Forums > Social Discussion > the swastica good or evil?

Posted: 17th Oct 2004
A symbol, not unlike letters of a alphabet ( which are grouped togther to form ideas or concepts ), should be discouraged, just as foul language is taught to be 'bad' as young children until one is old enough to distinuguish between, and with knowledge of, the history and agendas of all forementioned data.

Anger Is A Gift

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
swastika, by itself, meh, not particularly bothered.

nazi flag, bothered.



that, i spose, is like saying stars dont bother me, but flags do, or carrot is nice, but i dont like coleslaw. which i do. coleslaw is yummy.



kinda like nuclear physics, really. the sum of the parts is less than the whole or something.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
ok I wanna say something to that I am German and the whole discussion evokes some emotional reaction in me
First I know about the earlier meanings of that symbol the whole history in one direction ore the other, I don't care, fact is "neo-nazis" here (some stupid or more dangerous not stupid, fortunatly, minor group here) take the peaceful history to apologize the use of it.
Sorry, maybe Hitler highjacked the meaning but it is now in this way, it is the symbol of terror, murder, horror ...
I don't wanna highjack it back or something it still a symbol of guilt for Germans even our generation has nothing to do with that time anymore.
We just started to deal with our history, to forgive the generation who lived in that time. That is not easy to see how a whole people was following an insane, ridiciulous, little man, I still have problems to understand that a whole generation was so blind or better wanted to be so blind but the more we study over and over again the german history the more we can see the processes (much ealier than 1930) which lead to that desaster.
And can care for the future that never again from Germany.
To make it short it is in history text books that is enough I can also deal with it at modells (Vanize), or in museums, some reminding is not the worst.
Hope I could make my point clear since English is not my first language as some of you know.

What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
My second hobby is quilting, and I was reading about this just yesterday, so I thought it valid to include from a slightly different perspective.

There are several quilt blocks which resemble the swastika, but all have different names...flyfoot seems to be the most popular. The pattern has been around since the 1700's, and is one of the older quilt patterns of note. An interesting thing to note is that people who had quilts made from that block put them away during the period of WWII so as to not look like nazi supporters. Sadly, many of those quilts remained stashed away even after the war. Today, many relatives are finding them in attics and putting them back on display and in use. I think that is the proper thing to do. The quilts made from that pattern had nothing to do with the nazi's (in fact the quilt pattern is noted for being one of wishing luck and good fortune so was frequently made as a wedding quilt). To keep those hidden just because of an unfortunate time in history seems rather silly to me. They were made to be loved, cherished, and used, and I think they should be brought out jsut for that.

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
It is a thing. It has no power unless it is bestowed upon by an outside force.

It has come to mean two very seperate ideals, and I do know many people from the middle east and several will tell you that you only display the swastika clockwise, and that is how it was always done in their culture, so to say it does not matter as a blanket statement is not entirely true.
And in context, if people take the time to notice, with the Hitler variation going in counter clockwise, then perhaps the clockwise one is more wisely implemented in this day and age as the representative of peace...just for ease of understanding for those who wish to reclaim it.

However, when I studied Hitler I learned he chose it as a symbol of peace and his dream of one united world. That in and of itself is not bad at all. The dream of Utopia, of unity and peace is not evil. In this respect Hitler is ranked among some of the most charismatic and great visionaries in history. Where he screwed up is how he went about it. Yup, it was pretty vile. However, no worse than the Romans, the Huns, the Mongols, the Nords who were all equally as brutal for their own eras. As pointed out the only reason we are so touchy is because it is, in linear speech, relative fresh for us.

What we are talking about with the swastika is political correctness. It is not evil. Nor is it the harbinger of peace. It is a series of lines and to ask if it offends, well, that is rather like asking me, as a Pagan, if crosses are evil because Christians seem hell bent on persecuting us throughout history. Not at all.

What offends are the idiots who wave it around and ignorantly use it as a symbol of their offensive actions. What offends are the absolute morons who believe that it is somehow alright to fill an otherwise inoccuous symbol with hatred. And I feel this way about the KKK, about the Black Panthers and in many ways about the American Flag in it's current use as a symbol of pride in the war.

But that is only my .02.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
only my view hitler had no idea of stragedies so that he wanted something for the world or for the future of the world

all his deeds were tactic only for himself (he took advantage of the zeitgeist and the processes in germany) that was the reason all had to happen in his lifetime with all forces, there was no dream, he wanted to see and take credit of the results, he wanted to lead something strong and belong to it so he can feel as something he knew he wasn't maybe he wasn't conscious I read partly his "Mein Kampf"( you get sick then you read it) all was so obviuos if somebody had really read it in the 1920`s he was just a looser who got ears who wanted to hear him(germans wanted to hear that they are something better after lost WWI) more and more then he saw his chance to get out of looser time o o i get too much in the topic sorry


EDITED_BY: babajaga (1098130889)

What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
Very well said, Pele, and I agree completely with it.

Posted: 18th Oct 2004

Written by: spritie

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My second hobby is quilting, and I was reading about this just yesterday, so I thought it valid to include from a slightly different perspective.

There are several quilt blocks which resemble the swastika, but all have different names...flyfoot seems to be the most popular. The pattern has been around since the 1700's, and is one of the older quilt patterns of note.

---

I did a search and found a page on that pattern, which is here-

https://www.quilterscache.com/D_F/FlyfootBlock.html

and here's a pic of a finished quilt from a different page


Non-Https Image Link


and quote from the maker-

'"When Pigs Fly" -- 1996. This quilt was inspired by the pig fabric (the pink fabric that's not solid -- hard to see in the picture) and spawned the title. So I went looking for a "flying" pattern and came up with Flyfoot. Only after I completed the hand quilting, around each cute little pig snout, did I realize the damn thing looks like a swastika. Consequently, it hangs only in my hallway -- where it's hard to get far enough away to see the design.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
It occurred to me that recently there's been a successful reclaiming of another once-seen-as-fascist symbol ie extremely close shaven heads.

Certainly in the UK, till quite recently, a shaven head was seen as the mark of a thug, and, more specifically, the mark of a fascist, due to the 'skinhead' phenomena of the past.

Now it's totally acceptable, in part due to fashion and large numbers of top footballers adopting the cut.

This is good, firstly for all those people who like such a cut for it's own sake, who previously would have been subject to unjustified prejudice, secondly, because it now ceases to be an expression of racism even for those who would like to use it as such.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
also due to alot of middle age balding businessmen, taking skinheads as it negates the need for a comb over or monk style hair do ! !

fly fairies, fly high, fly wide and take no prisoners !!!!!!

Posted: 18th Oct 2004
another symbol of the nazi's would have to be the hilter style moustache. thankfully thats still not fashionable - i dont care about the nazi link, but it simply looks stupid!!!

ironically, the only modern public figure i can think of that has a hilter moustache is Robert Mugabe...

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

Posted: 19th Oct 2004
I will say, and this is by no means defending him, that hitler did progress Germany a fair way after ww1. given that the country was some three trillion dollars in debt (dont quote me on that, i think i heard it somewhere), he fanned Germany into a country capable of sustaining a good half-decade of all out war. the economic progress that Hitler oversaw/helped with/whatever was amazing, considering that all of 20 years beforehand, money was virtually pointless. any economy with common million dollar notes needs a boost.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 19th Oct 2004
well, it helps when you can just wave your hand and make all that debt "dissapear", and then start spending a bunch of money that your economy doesn't really have and can only support for a decade or so, and even then only if you are invading and plundering the riches of other countries.



If Hitler had stuck to sustainable economics, he wouldn't have been able to do anything more than anyone else - and probably less since he was such a nut about always beleiving he was the only person who could do anything right.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 19th Oct 2004
Dentrassi, that is a really good point. My son is absolutely obsessed with WWII. He has books and magazines about it, etc.
He came out of the bathroom the other day and had put soap bubbles under his nose ala Hitler moustache and said "Look, I'm Hitler." It gave me such tight booty only because those things look so damn stupid! lol

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 19th Oct 2004

Written by: MiG

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I will say, and this is by no means defending him, that hitler did progress Germany a fair way after ww1. given that the country was some three trillion dollars in debt

---

war is money, preparing for war pushed economy that was all what he used

What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.

Posted: 19th Oct 2004
please don't defend Hitler in any way until you've visited a concentration camp.

He deserves no defence on any subject.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

Posted: 19th Oct 2004
It is merely stating a fact, the fact that pre hitler, germany as a nation couldnt afford a loaf of bread, and in around 20 years, germany had become a major player in the world economic stage.



nothing whatsoever to do with anything post-mein kampf.



Personally, i look at that stage of Germany's evolution/social status/time/whatever its actually supposed to be called, as two seperate, but interrelated times, pre- and post-mein kampf.



A lot of the stuff done pre-mein kampf wasnt that bad, and a whole lot of the stuff done post- was really really bad.



edited cos we're cool
EDITED_BY: MiG (1098204301)

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 20th Oct 2004
I don't quite follow you.



Hitler was thrown in jail in November 1923, before which he can only be regarded as a demigouge for a small political party that had yet to gain any political footing. During his 9 months in prison, he writes "Mein Kampf".



in 1930, the Nazi party gets 18% of the vote - the first time they have political power to accomplish anything at all.



in 1932, Hitler runs for president and gets 30% of the vote, loosing to Paul von Hindenburg in a runoff. Hitler is appointed chancellor as a runner-up title and takes that office in 1933. in 1934, Hindenburg dies (coincidence?), and Hitler effectively takes power.



So, I'm wondering how Hitler managed to do anything for Germany before "Mein Kampf", when he didn't wield even a trivial amount of power before 1932 - 9 years after "Mein Kampf" was written?



Within 4 years of him becoming president, he "annexes" Austria and Sudetenland. By the end of the next year, WWII starts as he orders the invasion of poland. Within another 5 years, Germany is completely on the defensive with 3 fronts in Europe, and is utterly and completely crushed a year later - within 11 years of him coming to power.



I fail to see where 20 years of anything at all favorable for Germany came from thanks to Hitler.



At best the 3rd Reich had a handful of peaceful prosperous years (peaceful and prospeous for some, and a living nightmare for others that is), and that was only thanks to the calm before the storm.



His was a course to ruin from the beginning. Any short lived economic prosperity during the 3rd Reich was only an illusion based off a maniacs dream - a short-term loan from the castrophy to come. Nothing good about it, unless you consider selling your soul to the devil for a few easy bucks and a unrealistic dream of world domination to be "good".

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 20th Oct 2004
very well informed, I am amazed, he was also pretty disappointed of not getting more than 50%(43,9) in the voting of 5. march 1933 so not the whole german people was following him later many were scared unfortunatly together with the DNVP another party they had 52%.That brought the stone to roll. He could decide now almost alone that was his goal now he started to eliminate all disturbing "things" and to built another strukture in germany. The Weimarer Republik(1919-1933) wasn't all bad (after Mein Kampf!) but people coudn't yet deal with democracy where from should they. But it was a beginnig just too instable because of several factors... Also a fact what made it easy for Hitler.

I talked about "Mein Kampf" because it was the most unreaded bestseller in that time if more people would have relly read ...

It was all predictable.

Of course people felt better but Hitler spend money he did not have and actually in my view it was part of the plan he needed people supporting him esspacially after the disappointment in 1933 he needed more german people.



Sorry a lot of spelling mistakes

What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.

Posted: 20th Oct 2004
the discussion over the nature of displaying a swastika is reminding me of another dispute here in the u.s., which is that over the confederate flag, those opposed say it is a symbol of slavery and injustice, those who support it say it is a symbol of southern culture, i just thought i would bring it up because the two disputes are very much linked

as for saying the swastika, and flags... are just pictures, yes taken comletely out of context they are, but in our society they have become symbols, and very powerful ones at that

i would not display a swastika or a confederate flag, (even though i know they do not nessasarily represent evil) simply as a way of respecting those who sufferend so much injustice at the hands of the people that used them

peace/fire
lyra

if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes

Posted: 20th Oct 2004
a confederate flag has a prominante "X" on it, and some stars. The Nazi flag happens to have a swastika.

I agree displaying the whole flag of either is in rather poor taste, but don't you think it would be ridiculous to ban "X"s or stars, or have to worry about those designs winding up on something as frivolous as a quilt design?

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 20th Oct 2004
Yeah but still even a design like that makes me feel strange and I bet I am not the only one but banning it I dunno not the best solution, I only I just don't want to look at it ( I saw stupid, fortunatly, not too many people using it for their sh.. even nowadays, I was so often in the streets demonstrating against them having fights with them) and that doesen't mean I am not dealing with history, sorry I am pretty sensitive to that topic

What is psychology?- Looking for a black cat in a dark room. What is psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is looking for a black cat in a dark room -- in which there is no cat -- but finding one anyway.

Posted: 20th Oct 2004
yeah... the united states has had 140 years to get over the civil war, but people are still griping about the confederate flag!

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 21st Oct 2004
hmm. im going to stay out of this one now, i just got shown up big time.

i heard that the VW symbol, when spun fast enough, looks like a swastika. does anyone know the truth behind that?

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 22nd Oct 2004

Written by: MiG

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i heard that the VW symbol, when spun fast enough, looks like a swastika. does anyone know the truth behind that?

---

I'm going to try that!

and sorry Mig if I shouded harsh about the history thing. It is just one of my pet peeves when a valuable history lesson gets twisted around.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 22nd Oct 2004
we have to remember that icons are just that........

CROSS - Many people assume that the cross is a Christian symbol. Christians have indeed adopted the cross but its origins date back long before the Messiah was ever born. The cross can be dated back to ancient Babylon and the worship of the sun-gods Mithra and Tammuz. In fact the cross was not used by Christians until the fourth century after Emperor Constantine (a pagan sun-worshipper) had a vision of the cross in front of the sun.

PETER'S CROSS - Satanists are not the brightest folks to begin with, but you would think they would check to see if a symbol already had a meaning before adopting it as their own. Satanist think if they invert a symbol, it will make it evil or if they spell something backwards it makes it cool. The fact is that this symbol has been known as Peter's Cross for the better part of two-thousand years. It is written and widely believed that Peter was crucified upside down by his own request.

ANKH - Also known as the Long Life Seal. While Christians try to say the ankh is not a cross, make no mistake about it, the ankh is indeed another rendering of a cross. This symbol originated in Egypt and symbolizes reincarnation. Egyptians were pagans and worshipped many gods like the sun-god Amen-Rah, and the pagan sun-trinity: Osiris, Isis and Horus. The ankh and the common cross were both used equally in ancient pagan sun-worship.

FISH SYMBOL - Also known as the Ichthys Symbol (Greek for fish). Another adaptation of a pagan symbol into Christianity. The fish was used worldwide as a religious symbol associated with the pagan "Great Mother Goddess." It was meant to represent the outline of her vulva. It is linked to the Age of Pisces and also has associations with the Hindu deity Vishnu but more so with Dagon the fish-god of the Philistines. The name Dagon is derived from dag which means fish. There have also been discoveries of the fish-god in sculptures found in Nineveh Assyria. Dagon is also found in the Scriptures (Judges 16:23-24; 1 Samuel 5:2-5).

TRIQUETRA SYMBOL - Another pagan symbol adopted by Christianity. This symbol used to symbolize the Christian trinity doctrine; the secretive sign of the Aquarian Conspirators; the symbol of the worshippers of the Black Madonna; the symbol plastered on the image of the face of holders of a coming, new universal smart card and we instantly recall that higher-level Masons worship a false god under the adulterous name, Jahbuhlun. The mark of Jahbuhlun is that of the Triquetra which is composed of three 6's, overlaid.

PROTECTION SYMBOL - Also known as the Ritual Circle. In the occult a circle always represents a boundary of power. If you see a symbol enclosed in a circle, more times than not it is a symbol of the occult. It is a common practice for those who claim to have outer body experiences to draw a circle around their bodies before leaving so that nothing else can enter it while they are away.

YIN-YANG SYMBOL - Together they are polar expressions of the martial art of t'ai-chi, and the eternal Tao in Chinese philosophy. Yin represents the moon, water and the earth. Yang represents the sun, fire and the heavens. More of the same song and dance but from another part of the world than the usual Babylonian paganism that we are so use to.

EARTH SYMBOL - Also appears as a Hopi medicine wheel and Norse sun symbol. This is the symbol for mother earth in pagan religions such as wicca and other forms of witchcraft. the four sections sometimes represent the four seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter or the four elements of the earth: Air, Fire, Water, and Earth. I have actually seen this symbol on the Calvary Chapel down the street from my house.

PEACE SYMBOL - Also known as the Cross of Nero. Many people are not aware of the origins of this symbol or how it became to symbolize peace. This is the cross of Nero, a broken and inverted cross, enclosed in a circle which represents Nero's vision. Nero believed that there would be world peace without Christianity, thousands of Christians were martyred under the rule of Nero. This is what the "peace symbol" represents regardless of what it means to you.

ANARCHY SYMBOL - Also known as the Circle-A. Many people do not give it much thought but the anarchy symbol is also of the occult. Enclosed in a circle is the letter A, which represents anarchy. Anarchy is the absence of all law and disobedience to any existing law. This is the nature of Satan our adversary who rebelled against our creator, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" is the one and law in the Satanic religion. When applied spiritually this doctrine is the doctrine of sin (I-John 3:4).

GAY SYMBOL - Also known as the Thaumaturgic Triangle. Ignorance is bliss amongst the homosexual community. The symbol they adopted to represent their sexual orientation has long been used by Satan worshippers to conjure demons from the bowels of hell. The triangle is used as a door and the circle as a boundary of power. Some Satanists admit doing away with the circle in hopes of being possessed.

PENTACLE - A real popular symbol used by many that dabble in the occult. Many pagans such as those who practice wicca and other forms of witchcraft wear the emblem as a pendant. Some even go as far as placing them in all the rooms of their homes, especially during pagan holy days such as: Christmas, Easter, Father's Day, Mother's Day, New Years Day, Thanksgiving Day, Valentine's Day, and last but not least, Halloween.

PENTAGRAM - Another rendering of the popular symbol, only inverted. Today, the pentagram may be even more common than the upright pentacle. Satanists, a more sinister breed of the underworld usually wear this symbol as a pendant or use this symbol in satanic rituals. It is found at many sites where sacrifices and other rituals have taken place. It is also found as art work on many Satanic heavy metal albums such as Slayer.

HEXAGRAM - Another star enclosed in a circle and another popular symbol used by those who practice various forms of witchcraft. This symbol is not as popular with Satanist and may even be used exclusively by those practicing other forms of the occult such as wicca and other forms of witchcraft. Some people confuse this symbol with the Magen David.

MAGEN DAVID - Also known as Solomon's Seal. This symbol used by rabbinic Jews is often confused with the hexagram by those not familiar with symbology but the Magen David lacks the all too familiar circle associated with most other popular occultic symbols. Magen is the Hebrew word for shield, this is why it is sometimes called the Shield of David. Legend has it that King David's shield was shaped as such. It is more likely to be associated to King Solomon than with King David as the symbol appears on the handle of King Solomon's Sword. I originally thought that this was a good thing, legitimizing this symbol in my mind and making it a good Jewish symbol. Then I read warnings about the Star of Kiyyan (also: Kijun, Kiyuhn, Rephan, Remphan, or Rhemphan) in Scripture (Amos 5:25-27 & Acts 7:43). I thought there would be no way the wise King Solomon could have taken up such a symbol for himself. Then I read about King Solomon's later years and how he was corrupted by his lust for woman, pagan woman, and how he gave into their practices. The fact is that there is no other star that the Jewish people are passionate about and leaves me with no other conclusion that this is the Star of Kiyyan!

remember that without the people who gave these icons their meanings they would remain marks on a page

i must be loosing my mind.............come back!!!!!

Posted: 23rd Oct 2004
Phire you beat me to it........i was going to post about the same thing (but ill admit you posted more than i would have)breat points............

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

Posted: 23rd Oct 2004
Im curious why the swastica is so offensive, but a hammer and siccle or a five sided red star isn't.

I really think deep down, many people could care less thatstalin killed several times more people then hitler did. It's also interesting how it's an abhorable evil to be a neo nazi, but it's popular and trendy to be a communist.

Posted: 23rd Oct 2004
About OWDs mention of the "myth" of the two types of Swastika (left and right handed), one depicting good and the other depicting evil.

i thought that was a load of rubbish too. But there is something to it.

According to various sources on the internet (none of which give the original source )
Friedrich Kroen's original swastika design had the legs facing left, which he believed was the standard method of it's representation in Buddhism. However Hitler specifically insisted on the mirror image, with the legs facing right.

Heres a quote from a Swastika History page:

Written by:

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According to some scholars, "swastika" is properly the name for the symbol running destroverse or clockwise , i. e. with its legs pointing to the left, while the"sauvastika" is actually the Indian name for the sinistroverse swastika, the one running counterclockwise, i. e. with its legs pointing to the right.

Non-Https Image Link

This hypothesis was advanced by J. G. Müller (Geschichte der amerikanishen Urreligionen , Basel: 1855). But Thomas Wilson, one of the main swastika scholars (The Swastika, the earliest known symbol, and its migrations , Washington, D. C.: Smithsonian Institution Report,1894), sees no justification for it.

If one accepts Müller's hypothesis, however, the design selected by Hitler as the symbol of the Nazi movement was not actually a swastika, but a sauvastika.

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i've been trying to find more information about the designer of the Nazi flag, Friedrich Kroen, without much success. i heard someone telling a story him about years ago, saying that he was a dentist who designed a number of incredibly powerful logos, symbols and typefaces. They also said that he ended up in a concentration camp himself because of his interest in abstract art(!).

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."