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"if i jump in the fire, will you?"
Location: USA, wishing I was in SA

Total posts: 633
Posted:P- Bush asked congress the other day for an increase to wage the war on Iraq. He is asking for $80 Billion , bring the total price of going to war with Iraq up to round $320 Billion . now considdering that there are about 300 million people living in the US of A , that would mean that the war is costing each and every single person $1200 . now for you and me that doesnt sound too expensive over one year , hundred bucks a month (wow that is alot of cash!) but for a family of four thats $4800 a year ! now cosidder how many people dont even pay taxes and the ones that " just slip through the cracks " the " illeagal imms."

the people to blame are winning the war of making every American's life a missery! just like their lives are

"this war is not won or lost in Iraq , but in the hearts of every American... "

just my thoughts ....... thanks for reading

( numbers rounded off )


i like breaking the Law frown , of Gravity wink !

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Ok, where are the numbers showing that it is an increase from pre-fighting? What were the qualifications of clean drinking water? And a charity group has no reason to paint a grim picture do they?

The point though is that the military is not going in, destroying infrastructure and walking away. They are repairing and making better

I don't buy your oil reasoning.

Your last paragraph made no sense


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Dream..you're usually a pretty accurate kind of guy, I'm surprised that you'd try to float that lancet study by given all the criticisms that surround it. Even the IBC site, the one that you got the 77,305 - 84,222 figures from, published their critique and linked to it from their front page.

I can agree with different studies proposing differing numbers but when I see a study who's numbers differ by an order of magnitude, then alarm bells go off.


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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:These are a bit dated, and much more has been done than just this, but how about us updating their ports? Immunizing over 4 million children, and renovating more than 2,400 schools as of April 2004, and increasing school attendance by 95%? 240+ hospitals and 2400 health care clinics operating?

Why is it that the media is hell bent on not showing anything positive out of Iraq? And why are you so convinced that nothing good could possibly be going on? You may want to thing that over a bit. How many soldiers have you talked to lately? Have you talked to any? Or are you the type that would condemn a military man simply because of his lifestyle?

Michael Yon is a military blogger, and recently put out a piece about the pessimistic media.

 Written by:

No thinking person would look at last year's weather reports to judge whether it will rain today, yet we do something similar with Iraq news. The situation in Iraq has drastically changed, but the inertia of bad news leaves many convinced that the mission has failed beyond recovery, that all Iraqis are engaged in sectarian violence, or are waiting for us to leave so they can crush their neighbors.



The facts are that deaths in Iraq have been down, both military and civilian since June, but have you heard much about that in the news? Of course not, good news doesn't make ratings. Civilian deaths between religious groups have fallen +50% IED's are down by 75%.

As I said before, it's NOT "okay" and I would much rather NOT be at war. But I say again, we are in this war, whether it is good or not, and I would rather spend money on it and save lives, both our military and Iraqi civilians, than improving my gas mileage or making solar panels.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:So Lurch, you are now telling me that the reason for the American led invasion of Iraq was to upgrade their ports.





Think about it, ship oil to the States, you are probably right.



I suspect that the media is not showing anything positive out of Iraq, because there is nothing positive about an illegal invasion.



I completely agree, the cost of the Iraq war is what you are prepared to pay for your fossil fuels and energy.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1196166887)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted::headdesk: It is not blood for oil!

And while war itself is a negative we have already pointed out the positives that we are doing. There are drives for school supplies and toys at my work. Others are raising money for hospitals. It's not just the military there, we have charity groups too. We are determined for some positives even if it is hard to see because of media bias. We are an area with lots of military families so we get lots of positive news that soldiers and voluteers are doing over there.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Actually stone the upgrades to their port I was talking about was to the Port of Umm Qasar, so we could offload grain and other humanitarian supplies faster to give to the people.

You honestly think nothing good has/will come from removing Saddam from power? The UN tried its economic sanctions, it passed 18 resolutions against Iraq from the 80's until the war. What did they do? A whole lot of nothing, other than harm the innocent Iraqi civilians due to Saddam's continued oppressive leadership.

The "Oil for Food" program was a dismal failure, yet it ran from 96 to 03, funneling billions into Saddam's pockets. Who were the key players against the war and ending the Oil for Food program? France, Russia, and China. Who were reaping huge profits because of it? France, Russia, and China. They don't have any moral high ground in opposing the war, they opposed it for economic reasons. They wanted their money, and they stood to gain the longer Saddam was in power.

I watch and read the news, I've also been on the other side of the stories and know how far the media can twist them. Have you talked to the soldiers who are over there, heard *their* side of the story? Or do you go only by what the major media outlets are spewing forth for ratings?


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, while I admire your patriotism and support for your troops, I dont see how you can honestly justify this war.



I dont think anything good will come from the invasion of Iraq, or from the removal of Saddam from power. How could it? With outright lies about the threat of Weapons of Mass Destruction the invasion was a deception from the start. There was no smoking gun.



While Saddam may have been a despot, Iraq had a stable secular government until the invasion. All Bush achieved was to replace that stable government with a government made up of religious fanatics. This action ignited a civil war.



All you are doing is trying to shift blame for the invasion by citing a few so called humanitarian projects. Better to admit it was a big mistake, than to try and keep justifying the unjustifiable. That way America might listen to the advice of the UN next time, and hopefully be a little less trigger happy.





I have a grain farming background, so Im a bit cynical of your so called humanitarian reasons for upgrading the Port of Qasr to receive grain. I think many farmers would view this as another attempt to poach a traditional Australian grain market wink



I get the majority of my news from Australias independent broadcaster, the ABC.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Well I appreciate that stone. To be honest I'm more intent on defending the soldiers and the people over there than to justify the war. An attack on the war walks a very fine line of attacking the people who are fighting for their country. Undermining the war effort, no matter how misguided that war may be puts more lives at risk. Protest the war all you want, but not at the risk of jeopardizing the safety of our citizens.

As for the 'lies' about the WMD, it all goes to intent, and whether they knew the information was false. WMD was not the *only* reason we went in, although it was toted as such by many. Bush may be an idiot, but if he was blatantly lying about the weapons or the intelligence he would have at least been smart enough to plant some for us to 'find'. Don't think for a second it would be above our ability to do so. Saddam was forced into a war he couldn't win, so what better way to make us look a fool than to play innocent. That he has had WMD in the past wasn't a question at all, the question was whether he still had them, and he wouldn't/couldn't provide proof of their destruction.

This war has been a cluster@#$% from the start. Iraq *could* have turned out how envisioned, the military requested 3 times the troops they were given for the initial invasion, somehow congress thought they knew better than the military what would be needed. They wanted more troops because they knew the area would not be stable without enough troops to occupy (temporarily) areas after they had been passed. Was the war a mistake? I'm not sure either way, most of my friends who have been over there whole heartedly believe in their mission, and that they are indeed helping, and doing good. Many volunteer for a second tour because they *want* to be there. I know the way it was carried out was a mistake however. There was no commitment, I don't know how anyone could have expected an outstanding success while demanding to figuratively shackle the soldiers feet and tie one arm behind their back.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Lurch




As for the 'lies' about the WMD, it all goes to intent, and whether they knew the information was false. WMD was not the *only* reason we went in, although it was toted as such by many. Bush may be an idiot, but if he was blatantly lying about the weapons or the intelligence he would have at least been smart enough to plant some for us to 'find'. Don't think for a second it would be above our ability to do so.



While many consider Bush's actions to be dishonest, if WMDs had been planted by the US, that really would be a whole different level where the dishonesty would be totally undeniable in the eyes of the entire world.

And, while there's no doubt that it would have been possible for the US govt to have planted WMDs, it wasn't possible to guarantee that the truth would not have surfaced in the future.

For that reason, it would have been a huge risk for the US govt to plant WMDs.

If it had been possible to plant WMDs with a guarantee of the truth not being discovered, it's very likely they would have done so, on the grounds that, in their eyes, the dishonesty would have been justifed on the grounds that it would help with the war effort and therefore, in the long run, save the lives of US soldiers.

If that's true, then the fact that the US govt didn't plant WMDs, does suggest that it was almost impossible to do so, without a high risk of discovery in the future.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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