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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:so aaron lex and myself went into the realestate agents today to sign our lease for our swanky new apartment and part way through the realestate agent said to lexy

"so which one do you belong to"

footinmouth eek

but heres the jaw dropping bit ..... the realestate agent was a woman.

this was the first time i had come across this sort of attitude/comment i thought stuff like that only happened in movies. do other ppl encounter this sort of attitude or did we just draw one that evolution forgot?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:
Ben, Im not sure there ever was a
matriarchal society,;mores the pity. I suspect your real estate agent was an idiot, or she was sussing you out.

Rozi, I think people should be judged on merit, not quotas. Systems that score key selection criteria and interview questions work well, especially when referees are also contacted.

What really pisses me off as far as male arrogance goes, is the way some men always think they have a god given right to drive, even when its not their car. Like I cringe when I see wives, say picking their husbands up from work, moving over into the passenger seat.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Sethis

First, MiG's statement about people wanting families earlier coincides neatly with the fact that Britain has the highest rate of teen pregnancies in Europe. Because these teenagers are still in school



Hold your horses! Education is compulsory until the age of 16. When that education is completed, people of that age and of the remaining ages 17, 18 and 19, can choose to leave education/work full time/leave home/have consensual sex, all perfectly legally.

I do agree with the restrictions you detail regarding those under 16, such as full time employment, as compulsory full time education tends to be legally incompatible with that, let alone practically wink but it's important to be clear who you're talking about.

Written by:
Finally, it's disturbing because you're parents are your role models. 1/4 children being born at the moment do not have fathers.



Well, unless they're all being eaten by the mothers after mating, spider style wink I'd assume you mean they don't have "active" or "present" fathers. So, how many of each, or both, does this quarter account for?

Written by:
This is bad enough without the added fact that your mother is still young enough to be going to parties and getting drunk while you're in primary school.



So, applying that rule to teenage pregnancy and primary school age, the mother young enough to be going to parties and getting drunk while their children are in primary school is anywhere from about 17 to 30 years old.

Getting too drunk, too frequently, to give your child your best is obviously never going to be a good thing, but age doesn't come into that - since when was 31 too old to have an alcohol problem?

Even if there is such a thing as being young enough, it doesn't mean a mother is going to take advantage of it. Plenty of single mother use the precious time they have without their children to drink responsibly.

And according to you, I've got the best part of at least 6 years left to do so biggrin

Written by:
Bearing in mind that my parents divorced when I was in Primary school, I have a perspective on the situation, but I will be the first to admit that I am an unusual case because I have regular visits to my Dad (I'm going to be staying with him before and after Falmouth 4) and I love both of my parents equally much. I admit this is unusual for someone in a single parent family.



There's nothing to admit - it's not unusual for children to have regular visits to their fathers or for them to love thier parents equally smile

Written by:
Also, the fact that most of the parents are Chavs and smoke and Drink WHILE PREGNANT makes me pity the children.



Well I'd be interested to hear whether these are established statistics or just what you've witnessed. "Chav" is also not only a broad definition but a whole sterotype in itself...

I've lots more to say on this, as you can probably imagine, but that'll do for now smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Sure, thanks for the comments.

So, your point about who I mean. I would say that my point holds because even if you are no longer in compulsory education (which many teenage mothers are) and you have just passed your GCSE's, what kind of a pay scale will you be on if those are all the qualifications you have? Assuming you don't have a GNVQ or other vocational course, then you'll be doing grunt work for at least the next 5 yrs. Estimate under 14,000 p.a. Not really enough to support yourself (bearing in mind you're 16-21) AND a child. Especially if there's problems with the father taking responsibility.

So I'd say anyone under 18 is an inadequate parent for a child, if only because of the economic restrictions on them. They might love the child to bits, but simply not have the money.

The 1/4 figure refers to children who have no relations with their father because he left when they were between 0-3 yrs old. The mother and children have no contact with him after this period.

I would say that the copious consumption of alcohol hits it's peak between 14-21 so if you are a teenage mother you could be anywhere between 18 and 25 when the kids hit primary school, putting you smack in the middle of the "phase" where people still think drinking until you black out is cool. I agree that drinking problems are not restricted to young parents, but that is the group that is most at risk. I also agree that there are plenty of young people (like me) who don't drink in excess, never have and never will.

Well it might just be a by-product of where I live, but I'm the only person I know who's parents are divorced, but still retains friendly contact with both parents. Most often there is no contact, or it takes the form of abuse being shouted down the phone...

Just what I've witnessed, if anyone has more information on statistics, I'll be happy to stand corrected. What I have seen is that approx. 90% of people under the age of 25 who I have witnessed pushing a buggy (or a stroller, whatever you call it) either were smoking at the time, or had a pack of fags in pockets or bags. In fact, its now a hobby of mine to see if I can spot fags on any parent with a baby that I see.

Thanks again for the questions and points raised, and for being civil about it. peace


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Sorry I'm late for this reply...

I've read that some place (can't remember where, I think it was a uni) wants to introduce a system where the personnel people can only see the part of the cv that doesn't contain any names (i.e. hints for nationality/race), sex or pictures, so that at least the initial candidates for interviews are picked on a less biased basis. They've run some tests and it seems to improve the mix of people... might be a nice first step?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:I would like to see it tried out, and people comment back on the advantages and disadvantages of it.

I suspect that it would produce the desired result of having a better mix of people. And that then the next challenge would be to ensure they were accepted into the organisation and given a good chance.

It could be a start!!


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:Okay this is from way back at the beginning of the thread, but I just came along and it's bugging me, so...

Written by: Icer

dont get me wrong, all this sexism, homophobia, racism, bigotry--the works, its all bad and i hate it. the onyl gray area for me is equality for women, now pls dont get me wrong here either, im all for womans rights and stuff, wot im talkin about is the 'nice' things a man can do, gentlemanly things



Scuse me but dood-- what the hell has chivalry got to do with EQUALITY? This is exactly the kind of comment that got this thread started to begin with, something that wasn't necessarily intended to be insulting but in reality is casually, unconsciously offensive. You qualify it in the next sentence, but still, there it is.

In general, women and men will never be treated exactly the same. Even if you could make every single person on the planet totally bi, the genders would still be different. 'Equality' between people is not 'sameness'.


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:That's actually a very interesting comment: "Equality between people is not sameness". How, then, do you propose that everyone is equal if they are not all the same?

I agree with you btw, and it's because the education authority didn't have a handle on this that we get things like the abolishment of Grammar Schools. We're not all the same thanks, if I want that I'll start my very own Borg Collective.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:'Equality' is based on a notion of value. A dollar bill is equal to four quarters, but not the same. You keep them in different pockets in your wallet, and you probably always will. Each is better for different situations, but they're equal. Just like men and women-- hell, all people-- are worth as much as each other, but always different from each other.

"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:So (and I know this isn't what you're suggesting, but it has to be pointed out) is a mentally or physically handicapped person have less value? How do you define Value when you are applying it to Human Beings? And is an Immoral person equal to a moral one? If that is the case, why be Moral?

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:it depends on how you look at it...

If you run a company, yes, a disabled person will probably be worth less to you than a healthy one, but if you intend to harm them, you'll find that the state considers them worth protecting as much or even more as a "normal" person. So value is defined from the point of view.

Or by laws to help us cause we won't get the values right if we're left all alone with them wink


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:"Many of the truths we cling to in life depend greatly upon our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi (Alec Guinness)

A more subtle and accurate statement never existed.

But, in the long term, won't people with certain physical problems will simply erode the gene pool? I mean, if a person was sterile, why should they reproduce if nature is saying "Don't Have kids" to them? And why should disabled people be valued *above* healthy people? What additional value (apart from rarity) do they have above people with a lesser degree of physical imperfection?

Please can everyone be aware that this is an entirely hypothetical viewpoint? I do not intend to cause offence, and these are not my personal opinions, I am simply laying out arguments for the debate in hand. I am not the next re-incarnation of Hitler, and I do NOT have problems with anyone who has illnesses or disabilities or anything else mentioned here. So please don't flame me for presenting a hypothetical argument. Thank You! peace


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Ok, it is very tempting to begin picking at this line of argument in little tiny bits. To say things like "so you are equating physical ability with value?". But I know that is only looking at part of what is being argued.

What we are arguing about is equality, and what it means. Under the definition that a few people are using in this thread, the phrase "equal but different" is a useful tautology, because they are defining equality as encompassing difference. Others here are defining equal as having exactly the same characteristics, hence for them the phrase "equal but different" is a contradiction in terms.

IMO, I define "equal" as a term encompassing difference (the former definition).

By the way, have you considered how we encourage the genders towards difference from an early age? Often without thinking about it, we say of a baby "its a girl/boy!!!". Immediately that little baby is burdened with all the expected characteristics of their gender. I have found that it is less so in Australia, but often the expectation is that girls will be less physically active, they will be praised for being "nice and quiet". As such, women are praised into being less active than men, and therefore develop less muscle strength and physical ability.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:The notion of personal equality basically boils down to the notion that everyone is worth the same consideration. They can't do the same things, some contribute more to society than others, but they're all worth the same consideration, as sentient beings. I guess one way to put it, is that everyone is equal in the eyes of God, or whatever ultimate objective observer you want to stick out there.

Pretty much everybody is subjective, though... so just how to weigh this stuff will be debated forever.


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:The point is, Sethis, if you want to be consequent about the value of people you will end up in fascism again. If you only want to be hypothetical though, yes, sick people will weaken the gene pool, as will stupid people (unless they're incredibly useful through strength, but honestly nowadays we have machines for that).

When I said that disabled people were valued above healthy people in certain things then that's just a matter of protection, as there is for kids, too. Of course, hypothetically you can go for "survival of the fittest" and say that if children can't cope with being exploited for work or raped or nearly starving to death then it might be better to remove them from the gene pool early.

I just doubt the value of the hypothetical discussion about this wink except the fun of discussing things of course


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Well I enjoy a discussion of anything anyone cares to suggest, and I think that to have been properly discussed all viewpoints need to be examined. This includes views that some people may find slightly offensive because if you just say "No, I don't like it, it disgusts me" then you aren't actually paying attention to what it's saying and you're starting the foundation of the belief that your view is superior to someone elses. As we know, people have DIFFERENT viewpoints, but that doesn't mean that anyone is right or wrong. Just different. Although I think that intolerance is wrong in all of its myriad forms, that's just my opinion.

I don't think (well I hope not) that there are too many people in the world who believe that because you are disabled you have inherently less value. Look at Stephen Hawkings (And I know that there are lots of other people all worthy of recognition, I just picked his name out of the sky).

And Rozi raises a good point, I remember seeing at a beach that a father would lift his daughter above the waves before they hit her, while he put his hand on the shoulder of his son to brace him for the impact. A very subtle lesson in how we teach the different genders to deal with problems.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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ed209
ed209

Ed: geek, staffer, past participle
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 13th May 2005
Total posts: 122
Posted:Written by: Sethis

Well wouldn't it be simple enough to apply for all jobs postally? And then the company simply selects the applicant with the most relavent qualifications?

I agree that if the job involves talking to customers/representatives etc then the person should be interviewed, but only AFTER they have been confirmed as a possible candidate, and they should have the right to appeal if someone is chosen over them who is less qualified.

I agree that teaching in this area is woefully inadequate, as are the laws.

The problem with "overselect[ing] underrepresented groups in the hope that the existing unequal status quo is upset" is that it simply causes further resentment against the minority (they're stealing our jobs! etc etc) How would you feel if you applied for a job and *this is NOT MY VIEW* it got stolen by an immigrant from another country, just cos he/she fulfilled a % point on the roster?




That's absolutely right. And it causes resentment because it reeks of hypocrisy. Plus I think any self-respecting minority person (minority by gender, ethnicity, disability etc), and I speak from experience here, would be incredibly offended to learn that they got a position simply because they were a minority. Someone once told me that I probably got my university place because of this and I damned near destroyed him.

The problem with the postal application idea, is that almost all jobs should interview people for the position because you can find out much more about a candidate from an interview than from a postal application. And that in practice, appealing against an interview decision is very difficult because it can be very hard to prove level of qualification.


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Valid points Ed, but I can't think of another way of practically eliminating bias from the selection process. And you're right, the selection of a person on the basis of their belonging to a minority not only offends the people who've had their job "Stolen" but also the person who gets the Job! I can imagine how anyone would feel about being selected to fill a percentage rather than on their own merits.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Page: 123

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