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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Ok so I just read an artical on mnsbc that stated some scientists think that we can "remake" Mars. Now they ae saying we can use the green house affect that is killing our planet to revive Mars...........I don't want to get into weather the method is wrong or right (but I'm sure someone will wink ) My question is do you think it is right to try and make Mars livable? I know some say it was once a living planet and so on. Personaly I'm still up in the air about it.........so yes or no and a supporting statement please.........

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:I think we should send Vanize there and find out smile

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"

Total posts: 6207
Posted:on teh statment of it once being a living planet

its rather comeling

there are magnetic traces still in rocks and surface layers taht have been observed by orbiting ships that can only be reated by the presence of an atmosphere, and more importantly one like out own


also the valleys and formations tah make it seem to have once had oceans rivers and lakes are compelling that there once was an enhabitable planet, wether there was life or not is a difernet conversation

i think one day mars will be collonised by human, if we had kept up with the same vigure that the space programme in the 50's, we would have now visited pluto several times with human life, walked on mars, and knwo a lot more about out solar system

but we knwo more about the surface of teh moon than about the deepest ocean floors,

so maybe we should look to our inner space, not outer space


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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:First, we'd have to take the politicians out of the space program and put the scientists back in charge.

We should think about colonization, if for no other reason, to have an escape route when we finish destroying this planet.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"

Total posts: 6207
Posted:well i for one would not wnat to go and exist on a planet where i could not wlka outside.....

colonisaion is perfect, until you reliase its a limited resource, only teraforming the whole planet would make it a vaible resource

and then it would prob take a couple of hundered years to become stable with a sturdy eco-system


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And all that's jazz
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

member
Location: just behind your left shoulder

Total posts: 92
Posted:The thing about colonising Mars is, is there any life left to object? There certainly is ample evidence of there once being conditions predisposing it towards the possibility of life (as everyone has said, evidence of water, atmosphere etc.). Furthermore, there have been various rumours here and there about people finding fossilised amino acids and even (thus far unconfirmed) primitive thermophilic prokaryotes. However by all accounts Mars does not now have conditions particularly advantageous for life - life could theoretically be extant, but the chances are astronomical. Places more likely to hold life within the solar system are Saturn's moon Titan (with a good radiation-blocking atmosphere and what could be liquid water - check out http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.cfm
for info on the Cassini Probe that recently landed there).

Anyway, I'm tired and I'm getting off topic. What I'm trying to argue here is that the chances that there is any life at all on Mars, let alone life enough to object to us terraforming said planet (I can just see an aggravated agglomeration of Escherichia Coli campaigning for their own state independent of their ruling humans). Furthermore, once humans inevitably destroy the earth in a game of nuclear one-up-man-ship which perhaps got a touch out of hand, Mars will be by far the most feasible option for human colonisation of other planets.

(Unless of course Slartibartfast can rig us up one for a cheap price, with added Vogon insurance)

Essentially, from a logical (synomyns: secularist, materialist, scientific, Machiavellian depending on your ethical persuasion) point of view, population of Mars is an ideal option for our rather rapacious species. The issue essentially boils down to whether we believe we have the ethical right to do this to an unspoilt planet. And we can hardly see property developers turning down that goldmine, can we? Think of the ads:

Prime real estate in southern Olympus Mons, great views. Easy walking distance from an interesting pile of rocks. Great renovation and building opportunity"

And hey, if worst comes to worst, we can always set aside a small and fragmented chunk of the planet as a nature reserve.


C8H18 + 12.5O2 ---------> 8CO2 + 9H2O + you know what

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"

Total posts: 6207
Posted:interesting point about titan

the only problem is that we will never know, there is no know way that we have of tunneling throught the large ice rock surface to drop a prode into the cold water below

if we use an oil drill, any oil, even a drop that hits teh water cuold destroy the ecosystem,and thus kill all teh possible life, a heat drill would not a viable due to power and size restrictions.....


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Wonder Monkey
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex

Total posts: 121
Posted:I was about to mention terraforming! Beat me to it! smile

They reckon by blwoing the ice caps that atmosphere ect can be created - hopefully our planet has more than a few hundred years in it (wether we do or not is another matter!)

I see no moral reason not to try and colonize mars, but, considering the above point, would have to question if its worthwhiel unless, along with the new world, you have a new world order free from the mess we have made of this one.

I think the martians are still alive underground tho...waiting for the right moment to unleash their intergalactic whoopee cushion.

Or something.


My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"

Total posts: 6207
Posted:now there is another idea that we have had

let go to a new planet and blow it up!!!!!!

the theroy behind teh exploding the caps is one of a semi good idea, but when you blow them up you lose a huge amount of resources on teh planets surface

and the materials used to blow the...nukes, thus iradiating most of the planet
!


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Wonder Monkey
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Wonder Monkey

Certainly confused
Location: Chelmsford, Essex

Total posts: 121
Posted:Agreed, it may not be too ecologically sound, but it could be our only defense against the whoopee cushion.

My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce

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Havokist
BRONZE Member since Dec 2004

Havokist


Location: Manchester

Total posts: 2530
Posted:i think that we could go live on mars but for a few reasons, which could probably be dealt with. some scientists say that if certain bacteria and other microscopic organisms were introduced to mars, then they could create a breathable atmosphere, because apparantly mars's current atmosphere is similar to how earth's was a few million years ago. so instead of just a few thousand bacteria doing the work, if you introduced millions upon millions then the entire process would be sped up dramatically.

the only problem is the climate, as mars is quite cold compared to how earth is and was, so any living things introduced may die, but this is where a theory put forward by a scientist, cant remember his name, that if you had a series of "space-probe-like-buggies" that had the ideal enviroment for the bacteria, and that mars's atmosphere would be pumped into the buggie type thing, the bacteria respire, and give off less harmful gases, and those gases are pumped out, slowly giving mars an atmosphere similar to ours, in which the greenhouse gases would be present, and therefore slowly heat up mars, but in the long run will also kill it, and the period of time in which sustainable life could live on mars could also be much shorter for various reasons i cant be bothered going into at the moment.


We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams;
We are the movers and shakers of the world for ever, it seems.

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The Real Fryed Fish


God's illgitament son
Location: state of confusion

Total posts: 1489
Posted:one thing that i read that may be a problem IF they decide to this is that there are other micro organisms still "frozen" from Mars' past, what kind of sickness might the forst inhabitants come across, what kind of animal might those micro organisms turn into? that could be a big problem

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

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Havokist
BRONZE Member since Dec 2004

Havokist


Location: Manchester

Total posts: 2530
Posted:thats where scientists being scientists come in. quite a few of them will do almost anything to be in the history books, plus if you were the first person to "colonise" or create a living enviroment on mars, then you could go down as a legend in the history books.

but then again, if all life on our planet got destroyed, then the only people that may stand out to any inteligent life form that may stumble across earth, were the one's that made the bigger mistakes, like hitler, stalin, and bush


We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams;
We are the movers and shakers of the world for ever, it seems.

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PyroWill
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines

Total posts: 4437
Posted:i still think martians are there, underground, or they just hide when our sateltites come, bit like osama ubblol

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:2 things,

1: We have little or no idea how the weather systems of our own planet work and affect climate, so what makes us think we can control climate on another planet.

2: We are completely naive to think there is no life on mars, imo the universe is teaming with life. We just have a very narrow perception of what 'life' is. For example, our planet is a form of life, mars is a form of life, our solar system is a form of life and so on. Even if there was no bacteria on mars 100 years ago (which i find impossible to believe since bacteria on earth exist from the frozen ice caps all the way to underwater volcanoes) then there is bacteria there now because it hitched a lift on the probe we just sent.

Personally i feel that if mother earth wants us exstinct, let it be, after all we do kinda deserve it. It's just the survival of the fitest, and the human race is a bunch of suicidal dumb f***ks.

So no, i don't think earth man should venture to mars. I think earth man should concentrate on making earth an inhabitable place to live.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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And all that's jazz
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

member
Location: just behind your left shoulder

Total posts: 92
Posted:The idea of creating an atmosphere on Mars using bacteria is certainly a brilliant (and perhaps, even potentially possible) one. Shows what 50 years of microscopy can do for the human race, I guess. The bacteria that would be used would have to be something like the stromatolites of Western Australia - early prokaryotic bacteria of the kingdom Archaea which digest sulfates (correct me if I'm wrong) to produce oxygen. The evolution of these organisms (anywhere from 3.5-2 billion years ago), incidentally, is believed to be the source of the oxygen in the Earth's own atmosphere.

However, a few minscule minor little tautological problems:

1) Food: To fill the atmosphere of an entire planet with oxygen, you'll need a bit of sulfate. Come to that, quite a bit of sulfate. The only way to really get that kind of quantity (we're talking the millions of tonnes here) is to extract it from Mars' crust. Using oceans. And rain. Which rely on an atmosphere.

2) Timespan: When bacteria produce oxygen, they don't exactly churn the stuff out. They tend to work a bit more like Vermeer - agonisingly slowly, expensively and with unnecessarily large amounts of Tyrian Purple (hmm . . . ). The sheer timescale taken to create an entire breathable atmosphere will be something in the hundreds of millions of years. And frankly, I can't see Earth lasting that long, especially not if all its special stromatolites are callously dispossessed and moved to more "adventurous jobs for the self-motivated and anaerobic stromatolite: become an Oxygen production facilitation engineer and work in the latest growth industry!".

3) Other assorted scientific issues: Having a pure oxygen environment is really not a particularly brilliant idea (Earth's atmosphere is nearly 79% Nitrogen); possible reaction of oxygen with iron, zinc etc. in Mars' crust; problems of gravity pull and retaining produced atmosphere; various others.



So, though the idea of creating a breathable atmosphere with bacterial respiration is an undeniably brilliant one (and could still have its place in assorted terraforming activities from producing oxygen to producing oxygen), there's a few problems that might need resolution first. Production of an atmosphere suitably comprised of other elements (nitrogen, argon, carbon dioxide, ozone, etc.) and a variety of other problems might be solved first.

One problem's easily solved though - to heat up the planet, all we need to do is hire the anti-Kyoto Protocol Australian Government and give them exclusive rights to industry production over there. Global warming will prep the planet for us nicely.


C8H18 + 12.5O2 ---------> 8CO2 + 9H2O + you know what

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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:um just because their is no life on the planet now does not mean their is not going to be any there in 500 000 years, their are bacteria n stuff there already, mabie we shouldent coz life may evolve there one day, sooooo by interfearing in another eco system we could be snubbing out fucture potential life mabie.
Hay ive got a good idea why dont we sort out our own eco system before changeing others
mabie i donno hmmmm


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:"I think we should send Vanize there and find out" ubblol

Noooo! If we send him up to Mars he'd never come back frown wink

I think the theory of the colonisation of Mars is an interesting one, but I don't think the funding would ever be made available.


Getting to the other side smile

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Adrillf
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Adrillf

member
Location: UT

Total posts: 112
Posted:From a bio perspective, Mars soil is COMPLETLY different than Earth soil. And soil is sort of important for any life to start, micro or macro life usually has some sort of connection with soil. We could try to play god on Mars, but as people before have said, we have our own problems here, take care of Earth first, then we can go play around with Mars.

missegyptology: I'm gonna be a terrorist when I grow up anyway

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Nucleopoi
BRONZE Member since Nov 2004

Nucleopoi

chemical attraction
Location: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England

Total posts: 1097
Posted:eventually earth will become too heavily polluted and humans will no longer exist if we carry on the way we are.if we remake mars the human race can continue to prosper and dominate.

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FIREBOY4209
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

FIREBOY4209

The lone Fire Spinner
Location: Channel islands Jersey UK

Total posts: 236
Posted:One day I'm sure we will populate mars be it living in domes or terraforming the surface. If you look at nature,species that survive are usualy the ones that can adapt (ie: Humans,rats,seagulls,pigeons,squirrels etc..) and thrive. As the human species thrives it will requie more and more space to survive. So inevetably at some point humankind will have no option but to start colonising other worlds otherwise it will begin to get a little cramped on this small planet of ours.
At the very least one day large companys will start pushing to go to mars as resources(ie:oil,coal,metals etc...) run out on earth they will look to other planets from where they can obtain them.
All in all the question is who will get to mars first the the human colonists looking for more space or the large companys looking for more profit?


To play it safe is not to play

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Given the sheer expense of moving human sized masses from Earth to Mars or vice versa, I think it's pretty unlikely that Mars will be colonised in ther sense of Humans going from Earth to Mars; or that corporations will mine Mars and bring stuff back to Earth.

The expense of moving human sized masses into space also makes it unlikely that colonisation of space in general will involve people in space ships.

The exponentially increasing capacity of digital storeage media makes it seem quite feasible that consciousnesses could colonise space- very small, very lightweight computerised systems holding minds that are either full-on artificial intelligences, or possibly even downloaded human minds.

However, given the increase in digital media capacity, maybe colonisation of space would be seen as less worthwhile than humanity simply moving inwards instead; to virtual living spaces that are theoretically infinite in extent yet occupy, in the real world, negligible space and use minimum resources.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:
The Matrix?

Given the pollution that's being kicked out all over the earth, who's to say that we won't start adapting to it? Evolution is a wonderous thing, it just takes time.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Socks
BRONZE Member since Nov 2004

Socks

Arf! Can I have a biscut?
Location: North America, Mid West

Total posts: 288
Posted:Written by: Fryed Fish

Ok so I just read an artical on mnsbc that stated some scientists think that we can "remake" Mars.



Haven't we messed up our own planet sufficiently well enough? Shouldn't we get our own home together before we go about terraforming somoene else's planet first?

Geez, and people say Americans are rude? rolleyes

Socks


I'm weird. Just work through that and we'll all be fine.

"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater suggest that he wear a tail." - Fran Lebowitz

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Posted:Have to say I agree with Socks on this one. We need to learn to live on this planet before we go screwing up another.



onewheeldave: Lately I've had the pleasure of reading several books on neuro-science. And from that I think that the idea of digitizing human conciousness is far from happening anytime soon, if ever. We might know which part of the brain is used for something. But we have little to no idea how it does it.


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mtbeer
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

mtbeer

ARRRR!
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 529
Posted:I'm guessing they will find a way to turn the moon into one giant billboard before raping Mars. Let's hear it for unbridled greed!

"My skin is singed but it heals my heart and with glowing pride I'll wear my scars." -Davey Havok

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:mtbeer.... ohhhh. That's awful. Imagine Golden Arches on the moon eek eek

(Why are they called golden?! Surely sickly yellow would be more appropriate?!)


Getting to the other side smile

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FIREBOY4209
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

FIREBOY4209

The lone Fire Spinner
Location: Channel islands Jersey UK

Total posts: 236
Posted:I would also have to agree that we have to learn to live on this planet before ever colonising another. Otherwise we could end up making the same mistakes all over again.Thankfully we are a long way of flying off to populate other planets.

onewheeldave:You know it wasn't that long ago since only the most wealthy individual could afford to own and use a car, but now practicaly everybody has one! As technology improves and becomes more widely used it will become cheaper to make so who knows how long it will be before people start heading for mars. After all the world has already had its first space tourist.


To play it safe is not to play

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Hubert_Cumberdale
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

Hubert_Cumberdale

[psylocibin fingerbobe].
Location: London

Total posts: 479
Posted:I read about this too the other day.

The idea of making another world habitable for humans is called Terraforming right?

I'm a bit sceptical to be honest. After all if we can't even keep the home planet in order, what chance do we stand with Mars.


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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:We are not yet ready to join the Federation.

taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Patrick the Bonsai Badger


onewheeldave: Lately I've had the pleasure of reading several books on neuro-science. And from that I think that the idea of digitizing human conciousness is far from happening anytime soon, if ever. We might know which part of the brain is used for something. But we have little to no idea how it does it.



It's not necessary to digitize human consciousness though.

It's highly likely that our consciousness is a mere by product of the sheer complexity and scale of the organic computing machine that is our brain.

As the storeage capacity and processing power of computers continues to increase, it's inevitable that some form of consciousness will occur, whether humanity intends it or not.

It's to humanities advantage to utilise that and try to ensure that there is some extensive human/computer relationship and understanding.

In the same way that a child of a primitive tribe, if brought up in our culture, will think in the way we do, rather than existing in the world of shamanic spirits that his parents do- so a computer consciousness that exists and interacts with the culture of humanity is likely to approximate human consciousness?

So- I agree with you that digitising a human consciousness, or uploading a person onto a digital system, is definitly a long way in the future and maybe even impossible; the hardware is just too different.

However, that doesn't at all preclude the possibility (and arguably, the inevitability) of human type artificial consciousness.

I'm old enough to remember zx81's, Spectrums and 16 Kb add on RAM packs- todays PCs and what is possible with them bears no relation to computers of 20 years ago.

Extrapolate that over another hundred years- it's almost inconceivable that there won't be silicon based intelligences.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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