Forums > Social Discussion > the cost of Iraq
Login/Join to Participate"if i jump in the fire, will you?"
633 posts
Location: USA, wishing I was in SA
633 posts
Location: USA, wishing I was in SA
Posted:
P- Bush asked congress the other day for an increase to wage the war on Iraq. He is asking for $80 Billion , bring the total price of going to war with Iraq up to round $320 Billion . now considdering that there are about 300 million people living in the US of A , that would mean that the war is costing each and every single person $1200 . now for you and me that doesnt sound too expensive over one year , hundred bucks a month (wow that is alot of cash!) but for a family of four thats $4800 a year ! now cosidder how many people dont even pay taxes and the ones that " just slip through the cracks " the " illeagal imms."
the people to blame are winning the war of making every American's life a missery! just like their lives are
"this war is not won or lost in Iraq , but in the hearts of every American... "
just my thoughts ....... thanks for reading
( numbers rounded off )
P- Bush asked congress the other day for an increase to wage the war on Iraq. He is asking for $80 Billion , bring the total price of going to war with Iraq up to round $320 Billion . now considdering that there are about 300 million people living in the US of A , that would mean that the war is costing each and every single person $1200 . now for you and me that doesnt sound too expensive over one year , hundred bucks a month (wow that is alot of cash!) but for a family of four thats $4800 a year ! now cosidder how many people dont even pay taxes and the ones that " just slip through the cracks " the " illeagal imms."
the people to blame are winning the war of making every American's life a missery! just like their lives are
"this war is not won or lost in Iraq , but in the hearts of every American... "
just my thoughts ....... thanks for reading
( numbers rounded off )
i like breaking the Law 
, of Gravity 
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SILVER Member
member
185 posts
Location: Australia,Vic
member
185 posts
Location: Australia,Vic
Posted:
80 billion, thats Australia GNP isn't it? I might be mistaken. but its a lot of money
80 billion, thats Australia GNP isn't it? I might be mistaken. but its a lot of money
"glow bugs, to slow to resist eating, to bitter to eat more than one handfull in a sitting" toothpaste for dinner
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
if you fear your enemy they controll you. war gives controll (stabs war)
if you fear your enemy they controll you. war gives controll (stabs war)
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
Kids don't pay tax, so actually adults would pay a lot more than $1200.
I thought about this the other day of the UK
Written by:
but for a family of four thats $4800 a year
Kids don't pay tax, so actually adults would pay a lot more than $1200.
I thought about this the other day of the UK
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
What I want to know is... where have they got this money from?
This $320 billion didn't just come from nowhere... so if they had it (or were able to access it) pre Sept 11, why didn't they spend some on schools or on improving manufacturing, resulting in jobs?
I mean, that's not just money you find down the back of the couch, or from tightening a few belts - it could have made a huge positive impact on Americans, rather than a huge negative impact on Iraqis.
What I want to know is... where have they got this money from?
This $320 billion didn't just come from nowhere... so if they had it (or were able to access it) pre Sept 11, why didn't they spend some on schools or on improving manufacturing, resulting in jobs?
I mean, that's not just money you find down the back of the couch, or from tightening a few belts - it could have made a huge positive impact on Americans, rather than a huge negative impact on Iraqis.
Getting to the other side 
BRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Posted:
@ Mr Majestik
Whats it good for anywho 
@ Mr MajestikWhats it good for anywho
My Mummy Says Im Special
Diamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posted:
The current administration has yet to tell us where it's coming from. A logical answer, had the oppressed Iraqi people invited us in the first place, would be that they could pay for this war out of pocket with oil money. Or give us a deal on purchasing oil. OPEC wouldn't allow either of those things to happen, I suspect. In the end, the people will pay for it in higher taxes. Certainly not the people who are behind this war, because they don't pay nearly as much taxes as they should. When something doesn't make sense, look at who's benefiting.
https://www.wrmea.com/
Check out the counter in the upper left hand side...
The current administration has yet to tell us where it's coming from. A logical answer, had the oppressed Iraqi people invited us in the first place, would be that they could pay for this war out of pocket with oil money. Or give us a deal on purchasing oil. OPEC wouldn't allow either of those things to happen, I suspect. In the end, the people will pay for it in higher taxes. Certainly not the people who are behind this war, because they don't pay nearly as much taxes as they should. When something doesn't make sense, look at who's benefiting.
https://www.wrmea.com/
Check out the counter in the upper left hand side...
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
That's just it, Firepoise. We don't have it. We have raked up a huge national debt because of Iraq (among other things). Companies that are building the military equipment under government contracts aren't getting paid for them. It means the government has to cut back in other areas...funding for scientific research, etc.
As far as schools in the states, they are funded in great part by the taxes from each state government, not the national government. How each state deals with it's schools and the funding of them is up to each state, mostly not a national level. There are however a few standardized tests that exist across states, but for the most part they differ between states.
That's just it, Firepoise. We don't have it. We have raked up a huge national debt because of Iraq (among other things). Companies that are building the military equipment under government contracts aren't getting paid for them. It means the government has to cut back in other areas...funding for scientific research, etc.
As far as schools in the states, they are funded in great part by the taxes from each state government, not the national government. How each state deals with it's schools and the funding of them is up to each state, mostly not a national level. There are however a few standardized tests that exist across states, but for the most part they differ between states.
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
So the government got their $320 billion from cutting back on a few areas?
That's alot of cutting back.
So the government got their $320 billion from cutting back on a few areas?
That's alot of cutting back.
Getting to the other side
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
You're right, it is a lot of cutting back. I work in science research. Grants are usually awarded for many millions of dollars a piece. The number of grants available has been dwindling, which is difficult for any scientist doing research. When there's no money to fund research, there's no more research that can be done. This has hurt scientists in many, many areas which is a huge shame in my opinion.
We also have to deal with giving aid to foreign countries. When Bush originally announced how much he would give to the Tsunami releif effort, he took lots of crap from the UN and other developed nations because the amount was not very large (in their eyes). Thus, we had to give more money (that we don't really have in the first place).
Also, just because we've spent $320 billion, that doesn't mean we have $320 billion. Right now, we have a HUGE deficit - meaning more money going out than coming in.
You're right, it is a lot of cutting back. I work in science research. Grants are usually awarded for many millions of dollars a piece. The number of grants available has been dwindling, which is difficult for any scientist doing research. When there's no money to fund research, there's no more research that can be done. This has hurt scientists in many, many areas which is a huge shame in my opinion.
We also have to deal with giving aid to foreign countries. When Bush originally announced how much he would give to the Tsunami releif effort, he took lots of crap from the UN and other developed nations because the amount was not very large (in their eyes). Thus, we had to give more money (that we don't really have in the first place).
Also, just because we've spent $320 billion, that doesn't mean we have $320 billion. Right now, we have a HUGE deficit - meaning more money going out than coming in.
Diamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posted:
I think the Adminsistration is also forced to spend money on this war because it has already cost so much. They have to keep it going until it produces some kind of measurable success. If they were to pull out tommorrow having spent all this money and have nothing to show for it, they would look (more) ridiculous. The only thing they know how to do is keep beating the horse, keep throwing money at the problem and hope it gets better. But that's how they've always handled unsolvable problems domestically.
I think the Adminsistration is also forced to spend money on this war because it has already cost so much. They have to keep it going until it produces some kind of measurable success. If they were to pull out tommorrow having spent all this money and have nothing to show for it, they would look (more) ridiculous. The only thing they know how to do is keep beating the horse, keep throwing money at the problem and hope it gets better. But that's how they've always handled unsolvable problems domestically.
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
SILVER Member
addict
475 posts
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia
addict
475 posts
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia
Posted:
I have done some extensive research on this topic.
Me and some other people have spoken with people "in the know"
about these sorts of things, and apparantly the war in Iraq is bringing the american economy "Crashing to its knee's"
So to avoid poverty and mass riots
All you american friends should move down here to sunny Australia to hang out and drink beer. We would love to have you guys as long as you bring some fuel ^_^
I have done some extensive research on this topic.
Me and some other people have spoken with people "in the know"
about these sorts of things, and apparantly the war in Iraq is bringing the american economy "Crashing to its knee's"
So to avoid poverty and mass riots
All you american friends should move down here to sunny Australia to hang out and drink beer. We would love to have you guys as long as you bring some fuel ^_^
Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
second the above motion(cheap fuel is non-negotiable):D
done a whole 2.5 hours legal driving in my life!
second the above motion(cheap fuel is non-negotiable):D
done a whole 2.5 hours legal driving in my life!
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Posted:
I can understand frustrations at cutting back in research spritie, but be careful when talking of 'being able to afford' to give aid.
Research in certain fields has, and indeed wil inevitably continue to lead to a great many life saving/changing discoveries for mankinds betterment. Unfotunately that can take time, and require a long term view (a view which is rarely taken into account in todays world of instant results).
However, giving aid in such a unique situation as the aftermath of the Tsunami can save lifes in the immediate term, right now. I think thats a short term pain worth enduring for a long term gain.
I understand that the US has a growing gap between rich and poor, and one of the highest poverty levels of a 'developed' nation (god bless capitalism). However, one has to look into a mirror as to why that happens, and cannot take frustrations out on those even less fortunate in the world. In a democracy, especially in a developed world, a country has to hold itself to account. That includes how your society works, and how it is failing those within it, and why. The problem is weak self-serving leadership combined with the ignorance of the majority of the electorate. Its a consistent, persistent ignorance - a result of americanisation.
Its also worth remembering that America became the power that it is in the world on the back of War, and for a handful in the country it can be extremely profitable. For the rest it results in crippled pubic services and the prospect of a higher tax burden (a burden not incurred by helping the poor, but supporting the rich).
That was all quite long winded and I realise that i may have jumped the gun or misinterped...but I guess could be summed up by saying you cant punish the meekest for the incompetency of the richest.
Lecture over
I can understand frustrations at cutting back in research spritie, but be careful when talking of 'being able to afford' to give aid.
Research in certain fields has, and indeed wil inevitably continue to lead to a great many life saving/changing discoveries for mankinds betterment. Unfotunately that can take time, and require a long term view (a view which is rarely taken into account in todays world of instant results).
However, giving aid in such a unique situation as the aftermath of the Tsunami can save lifes in the immediate term, right now. I think thats a short term pain worth enduring for a long term gain.
I understand that the US has a growing gap between rich and poor, and one of the highest poverty levels of a 'developed' nation (god bless capitalism). However, one has to look into a mirror as to why that happens, and cannot take frustrations out on those even less fortunate in the world. In a democracy, especially in a developed world, a country has to hold itself to account. That includes how your society works, and how it is failing those within it, and why. The problem is weak self-serving leadership combined with the ignorance of the majority of the electorate. Its a consistent, persistent ignorance - a result of americanisation.
Its also worth remembering that America became the power that it is in the world on the back of War, and for a handful in the country it can be extremely profitable. For the rest it results in crippled pubic services and the prospect of a higher tax burden (a burden not incurred by helping the poor, but supporting the rich).
That was all quite long winded and I realise that i may have jumped the gun or misinterped...but I guess could be summed up by saying you cant punish the meekest for the incompetency of the richest.
Lecture over
My Mummy Says Im Special
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
"The problem is weak self-serving leadership combined with the ignorance of the majority of the electorate. Its a consistent, persistent ignorance - a result of americanisation."
Fully agree WM. And America, who has as you say become the richest nation in the world through not exactly moral means, now has a duty to help those who need it.
With great power comes great responsibility, and suchlike.
"The problem is weak self-serving leadership combined with the ignorance of the majority of the electorate. Its a consistent, persistent ignorance - a result of americanisation."
Fully agree WM. And America, who has as you say become the richest nation in the world through not exactly moral means, now has a duty to help those who need it.
With great power comes great responsibility, and suchlike.
Getting to the other side
BRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Posted:
Ah the wisdom of Stan Lee (via orwell - or should that be vice versa?!?!?)
Its a shame that such thought is idealised,promoted, consumed, but not practised...
Ah the wisdom of Stan Lee (via orwell - or should that be vice versa?!?!?)
Its a shame that such thought is idealised,promoted, consumed, but not practised...
My Mummy Says Im Special
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
And unfortunately, not fully understood by far too many!
And unfortunately, not fully understood by far too many!
Getting to the other side
SILVER Member
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Posted:
what scares me most is the lack of education in the states, and those that do get educated get apathetic. As I have been led to understand, degrees from higher education establishments have multiple choice answers, thus "guessing" can be allowed. And the sale of media to corporations gives them "interests" that deny any moralistic slant. And the few that do speak out are condemned for being unamerican, or even worse, ignored.
[/america bashing]
But when you start throwing money at a problem does it rarely get better. You need a more liberal government, but that exacerbates the problem. God i dont know...
what scares me most is the lack of education in the states, and those that do get educated get apathetic. As I have been led to understand, degrees from higher education establishments have multiple choice answers, thus "guessing" can be allowed. And the sale of media to corporations gives them "interests" that deny any moralistic slant. And the few that do speak out are condemned for being unamerican, or even worse, ignored.
[/america bashing]
But when you start throwing money at a problem does it rarely get better. You need a more liberal government, but that exacerbates the problem. God i dont know...
ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Ohhh.
I know I can be harsh with my criticism of America, but you can't deny that the US does have some of the best universities in the world and does produce some exceptionally talented individuals.
I can't speak about it's standards in higher education or the apathy that surrounds the well educated (although that exists in every western world country, unfortunately), because I haven't been there for long enough to form an opinion on it.
But I am aware that secondary education does seem to be failing.
My main problem with America is it's foreign policy... so I'll stick to that, thanks
Ohhh.
I know I can be harsh with my criticism of America, but you can't deny that the US does have some of the best universities in the world and does produce some exceptionally talented individuals.
I can't speak about it's standards in higher education or the apathy that surrounds the well educated (although that exists in every western world country, unfortunately), because I haven't been there for long enough to form an opinion on it.
But I am aware that secondary education does seem to be failing.
My main problem with America is it's foreign policy... so I'll stick to that, thanks
Getting to the other side
Diamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posted:
It's a fine foriegn policy in theory. Like most things this administration does, it looks great on paper. However, if we were going to guarantee such an impressive national debt through liberating oppressed people, why aren't we liberating anyone else? There are countries far worse off than Iraq on it's worst day. And why did we wait until now to do something about it? And most ominously, who's next?
It's a fine foriegn policy in theory. Like most things this administration does, it looks great on paper. However, if we were going to guarantee such an impressive national debt through liberating oppressed people, why aren't we liberating anyone else? There are countries far worse off than Iraq on it's worst day. And why did we wait until now to do something about it? And most ominously, who's next?
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
BRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Posted:
Thats the thing isnt it 'in theory'. Problem with what they are doing now is that its just replaying Vietnam. They are hoping for the democratic domino effect in teh middle east - but what precedent is there for it? And how can you say that and mean it when one of your best budies (saudi arabia) are hardly a shining light - indeed they serve to many as a focal point of anger toward the west due to the neglect of the people by the royals, who are supported (and in turn support) America. ( I believe, perhaps mistakenly, that the saudi royals corruption was/is one of the motivating factors behind bin ladens cause?)
Nothing is learned from history. Vietnam - a mess created out of the west tryign to manipulate the government/ruler. The people get p!ssed and unsurprisingly fall for an ideology specifically aimed at redressing their types of greivance. Domino effect comes into play. Big wanging mess. Lots of death on both sides, horrifc death. US soldiers are treated appallingly at home by a public with both a memory, and moral conscience, of a gnat. Vietnam still suffers today from the dropping of agent orange (now 'war crime' springs to my mind...)
Afghanistan - teh same fear of communism united bin laden and the US. The US armed afghan rebels following the soviet invasion. Soviets gone, US influence comes into area, obsvered by bin laden and co as a corrupting influence, now allies are enemies. 9/11. invasion. Taleban out. YEY. People still b*ggered and plague with strife over warring warlords. (funny that, in a region with no real history of democracy as we know it). Hasnt opium productiona ctually increased? (dont know for sure, but it is still a major problem regardless)
Iraq - well we all know about that and how we creaetd the problem.
Considering our world leaders love for soundbites and cliches, one that springs to mind is 'the path to hell is paved with good intentions'
You couldnt be more right Prometheus. If spreading freedom is the administrations raison detre, then sticking to one region is a bit slap dash.
Its also why regieme change couldnt be a legitimate reason for the war.
Where do you stop.
North Korea is a situation taht cant be dealt with militarily and quickly. Stakes ar etoo high. Thats why a lot often isnt done when peopel think it should. Like when the US says the UN should have done more. Yes, but what then? Plus they knew they weretn going in to 'free the people' but to 'save the oil' which is the same reason why teh UN failed - France and Russias oil interests. (its quite sickening how people suffering is teh fall back position to batter the public with into accepting the need for war - shame they dont pay more attention to africa, sort out corrupt governments so debt can be cancelled and a whoel lot of suffering can begin to end)
So the UN didnt fail, those that belong to it failed in their duties. And when the US (the most powerful nation in the world for some half century)didnt pay its fees to the UN, then you're hardly setting a precedent to the world to respect the UN are you? The body is essential for a harmonious world future in the long term.
Foreign policy that is made without really considering the implication on this world body (considering why it exists - to try and prevent another world war by addressing problems befor ethey reach that stage) is pure folly (wow - what a '60 year old etonian pipe and slippers' thing to say!)
How can you mend something when at the same time you pull it apart?
Monkey monologue over
Thats the thing isnt it 'in theory'. Problem with what they are doing now is that its just replaying Vietnam. They are hoping for the democratic domino effect in teh middle east - but what precedent is there for it? And how can you say that and mean it when one of your best budies (saudi arabia) are hardly a shining light - indeed they serve to many as a focal point of anger toward the west due to the neglect of the people by the royals, who are supported (and in turn support) America. ( I believe, perhaps mistakenly, that the saudi royals corruption was/is one of the motivating factors behind bin ladens cause?)
Nothing is learned from history. Vietnam - a mess created out of the west tryign to manipulate the government/ruler. The people get p!ssed and unsurprisingly fall for an ideology specifically aimed at redressing their types of greivance. Domino effect comes into play. Big wanging mess. Lots of death on both sides, horrifc death. US soldiers are treated appallingly at home by a public with both a memory, and moral conscience, of a gnat. Vietnam still suffers today from the dropping of agent orange (now 'war crime' springs to my mind...)
Afghanistan - teh same fear of communism united bin laden and the US. The US armed afghan rebels following the soviet invasion. Soviets gone, US influence comes into area, obsvered by bin laden and co as a corrupting influence, now allies are enemies. 9/11. invasion. Taleban out. YEY. People still b*ggered and plague with strife over warring warlords. (funny that, in a region with no real history of democracy as we know it). Hasnt opium productiona ctually increased? (dont know for sure, but it is still a major problem regardless)
Iraq - well we all know about that and how we creaetd the problem.
Considering our world leaders love for soundbites and cliches, one that springs to mind is 'the path to hell is paved with good intentions'
You couldnt be more right Prometheus. If spreading freedom is the administrations raison detre, then sticking to one region is a bit slap dash.
Its also why regieme change couldnt be a legitimate reason for the war.
Where do you stop.
North Korea is a situation taht cant be dealt with militarily and quickly. Stakes ar etoo high. Thats why a lot often isnt done when peopel think it should. Like when the US says the UN should have done more. Yes, but what then? Plus they knew they weretn going in to 'free the people' but to 'save the oil' which is the same reason why teh UN failed - France and Russias oil interests. (its quite sickening how people suffering is teh fall back position to batter the public with into accepting the need for war - shame they dont pay more attention to africa, sort out corrupt governments so debt can be cancelled and a whoel lot of suffering can begin to end)
So the UN didnt fail, those that belong to it failed in their duties. And when the US (the most powerful nation in the world for some half century)didnt pay its fees to the UN, then you're hardly setting a precedent to the world to respect the UN are you? The body is essential for a harmonious world future in the long term.
Foreign policy that is made without really considering the implication on this world body (considering why it exists - to try and prevent another world war by addressing problems befor ethey reach that stage) is pure folly (wow - what a '60 year old etonian pipe and slippers' thing to say!)
How can you mend something when at the same time you pull it apart?
Monkey monologue over
My Mummy Says Im Special
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
uh... no. most defnintely not. there may be some teachers who use multiple choice on some tests, and sure you can guess, but that means you'll get about 25% marks - and you need 70% to pass a class. And none of this just taking the final exam over again a few times to pass the test later - you get one chance and if you fail that 70%, then you take the whole class over next year. Also, class grades are dependant on much more than the final exam. You actually have to go to class and work and participate, unlike what I have seen in most of europe's university system, where all you really have to do is sign up for the class and cram for the final exam.
Americans actually get a good education at university. Unfortunately it has to spend time making up for the fact that they didn't get such a great education in high school. Also, Americans have to take a far wider array of classes than europeans do, giving them a broader education, but perhaps somewhat inferior in their area of specialization (since so much tme has to be given over to other classes like history and literature, even if you are a physics major).
And point in fact, American Ph.D.s are generally more highly regarded around the world than they are from almost anywhere else (except maybe Japan).
The lack of education in the states is really misunderstood by most people, even americans. You can find ways to make the US look really bad in education, but then you can find ways to make the UK or Germany look really bad too, just pick your point of view. More Americans go to and finish university than Germans for example.
And if you think the educated people in the USA are all apothetic, then you really have no idea what you are talking about. Educated America is the only hope the rest of the world has against George W and what may come after.
Written by: =Flashpoint=
As I have been led to understand, degrees from higher education establishments have multiple choice answers, thus "guessing" can be allowed.
uh... no. most defnintely not. there may be some teachers who use multiple choice on some tests, and sure you can guess, but that means you'll get about 25% marks - and you need 70% to pass a class. And none of this just taking the final exam over again a few times to pass the test later - you get one chance and if you fail that 70%, then you take the whole class over next year. Also, class grades are dependant on much more than the final exam. You actually have to go to class and work and participate, unlike what I have seen in most of europe's university system, where all you really have to do is sign up for the class and cram for the final exam.
Americans actually get a good education at university. Unfortunately it has to spend time making up for the fact that they didn't get such a great education in high school. Also, Americans have to take a far wider array of classes than europeans do, giving them a broader education, but perhaps somewhat inferior in their area of specialization (since so much tme has to be given over to other classes like history and literature, even if you are a physics major).
And point in fact, American Ph.D.s are generally more highly regarded around the world than they are from almost anywhere else (except maybe Japan).
The lack of education in the states is really misunderstood by most people, even americans. You can find ways to make the US look really bad in education, but then you can find ways to make the UK or Germany look really bad too, just pick your point of view. More Americans go to and finish university than Germans for example.
And if you think the educated people in the USA are all apothetic, then you really have no idea what you are talking about. Educated America is the only hope the rest of the world has against George W and what may come after.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
Thank you Firepoise. I agree America needs a reform of its secondary (high school) education. We do well up through grade 8, but then it all goes to hell because of various factors - trying to teach too much, having to teach to the lowest common denominator, etc...
My main problem with america is the current admistarations policy on anything at all. foreign policy, domestic policy, whatever - it is all crap. and I am totally dissapointed in 51% of america. they should know better. 49% resistance isn't good enough.
Written by: Firepoise
Ohhh.
I know I can be harsh with my criticism of America, but you can't deny that the US does have some of the best universities in the world and does produce some exceptionally talented individuals.
I can't speak about it's standards in higher education or the apathy that surrounds the well educated (although that exists in every western world country, unfortunately), because I haven't been there for long enough to form an opinion on it.
But I am aware that secondary education does seem to be failing.
My main problem with America is it's foreign policy... so I'll stick to that, thanks
Thank you Firepoise. I agree America needs a reform of its secondary (high school) education. We do well up through grade 8, but then it all goes to hell because of various factors - trying to teach too much, having to teach to the lowest common denominator, etc...
My main problem with america is the current admistarations policy on anything at all. foreign policy, domestic policy, whatever - it is all crap. and I am totally dissapointed in 51% of america. they should know better. 49% resistance isn't good enough.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
BRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Posted:
I agree vanize - I remember my American girldfriend at Uni was amazed at how little work we have to do compulsorarily to pass, and I am in awe at the sheer volume of work students are given to get through - tho I think its fair to question the quality/quantity aspect to that
I hear what you say about Educated America, but surely there are the well educated that support BUsh and his practices aswell. Most people in powerful positions have the best education money can buy but still dont spend their time in office addressing real important, fundemental issues - too busy electioneering/profiteering to do that effectively!. I guess im saying that having an education, and making intelligent decisions doesnt go hand in hand
The revolution cant come soon enough
I agree vanize - I remember my American girldfriend at Uni was amazed at how little work we have to do compulsorarily to pass, and I am in awe at the sheer volume of work students are given to get through - tho I think its fair to question the quality/quantity aspect to that
I hear what you say about Educated America, but surely there are the well educated that support BUsh and his practices aswell. Most people in powerful positions have the best education money can buy but still dont spend their time in office addressing real important, fundemental issues - too busy electioneering/profiteering to do that effectively!. I guess im saying that having an education, and making intelligent decisions doesnt go hand in hand
The revolution cant come soon enough
My Mummy Says Im Special
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
absolutely true WM, problem is, they aren't appathetic either - Bush supporters are very strong religious zealots for the most part. nothing appathetic about that. really really misguided perhaps, seeing as Bush really doesn't give a flip about religion and is just playing them for fools, but absolutely not appothetic. And lawyers - laywers and businessmen tend to be very pro bush - both well educated and non-appothetic, but also complete money whores. But most of his voting support comes from the non-university educated half of america.
I beleive it was rumsfeld (could be wrong) who said something like, "the more education people havem the more likely they are to vote democrat - which goes to prove you can have too much of a good thing"
Viva la Revolution!
Written by: Wonder Monkey
I hear what you say about Educated America, but surely there are the well educated that support BUsh and his practices aswell. Most people in powerful positions have the best education money can buy but still dont spend their time in office addressing real important, fundemental issues - too busy electioneering/profiteering to do that effectively!. I guess im saying that having an education, and making intelligent decisions doesnt go hand in hand
The revolution cant come soon enough
absolutely true WM, problem is, they aren't appathetic either - Bush supporters are very strong religious zealots for the most part. nothing appathetic about that. really really misguided perhaps, seeing as Bush really doesn't give a flip about religion and is just playing them for fools, but absolutely not appothetic. And lawyers - laywers and businessmen tend to be very pro bush - both well educated and non-appothetic, but also complete money whores. But most of his voting support comes from the non-university educated half of america.
I beleive it was rumsfeld (could be wrong) who said something like, "the more education people havem the more likely they are to vote democrat - which goes to prove you can have too much of a good thing"
Viva la Revolution!
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
BRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Posted:
Sorry, I completely missed the impact of the appathy comment first time round Vanize
Would it be fair to say that the educated 'left' are apathetic then? or fairer to say that its hard for them to be an effective opposition, due to the spectre of being portrayed as 'unamerican' if they dare to question the Pres in times of terror? A result of fear controlling the masses?
I think Bush's popularity within religious groups is a real shame, as you say, he pays it only lip service, or else he couldnt live the life he has/does. It just aint christain! Also shows the danger of combining religion with poor education - you get a loada fanatical devotees without the wit to question what they are in fanatical support of, which then shows the effectiveness of religion of maintaining control of people through ignorance...(Monkey wanders off muttering to himself as he journeys deeper and deeper into the Land of Offtopica).
Sorry, I completely missed the impact of the appathy comment first time round Vanize
Would it be fair to say that the educated 'left' are apathetic then? or fairer to say that its hard for them to be an effective opposition, due to the spectre of being portrayed as 'unamerican' if they dare to question the Pres in times of terror? A result of fear controlling the masses?
I think Bush's popularity within religious groups is a real shame, as you say, he pays it only lip service, or else he couldnt live the life he has/does. It just aint christain! Also shows the danger of combining religion with poor education - you get a loada fanatical devotees without the wit to question what they are in fanatical support of, which then shows the effectiveness of religion of maintaining control of people through ignorance...(Monkey wanders off muttering to himself as he journeys deeper and deeper into the Land of Offtopica).
My Mummy Says Im Special
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
the apathetic ones in the US are the uneducated I think. they are the ones voting for bush out of fear, if they vote at all. the educated right are probably the least apathetic of all, which makes them both dangerous and a force to be reckoned with. They are also the least egalitarian and most self centered. but certainly appathy does not apply.
the educated left are not particualrly appathetic either. If there is a protest to be had, it is these people at it. it is the less educated left that is appathetic, unfortunately. And for some reason labor seems to think they are republican, even though republicans would rather bend them over and ... well, you know what I mean. never understood that. they used to be democrats, but now they aren't I don't understand.
granted many people in the US are niether apathetic or undereducated, but rather feel completely disenfranchised because it seems to them that no candidate for president or congress is someone they would want. To tell the truth, Kerry was a far cry from what I think is presidential material too, but I see it is not just often neccisary, but ALWAYS neccisary to choose between the lessor of two evils. the less educatedpart of America does not seem to really seem to understand this point.
There is also the fact that a growing number of Americans feel that the united states actually no longer has fair, unrigged elections. But real election reform will never be sponsored by either party in the US - whoever is in power benifits from not reforming, and no one can change it without being in power. At least not till the soveriegnty of the people themselves really stands up and demands it, and things are not yet so bad as to bring that about.
I imagine republicans (and perhaps democrats too) will try to ride that area between where the people do not feel empowered either in a positive or negative sense for as long as possible.
(edited because I am schmuck who can't tell his left hand from his right)
EDITED_BY: vanize (1107276070)
the apathetic ones in the US are the uneducated I think. they are the ones voting for bush out of fear, if they vote at all. the educated right are probably the least apathetic of all, which makes them both dangerous and a force to be reckoned with. They are also the least egalitarian and most self centered. but certainly appathy does not apply.
the educated left are not particualrly appathetic either. If there is a protest to be had, it is these people at it. it is the less educated left that is appathetic, unfortunately. And for some reason labor seems to think they are republican, even though republicans would rather bend them over and ... well, you know what I mean. never understood that. they used to be democrats, but now they aren't I don't understand.
granted many people in the US are niether apathetic or undereducated, but rather feel completely disenfranchised because it seems to them that no candidate for president or congress is someone they would want. To tell the truth, Kerry was a far cry from what I think is presidential material too, but I see it is not just often neccisary, but ALWAYS neccisary to choose between the lessor of two evils. the less educatedpart of America does not seem to really seem to understand this point.
There is also the fact that a growing number of Americans feel that the united states actually no longer has fair, unrigged elections. But real election reform will never be sponsored by either party in the US - whoever is in power benifits from not reforming, and no one can change it without being in power. At least not till the soveriegnty of the people themselves really stands up and demands it, and things are not yet so bad as to bring that about.
I imagine republicans (and perhaps democrats too) will try to ride that area between where the people do not feel empowered either in a positive or negative sense for as long as possible.
(edited because I am schmuck who can't tell his left hand from his right)
EDITED_BY: vanize (1107276070)
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
BRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Posted:
Politics really is quite mad
Did you mean the left are the least egalitarian and self centred, or the right? I thought it was the left that were getting smeared with the dreaded 'liberal' tag, which would point to the opposite, would it not
If the left is socialist - doesnt that mean more egalitarian? Or is it the whole theory/practice conundrum?
It has been a common problem in US politics hasnt it - especially during presidential elections - the lack of a filter mechanism to ensure quality of candidates, rather than it being decided according to whom has the biggest potential war chest, (slight simplification, but grabs the essence )
I think Carter was sadly undervalued
As you say, Kerry was a far cry, tho I really really struggled to understand how some of the campaign tactics were allowed in smearing his war record. That was pretty mad (and maddening)to watch!
He was a MUCH better statesmen, but at the same time, never really revved the engine much...
Much the same here re voting - we have first past the post as opposed to PR - and as you say, it works for those in power, and once people get their, they are gonna try and stay there regardless. Another example of our leaders failing us spectacularly.
What do you think it would take for a mass revolution to take place in the states? Would it take a revolution within the media to really trigger it off and spread the message first in order for it to work?
Politics really is quite mad
Did you mean the left are the least egalitarian and self centred, or the right? I thought it was the left that were getting smeared with the dreaded 'liberal' tag, which would point to the opposite, would it not
If the left is socialist - doesnt that mean more egalitarian? Or is it the whole theory/practice conundrum?
It has been a common problem in US politics hasnt it - especially during presidential elections - the lack of a filter mechanism to ensure quality of candidates, rather than it being decided according to whom has the biggest potential war chest, (slight simplification, but grabs the essence
)I think Carter was sadly undervalued
As you say, Kerry was a far cry, tho I really really struggled to understand how some of the campaign tactics were allowed in smearing his war record. That was pretty mad (and maddening)to watch!
He was a MUCH better statesmen, but at the same time, never really revved the engine much...
Much the same here re voting - we have first past the post as opposed to PR - and as you say, it works for those in power, and once people get their, they are gonna try and stay there regardless. Another example of our leaders failing us spectacularly.
What do you think it would take for a mass revolution to take place in the states? Would it take a revolution within the media to really trigger it off and spread the message first in order for it to work?
My Mummy Says Im Special
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
bah! guwl durn it! too much programming, not enough thinking. - I did mean the right of course - now I've got myself all confused.
will go edit that post now!
bah! guwl durn it! too much programming, not enough thinking. - I did mean the right of course - now I've got myself all confused.
will go edit that post now!
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
BRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom
Posted:
Happens to the best of us
Written by: vanize
bah! guwl durn it! too much programming, not enough thinking. - I did mean the right of course - now I've got myself all confused.
will go edit that post now!
Happens to the best of us My Mummy Says Im Special
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Lol, y'see... America does have it's benefits... it came up with the word 'schmuck'. It's one of those really satisfying words to say. Schmuck. I like the sound of 'munch' too. Munchings and crunchings.
Ahem. Ok, back on track...
WM, I think there would have to be media involvement (and celebrity endorsing - more than Bono and Bob Geldolf) to get widespread public opinion behind a real change in attitudes and thoughts.
There would also have to be a real leader. And there'd need to be a plan and policies, because as both you and Vanize have said, we currently have no viable alternatives.
Anyone any suggestions for a working revolution?!
Lol, y'see... America does have it's benefits... it came up with the word 'schmuck'. It's one of those really satisfying words to say. Schmuck. I like the sound of 'munch' too. Munchings and crunchings.
Ahem. Ok, back on track...
WM, I think there would have to be media involvement (and celebrity endorsing - more than Bono and Bob Geldolf) to get widespread public opinion behind a real change in attitudes and thoughts.
There would also have to be a real leader. And there'd need to be a plan and policies, because as both you and Vanize have said, we currently have no viable alternatives.
Anyone any suggestions for a working revolution?!
Getting to the other side
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