:Written by:
How is being a single mother a lot easier than being a single father? And by "longterm relationship", do you mean as a couple only?



The actual act of parenting is pretty much equal, it's becoming a single parent, and the attitudes of society that are where the bias is.

A woman can have a one night stand, become pregnant, and the father never has to know about it, so she doesn't have to maintain any kind of relationship.

No man is ever going to have sole custody that easily, without the unfortunate loss of the mother. Even then, the courts can prefer the maternal grandparents over the father, if animosity exists between them, as they're a couple.

Written by:
It doesn't have to be like that. Plenty of parents who are no longer couples manage to agree on arrangements concerning their children without taking each other to court.



But when it does go to court it's biased, and even when it doesn't the man is obliged to take pains to ensure that what remains of the relationship doesn't turn sour, so it doesn't end up in court. (answering your second question).

I only agree what F4J stands for in principle. In practice they're supporting cases that they really shouldn't. Having two parents is not always in the child's best interest, and perhaps they should make themselves better informed of the particulars of a case before they give it their support.

They should be there to support the kind of fathers who'd rather give up all custody rights than put their children through the ordeal of court cases, instead of the kind of fathers who see their children as a way to carry on their bloodline and family name, and have little interest in the well being of their children.


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Written by: polarity


But when it does go to court it's biased, and even when it doesn't the man is obliged to take pains to ensure that what remains of the relationship doesn't turn sour, so it doesn't end up in court. (answering your second question).





Out of interest only, in Australia there are some moves afoot to remove the aspect of the legal system that recognises the bond between a mother and child above the bond between a father and child. The result could be that we see a lot more dual parenting arrangements, and more even handed assessment of what would be right for the child. Alternatively, it could back fire on us completely wink We will just have to see.

On the rest of this debate, I do wonder about its worth. I was talking with a friend this morning about how "othering" (labelling some group as "the others" often in terms of calling that group an opposite) is subjective and can be destructive. At some point in time you will come to realise that the things you use to define "the others" will conflict with your personal interests. And this will lead to disputes. Example: I could say that people with blue eyes are arrogant and only interested in money (othering). I want more money in my life, but the blue-eyed people are competing with me, therefore I must beat them to get more money.

By defining ourselves in terms of difference we inevitably breed conflict. Hence by saying "women are like this" and "men are like that", we inevitably reach the stage where the logical extension of those values or characteristics are going to cause disputes. I would say challenge the assumptions that underpin these ideas. Why do you assume that women get grumpy when you open doors for them? Why do you assume that men don't listen?

In other words, this argument has happened over and over again, and it is based in assumptions about "the other side" which we never explore, question or challenge. All we do is re-hash the same arguments and use them to bludgen "the opposition".


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Icer
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 205
Posted:in regards to 'othering', its a near universal characteristic of the way in which human beings percieve the world. identity and 'self' are based on it, u cant define yourself without vringing into your definition, either explicitly or implicitly, an idea of 'others'. if u say im man, you imply that not everyone is, and it goes for absolutly everything that you can use to define yourself, b/c by using any aspect or characteristic to define yourself, its usefulness as a distinctive characteristic is based on the assumption that not everyone has that feature. it is entirely subjective, i agree, but it is inescapable. some ppl do explore the other side too, im an anthropologist (look it up if u not sure wot it is) and we try do it all the time. we strive for objectiveness knowing we will never get it. we always see the world thru our own eyes, but as long we try and recognise how our own eyes shape what we see, that is the best we can ever hope to achieve. ok, i always seem to get a lil off the topic, maybe i should just get back to my writing my seminar, which btw is on the creation of identity, which is why i have all this rubbish floatig round in my head screaming to get. so sorry bout the rambling

It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Ummmm, anthropologist you say? Is that some kind of fancy-pants scientist? wink



Currently studying some things in the area of neuropsychology in order to better understand learning and principles of adult education which also involves an understanding of the creation of identity, especially as it pertains to community identity (post grad study can be a pain and a pleasure). So do my credentials stack up?



I liked what you said about "recognising how our own eyes shape what we see", that was elegantly phrased. I also think that is the crux of what I am arguing here. What is it about your own eyes shape that influences what you are seeing right now? What is it about your base values/assumptions that make you see certain things, and not others?



It is a very easy thing to get trapped into a debate about toilet seat up vs toilet seat down (as someone who once got blasted by charles for the exact same discussion wink I ain't goin' near that one!!!). You will of course get, as expected, responses on both sides. You may even be able to draw a statistic from it (35% of those surveyed just don't care). However it is a meaningless number that does not add to the experience of being human. It is far harder, and yet far more productive to reflect upon the concept of self and how it influences the concept of other.



So, in order to get the ball rolling, I will do what I expect others to be able to do and reflect on why I construct reality in the way that I do. I was brought up by my mum (who always worked) and my dad to believe that women and men were equal.



From an early age I had dealings with men who also believed this, and as such I always saw it as possible. These men were polite and civil to me without apparent ulterior motive. From this I came to value politeness in the form of "door opening" etc etc. I practice it towards others, and enjoy it when it is practiced towards me. I came to the belief that the offense is not in the action but in the motivation. For example, a person can open a door for you in a lecherous or overbearing way. Or simply out of politeness. It is the motivation behind it that matters.



As I got older I had situations where assumptions were made about me. The only reason I could find for this was my gender. For example, at work a manager had a major problem with me. It could have been a personality clash, however the manager had a pattern of personality clashes with women around the office. From this experience I came to believe that there is prejudice against women in the world, and that it is often so far embedded in culture that it is difficult to see or prove.



I also have a lot of male friends who I love dearly, who experience the other side of this coin called prejudice. Their decisions not to pursue "career" or other stereotypical male pursuits are often the cause of discrimination in their lives. They also experience assumptions made about them based on their gender. From this I drew the believe that men experience prejudice too, which is often just as, if not more unseen.



I observed around me the games that people play based on gender, radio shows that run "battle of the sexes" games, or magazines that run articles that say "catch your man" or "get what you want from your woman". From this I came to believe that any discussion that is about pitting one group against the other simply perpetuates the stereotypes and therefore prejudice against both men and women.



So the toilet seat survey doesn't mean that much, kiddo wink

EDITED_BY: Rozi (1118898218)


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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