Forums > Social Discussion > Hate crime legislation. Right or wrong?

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robotface


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Total posts: 190
Posted:What are your opinions on hate crime legislation? It was put on paper to discourage hate crimes, but personally I think it's a shotty piece of legislation, and I don't see how it is justified to give greater penalty for a hate crime then any other crime.

If I beat up a man out of hate because he's black, or gay or jewish etc... why is that any diffrent then beating up a man because I hate him because he's a republican, or likes a sports team I don't like etc etc...

To me, assault is assault. The penalty should depend on the severity of the assault, the degree of pre-meditation etc...

I do agree the hate crime legislation is good when it comes to areas of discrimination, such as work place discrimination.

Another thing that bothers me is the fact that it's a hate crime to write hateful literature about people covered by the hate crime legislation. To me it's outright censorship. Canada recently broadend it's hate crime definition to envelope homosexuals (before it was very vague about how the legislation applied to hate crimes agaisnt homosexuals) and I expect various right wing religious publications to end up in court for writeing about how homosexuality is wrong. Something is wrong when the government can step in and censor religious publications.

Personally I think homosexuals should have inclusion in the legislation just because everyone else does, but it kind of bothers me to see the legislation becomeing larger.

Another issue is hate crimes agaisnt majoritys are rarely charged. For example if I am beaten up by a black man because he hates white men, he will simply be charged with assault most likely (although people have been charged with hate crimes in these instances). Furthermore if I beat up a black man because he beat up my brother for example. Even though my motivation isn't hatred towards black men, there is a very good chance I could be charged with a hate crime and receive more jail time.



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robotface


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Total posts: 190
Posted:actually I am sorry, I was in the middle of an arguement with my mother (on mothers day) when I said I would rather not appologize. Ive been aggresive and disrespectful several times in this thread and im really sorry.

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

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Posted:That's understandable. I really do appreciate your apology and I'm also sorry for any distress I may have caused you.

Hope you and your mother manage to sort things out too smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Can you say off topic?

Went from a debate about hate crimes to the correctness of homosexuality.

It is interesting to see how many people are actually very scared of being told that their life style is wrong, and also being told that someone elses life style is wrong.

So scared in fact that this topic almost came to virtual blows! Then again I have a pretty active imagination, but I swear I could almost see people gettin ready to start swinging at eachother.

If you believe homosexuality is right or wrong, does it really matter? I mean, you either take stock in what the Bible and other religious books say or you dont. Either way, you wont find out the absolute truth untill after you die so live like you will.


My own personal view on homosexuality come from a natural stand point as much as a religious one.

Two homosexual mamals, insects, fish and birds can not breed. They are violating the laws of nature. If you can have faith in nothing else, have faith in that. I honestly dont think there are any homosexuals outside the human species, though it would be interesting to be proven wrong, so this leaves us with one logical conclusion. Since nature has not made any other homsexual creatures, why would humans be differnt?

Homosexuality is a desire. A mental choice.


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robotface


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Total posts: 190
Posted:Burz ever use a condom? Sleep with someone on birth control? Masturbate? If so your just as bad as a homosexual.

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Dogs hump odd things... even female dogs (I know that from... experiance redface ). So, is masterbation really against nature.



But as for the rest of it, it is a choice. So I will agree that per the laws of nature, sex without the intent of conception is wrong.



Edit



Ohh that opens a whole new area of discussion, totally off topic...



If sex without intent of conception is truly agaisnt the laws of nature, whos the guilty party? Both? The person using the contraception? The one on the recieving end for not being a member of the opposite sex? The one giving for not choosing a member of the opposite sex?



Hmm an interesting thing to ponder. Pointless in a way, but interesting none the less.

EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1084159598)


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

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Posted:Quote:
Two homosexual mamals, insects, fish and birds can not breed. They are violating the laws of nature. If you can have faith in nothing else, have faith in that. I honestly dont think there are any homosexuals outside the human species, though it would be interesting to be proven wrong



Ok, speaking as a graduate-level molecular biologist:

1) There is no "law" in nature that you have to reproduce. In fact, evolution depends on the fact that not every individual is going to reproduce. Thus, homosexuality violates no law of nature. It simply means we don't reproduce, which is no different than any person with fertility issues. The logical conclusion of your argument is that being infertile violates nature's laws, and is, thus wrong. Frankly, I require three medicines to keep me functional, so I'd just as soon not pass on my genes.

2) In fact, homosexual behavior is observed in many other species at varying frequencies. Dolphins and bonobos are one example. Any cattle rancher can tell you that bulls sometimes mount other bulls (and that some bulls seem to be quite persistent at it and can't be made to mount females). Furthermore, a single-gene mutation in the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster causes a reversal of sexual behavior, so that males exhibit mating behavior towards other males.

3) I never in my life chose to be gay. On the contrary, if there was a cure, believe me, I would have gone for it a long time ago. I hate being gay. It sucks. I have to fight for my rights. I have to live in fear that the next politician (or this one) is going to try to have me locked up in a camp, or that someone is going to try to pass a law saying that I'm not entitled to medical care. Or that I'm not allowed to be a pediatrician.

Furthermore, because all I ever wanted to do was get married and have kids, I've even had that taken away from me.

And then, I have to deal with ignorance like the kind you just posted.

Why would I ever choose this?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Perhaps my own lack of knowlege prevents me from even understanding what you go through. I don't see how you can not choose to like the member of the opposite sex. I feel that anyone can choose who they are attracted to. Male, female it dosent matter because the idea of what you are attacted to is the same be they ugly or pretty male or female.

I could never sleep with Pam Anderson... I just dont like big breasts, they are actually unattractive to me and in the same light I view men as sexually unatractive. I have seen some good looking guys and some butt ugly ones. Sexual desire remains a choice. I choose not to like large breasts the same as I choose not to like men.

Why do I feel differnt than you?


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Errrrm - because you're not gay? confused

Burner of Toast
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Slacker of enormous magnitude

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted:Quote:
I don't see how you can not choose to like the member of the opposite sex.



Great, Now you're telling me I'm lying.

I'm an Eagle Scout. I hate being called a liar.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Nope, not calling the great scout master a liar, just cant comprehend your choices.

Durbs is right, I'm not gay, how can I understand without asking questions? I am not trying to be rude, just trying to understand. Maybe a conversation like this shouldnt be in the open. I can sence tought tempers, ready to snap and nobody wants to see that from anyone. peace


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted:I told you I never made a choice (other than the futile choice I made to be straight, which led me to live in misery until I came out at age 25). You insist I am.

The only interpretation is that you are accusing me of not telling the truth.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

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Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
If you believe homosexuality is right or wrong, does it really matter?



While people are still being murdered on the basis of being homosexual, I'd argue that yes, it does matter.

Quote:
Either way, you wont find out the absolute truth untill after you die so live like you will.



That's assuming we're able to discover anything after we die. I think the closest realistic point to that is if we know we're about to die, only then will we know whether homosexuality is right or wrong.

To be fair, Burzaruka, you did also say this:

Quote:
Homosexuality is a desire. A mental choice.



And it wasn't exactly clear whether you meant this was your viewpoint or a statement of "truth", although I can see you did include it after your other views.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Please allow me to adjust what I said so that it might make more sence...

I feel, that homosexuality is a choice, I view it as a choice, I am by no means calling anyone a liar if they feel or view it as other. I am saying that a single viewpoint that is contrary to my own is not enough for me to change my mind. I do not know what it would take to change my mind.

What I understand and what I dont understand are two very differnt looking piles. I will admit that. I will also admit that I do not have a clue about the choice or lack of choice for homosexuality. I do know what my gut and my own personal beliefs tell me and untill they are both proven wrong without a shadow of a doubt I will hold them as 100% truth to me.

Quote:
That's assuming we're able to discover anything after we die.



I also believe that after we die, all the truths of this world will be revealed, I am not assuming anything. To me that is also fact.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Burzaruka, I strongly disagree with: Quote:
My own personal view on homosexuality come from a natural stand point as much as a religious one. Two homosexual mamals, insects, fish and birds can not breed. They are violating the laws of nature.

If you can have faith in nothing else, have faith in that. I honestly dont think there are any homosexuals outside the human species, though it would be interesting to be proven wrong, so this leaves us with one logical conclusion. Since nature has not made any other homsexual creatures, why would humans be differnt?

Homosexuality is a desire. A mental choice.



Because that is so much crap. Your view is a religious one and is not one based on nature or science or anything except prejudice. From a natural stand point (and in this case we'll stick to mammals) a small percentage of the natural population is born homosexual; its all in the normal distribution of the population, and homosexuality certainly occurs in other mammals besides humans.

If we look at insects, we c that when populations build up to high levels we get a lot of cannibalism and homosexuality which acts to bring the population below the threshold to avoid extinction.

Homosexuality is a part of the natural order.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted:Quote:
I feel, that homosexuality is a choice, I view it as a choice, I am by no means calling anyone a liar if they feel or view it as other. I am saying that a single viewpoint that is contrary to my own is not enough for me to change my mind. I do not know what it would take to change my mind.




Well that's just too damned bad. Because you're quite wrong.

This isn't an issue for discussion or disagreement. This isn't up for debate. It isn't a choice and I know it from first-hand experience.

You can believe the sky is green for all I care, but it doesn't make it right, so if you want to believe that homosexuality is a choice, go right ahead, but you're plain wrong.

If you can't say what it would take to convince you, that should be the first sign that what you have is not an interest or a belief, but mindless, brainwashed dogma.

And that is so sad.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Religion or not I still don't understand why one believes that they are physically limited to liking only one sex.

Why can't anyone give a definate answer to my questions? Are there no definate answers?

To recap my questions... Why is it that people feel that nature has selected them to like only one sex and that no matter what they do or wish they can't change it?

All religoin aside, I don't understand this, can someone please explane this to me?


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robotface


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Total posts: 190
Posted:Because people grow up in a hostile society and wish more then anything they could be straight? They fake it for several years sacrificing their soul so they can go with the flow, and often end up killing themselves because they have no control over their sexuality?



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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted:Quote:
Why can't anyone give a definate answer to my questions? Are there no definate answers?




No, you answer mine. Why would I choose to be gay?

Go on. What could have been my motive? What makes a nice Midwestern boy, born into a good family, who wants nothing more in his life than to have a wife and kids (I love children in a way I can't even describe), "choose" to be gay?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

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Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

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Posted:offtopic
Right, one thing to get out in the open straight away:
I'm a straight male. Personally, i dont care one way or another if a person is gay, as long as they dont hit on me. Oh, and i dont really like people that flaunt their sexuality (things like the gay and lesbian mardi gras). I definitely wouldn't class myself as homophobic, nor bisexual. Oh, and im agnostic, or atheist, or whatever it is that thinks there might be a god, but dont care much one way or the other. I really dont care about much, to be honest.

Now, with that out of the way, I'll make a reference to the second to last post, that is grounded pretty much in common sense/ basic scientific knowledge:
Quote:
Why can't anyone give a definate answer to my questions? Are there no definate answers?

To recap my questions... Why is it that people feel that nature has selected them to like only one sex and that no matter what they do or wish they can't change it?

All religoin aside, I don't understand this, can someone please explane this to me?



Well, there are hardly any definite answers when it comes to people, especially the mental side of things. Ok, we know that what you eat and drink definitely come out at some point, and we definitely have lots of bones, but i dont think there are that many, if any at all, definite answers when it comes to how we think. I know that i'm attracted to certain things on ladies, and there's nothing i can do to change that. In much the same way, (taking a bit of liberty here, lightning. I will change/delete stuff if you want me to), i bet lightning is simply attracted to males more than females, in the same way that i prefer a short-medium height (~5' - 5'10"ish) female to a 7 foot behemoth. Its not my fault i like shorter females, and its not lightning's fault he likes guys. Its the way the dice fall. Whether it was nature or nurture that caused the dice to fall that way, i dont know, and probably never will.

At the end of the day, I dont think that there is anyone that knows a defite reason as to why people are born gay, turn gay, or stay straight. its another one of those mysteries. Perhaps its better that way, perhaps not.

I apologise to anyone that i may have offended in the above post, and if there is anything that you would like changed, let me know.

Oh, and i think some people should read the terms and conditions page, about not saying nasty stuff.


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
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--FSA

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--Rougie

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:In all truth I can't answer your question, all I can do is come up with conjectors and BS as to why you chose to turn gay.

Your turn to try to answer mine.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:The whole point of what Mikes saying, it seems to me, is that he didn't choose to be gay.

Have you tried asking yourself why it's so important to you to believe that gays choose their sexual preference, rather than it being imposed upon them by nature?



"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Quote:
Why is it that people feel that nature has selected them to like only one sex and that no matter what they do or wish they can't change it?



Well Burzaruka, to answer your question u have to understand how the human body replicates itself. I suggest u watch an excellent video called The Human Body with Robert Winston . That way u will appreciate how complex things are when it comes to human reproduction and sexuality. Like did u know that males start as women in the womb or that Olympic officials cannot determine the sex of some athletics ????



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Actually I did know about babies and though I really didnt know about the olympic offical thing, I can understand the problem. Then again wernt the olympics done nude at one time to prevent women from competeing?

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robotface


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Total posts: 190
Posted:I would like to see you answer onewheeldave's question.

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Ahh but my question was asked first. So at the risk of sounding the same age as my shoe size I am going to take the oprotunity to wait out an answer.

Either that or perhaps I just don't have an answer for him yet. It is most definatly a duzy of a question. wink


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted:Quote:
In all truth I can't answer your question, all I can do is come up with conjectors and BS as to why you chose to turn gay.







How about thinking about it and realizing that it would make no sense for me to choose to "turn gay"?



How about showing some 1) brains and 2) maturity and admitting that you're wrong?



As for your question, I'll answer it with another question: why are some children born sick? Why are some women infertile? Why are some men infertile? Why would nature select for an organism that doesn't reproduce?



Answer: it doesn't. That doesn't mean that we don't pop up anyways. Even if we are "accidents" of nature, it doesn't mean that it's a choice. And discriminating against us is no more morally correct than discriminating against someone with cystic fibrosis (they can't reproduce, either).



As it happens, there may be a selective advantage to having certain genes that predispose to homosexuality that outweigh the cost of having gay individuals. Do you know about sickle-cell anemia and why that disease is maintained in the population?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:If I believed that people were born gay, then I would have no other choice than to admit I was wrong. Brains have nothing to do with it, it is a matter of preception. You admit that you once thought you were strait and that you wish you were, why the change?

People are born with challenges to overcome them. It isn't fair, it isn't logical, but who said anything in life was fair or logical?

Why do you feel that just because I feel that homosexuality is a choice that I choose to discriminate. Where did I give that impression? If you do get the impression that I discriminate, then you are quite wrong.

I dont know about sickle cell animea, enlighten me, why has George Bush decided not to get rid of it? (as I am sure it is his fault somewhere)


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Well Burzaruka, I see u missed the point again. I don't think u really want an honest answer because it might go against your preconceived prejudice. You have to make an effort you know.

Have u ever studied basic biology? Because this is way more complex than making people take off their clothes to determine what sex they are. Nature is not that simple.





If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted:Ask a biology teacher to tell you about why sickle-cell anemia, a genetic disease, is maintained in the population over time.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
Then again wernt the olympics done nude at one time to prevent women from competeing?



Reckon there's any chance of a revival this year? biggrin

Saying homosexuality is a choice whereas other characteristics aren't, is discrimination in itself, in my book anyway.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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