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Forums > Social Discussion > A rant about drunk spinners

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Page: 1234
Cloud Spark


member


Total posts: 4
Posted:Hi. I'm actually a very well-known member of the board. Look at my login name and you can probably figure out who I am if you free-associate for a second. I'm going to rant about someone I know in person and it's possible that she might read this (even though she doesn't usually visit the board), so I'm using this alter-ego in hopes of staying out of trouble.

So I was doing some fireplay for a party. The space that I had was too small for poi, but large enough for fire eating and tracing. I had just finished my act when she showed up, drunk off her a$$, and DEMANDING that I let her spin fire with my poi, which I wouldn't let anyone do in that space even if they sober. And she got really pissy about it when I flat-out refused. I told her she could use my beamers or my LED glow sticks and after pissing at me and telling me to stop being such a safety nazi, she finally tried out my LED glowstick poi.

And she SUCKED!!! I mean, she could do the forward two-beat weave and the windmill and that's it. And she hit herself three times in the first 15 seconds. I let her use my beamers on the condition that she first touch one to her forehead to understand how dangerous they were and she hit herself with those, too. (My view is that I don't care if you hurt yourself as long as you don't hurt anyone else, which is why fire was out of the question).

Sorry, I just wanted to vent. I hate incompetent drunk people who think they can get off demanding to spin fire with my poi. mad mad mad mad

Oh, and if you figure out who I am, PLEASE don't post my real name as that would defeat the purpose of this alter-ego. rolleyes


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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX

Total posts: 2014
Posted:The problem arises when/if something happens to you. If that something is serious (requiring medical attention) and a police report gets filed (it can happen). It then becomes more difficult for those of us who are responsible about when and how we spin to do so legally.

For instance, look at the results of the Great White catastrophe. That made the rules and regulations for fire spinning in the state of TX more stringent. That wasn't a result of any TX spinners, but what the state legislators thought was a safety precaution.

Now, I'm not saying that those regulations are bad because I think it is good to have some sort of safety measures, I'm just saying that if more and more accidents happen, we might not be able to legally do what we do, even with safety precautions.

It's just something to think about simian. If you do choose to play around while altered, please at least make sure you've got someone coherent enough with something to put you out.


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:fair enough, good point

But how is the increased risk from being intoxicated is any different from other 'hazard increasing' factors involved in fire spinning?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX

Total posts: 2014
Posted:what do you mean by other "hazard increasing" factors?

If drugs, then they are just the same. Any altering substance slows the bodies reaction times down and also inhibits your ability to think soundly and rationally.

Fire is inherintely dangerous, so it should be treated with respect.


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Pheonnexx
BRONZE Member since Dec 2003

member
Location: Plymouth, UK

Total posts: 89
Posted:Well most things in life are dangerous (for instance crossing the road) so basically we want to do things as safe as possible.

If we are obviously not going to stop doing things that arent unsafe so one might as well make things as safe as possible. Which means spinning with a clear head as well as all the other safety measures which are suggested through this forum.


Burn !

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Quote:
what do you mean by other "hazard increasing" factors?



If drugs, then they are just the same. Any altering substance slows the bodies reaction times down and also inhibits your ability to think soundly and rationally.





no not drugs. Things like... outsize wicks, recoil wraps with wire, slippery surfaces, burn offs, etc.



None of these things come in for the same condemnation, despite the fact that they increase the hazard of spinning fire. i could call all of you totally and utterly irresponsible for not thoroughly dousing yourself in water before spinning, which would dramatically reduce any hazard.



Quote:
Fire is inherintely dangerous, so it should be treated with respect.



umm what the does that actually mean? Spinning it round your body on chains is treating it with respect? But having a beer first, thats pure madness?



hmm, not sure i'm making myself clear.



i have seen really dangerous drunk spinners putting other people at risk.

i have seen people doing incredible spinning with awesome control while affected by various intoxicants including alcohol.

i have seen many incredibly dangerous spinners who were not drunk

i have seen many firebreathers. IMO firebreathing sober is far more hazardous than spinning fire while drunk.



a responsible person drunk is often far safer than an irresponsible sober person.



of course, at a certain stage of drunkeness there are no responsible people.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Simian, I see your point, but it realtively moot.

"Dangerous" is a relative term. I wouldn't call crossing my street or driving responsibly dangerous, despite the fact that many have died doing it. But you knew that.

Most people have no trouble distinguishing between the 'inherent danger' of aspects of firespinning such as recoil wraps and the added danger of spinning while under the influence of a controlled substance. But you knew that.

More dangerous firespinning activities, such as wraps and tangles and colored flames and sparkly poi are all relevant to fire spinning. It is important to acknowledge the added danger but it it obviously relevant on this site. Promoting the inclusions of dangers that are NOT a funadamental part of firespinning (such as alcohol, drugs and other factors unrelated to fire) should be condemned as they are unnecessary dangers that are not related to firespinning. But you knew that too... ubbangel


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:*stamps down foot and demands a clappy hand icon*

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Quote:
Most people have no trouble distinguishing between the 'inherent danger' of aspects of firespinning such as recoil wraps and the added danger of spinning while under the influence of a controlled substance. But you knew that.

More dangerous firespinning activities, such as wraps and tangles and colored flames and sparkly poi are all relevant to fire spinning. It is important to acknowledge the added danger but it it obviously relevant on this site. Promoting the inclusions of dangers that are NOT a funadamental part of firespinning (such as alcohol, drugs and other factors unrelated to fire) should be condemned as they are unnecessary dangers that are not related to firespinning. But you knew that too... ubbangel



No, i totally disagree with both of those.
(also small point - this particular conversation isn't about "controlled substances" it's about alcohol...)

in the first, i really don't understand your definition of 'inherent' danger as opposed to 'additional' danger. What makes wraps inherent and beer not?
confused
Would wearing a blindfold be inherent or additional?

oh, wait... i agree with the second one, but thought it was saying something else...

its saying we should condemn promoting risks on this site (unless it's fire related). But not necessarily the risks themselves. Yes?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Bummer... I've only got 2 minutes before I need to teach...

"Yes" in answer to my condemnation of PROMOTION of dangerous, non-fire related activities. I do not think, nor do I think the administrators of this site think, that dangerous, non-fire related activities should be promoted.

And I think it's easy to see how a beer isn't inherently related to firespinning whereas doing a firespinning wrap is.

Damn... bell just rang...



Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Quote:
And I think it's easy to see how a beer isn't inherently related to firespinning whereas doing a firespinning wrap is.



not really. i find beer much more relevant to spinning than fire is beerchug


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
But one thing that i dont understand is why it seems people are against spinning while drunk, but dont seem to mind people spinning while stoned



I'm against both. My rule is that if I am not in a condition to drive a car, I'm not in a condition to use fire. So if I had one glass of wine two hours before with dinner, fire is fine. But if I am anything other than completely clear-headed, then beamers, electroglow, sock, glowsticks, whatever. But no fire.

And it's not just spinning. It applies to ANY fire art. Regardless of how sober your Safety is.

I don't care if you're drunk, high, twisted, tripping, rolling, or whatever else. You want to use drugs, fine. That's your business. But, unless you are sober I don't want you using fire and I don't want you driving.

And if my rigidness on this issue doesn't make any sense to you, just think if --heaven forbid-- you required either my services or Psycho's services and one of us tried to practice medicine while drunk/high/etc. You wouldn't buy "I practice medicine better when I've had a bit to smoke," and I don't buy "I spin fire better when I've had a bit to smoke."

But thanks for bringing this up, Faerie!

(For the record, my rules about practicing medicine are more strict. I will not allow so much as a drop of alcohol [or any other recreational drug excepting caffeine] to pass my lips less than 8 hours before I need to be at work. Pilots have a rule that says "Eight hours from bottle to throttle." Mine is "Eight hours from bottle to bedside.")


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:As far as the "danger" issue, there are many dangerous things that we do. The issue is whether we do them responsibly.

Spinning fire is dangerous.
Rock climbing is dangerous.
Skydiving and bungee jumping are dangerous.
Metalsmithing is dangerous.
Working with office-style paper cutters is dangerous.
Working with a table saw is dangerous.
Operating (or riding in) a motor vehicle is dangerous.

However, if you are SOBER, your chances of messing up are smaller and your ability to deal with a mistake or small emergency without it turning into a complete disaster is very much enhanced.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
me control while affected by various intoxicants including alcohol.
i have seen many incredibly dangerous spinners who were not drunk
i have seen many firebreathers. IMO firebreathing sober is far more hazardous than spinning fire while drunk.



1) There is no drug that is quite as dangerous (as far as fire is concerned) as arrogance. Unfortunately, it's impractical to try to ban arrogance from the board. For one thing, I'd have to leave. wink

2) Firebreathing is incredibly dangerous, which is why this site has made such a big deal out of it. Having said that, I'm glad that this site still discusses it because much as we like to preach abstinence as the safest way to go, people are going to continue to breathe fire and some good safety instructions are likely to prevent more injury than quashing all discussion.

It's sort of like talking about safer sex: I always emphasize to my adolescent patients that abstinence is the only way to be totally safe, but I also teach them about what to do if they decide not to be abstinent. Quashing all discussion of potentially dangerous practices is damaging.

However, there are unnecessarily dangerous practices that should never pe promoted. These include spinning fire while altered (and having unprotected sex with multiple partners, for that matter...). The basic rule is that it's important to emphasize the risks of all the decisions we make, whether it's a decision to drive, spin fire, or do drugs. So going on about how great spinning fire while altered is goes against every aspect of good judgement.

Having said that, firebreathing is probably less dangerous to innocent bystanders than is any sort of fire work while altered.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Quote:
Quote:
And I think it's easy to see how a beer isn't inherently related to firespinning whereas doing a firespinning wrap is.



not really. i find beer much more relevant to spinning than fire is beerchug



Then perhaps you should create a website called "Home of Poi and Beer" and you can post whatever you'd like... but here it's "Home of Poi and Firespinning". tongue


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And I think it's easy to see how a beer isn't inherently related to firespinning whereas doing a firespinning wrap is.



not really. i find beer much more relevant to spinning than fire is beerchug



Then perhaps you should create a website called "Home of Poi and Beer" and you can post whatever you'd like... but here it's "Home of Poi and Firespinning". tongue



*Registers www.hop-and-beer.com*


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ok! 'Fess up! Who clicked on the link?

*sheepishly raises hand* ubblol rolleyes


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Think I'll join in this one.

Anyone, and I mean anyone who reckons they're safe to spin fire when they're drunk or on drugs is completely wrong.

So, I've seen lots of people play with fire when drunk or on drugs and not get hurt. I'll even admit to doing to myself occasionally. However I've always thought it a very stupid thing to do.

Like anything in like you have to judge risks, possible benefits and possible negatives. In the case of spinning fire it is relatively easy for a mistake to happen and the chances are greatly increased with any level of drink and drugs. Not only this but with drink and drugs your reactions are affected, hence so is your ability to get out of a dangerous tangle. An accidental wrap that you'd shake off sober more easily become a tangle.

Imagine the damage a poi tangles round your arm will do to you. Imagine the large scar this will leave. Imagine the skin burning and melting away, the smell of burnt skin in your nostrils as you flail about, those around you trying ineffectively to put the poi out. Now imagine 10, 20 years later - a fire scar never heals and they're nasty. Scar tissue never regains the elasticity of normal skin, limiting movement if it's near a joint; it's ultra sensitive to the sun so you're wearing long t-shirts on sunny days. There's people on this board who will tell you how bad a large burn scar is.

It's just not really worth it.


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:right with you Dom,

I think that people who regularly drink and twirl cant actually be interested in improving their twirling, and really are only increasing the chance of getting a bad injury.

It only takes me 2 beers before I notice significant increases in errors when trying moves that are at the limits of my ability. I like beer, but I wouldnt for a second think its a good idea to mix the two.

Josh





--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:*readies himself to disagree with two mods and a doctor wink ubblol *



Lightning - Your posts all seem to assume putting others in danger. Someone should obviously should be stopped if they're putting others in danger whether because of drink or any other factor.



i still don't accept the point that it's bad because it's unneccessary danger. Since when was spinning fire necessary? i really don't accept the distinction. Risk is risk, choice is choice. It's all about the degree of risk you're willing to accept for yourself.



Speaking of degrees of something...



Dom sayQuote:
Like anything in like you have to judge risks, possible benefits and possible negatives. In the case of spinning fire it is relatively easy for a mistake to happen and the chances are greatly increased with any level of drink and drugs.



Greatly increased with any level? umm

So half a shandy = bottle of vodka?



it's about moderation, acting sensibly, and knowing your limitations. Just like sober firespinning. If i'm too "tired and emotional" to act sensibly then yes, i shouldn't be spinning.



You also mention increased difficulty in untangling. Well that's dramatically increased if you use certain types of chain or wire. i don't see them being castigated in a similar fashion...



Josh sayQuote:
It only takes me 2 beers before I notice significant increases in errors when trying moves that are at the limits of my ability.

only one for me redface (low body mass aka "lightweight" wink )

Quote:
I think that people who regularly drink and twirl cant actually be interested in improving their twirling, and really are only increasing the chance of getting a bad injury.

confused regularity is a seperate issue. But when i'm trying to imporve my twirling and pushing the envelope of my abilities, i sure as hell ain't using fire.



beerchug smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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hexagonic


hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1687
Posted:Nice post Dom

ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I almost give up Simian. You're only reading what you want to read and making arguements that nobody's disagreeing with.

I am making two points and two points only:

Point 1: Alcohol is in no way a fundamental part of fire spinning. It does not involve fire. It does not involve spinning poi. You can drink alcohol without any knowledge of fire arts. You can do fire arts without any knowledge of alcohol. All of the added dangers you tried to parallel are innately tied to fire. (I can't believe I'm actually sitting here trying to convince you that breathing fire is a fire art and drinking beer is not!)

Point 2: Anyone boasting about introducing UNRELATED dangers to fire arts is being inappropriate.

Sim, if you disagree with either of these two points then specify which one so I understand what you're saying. Please read the points several times and don't exclude any of the words.

Nobody's talking about getting drunk and spinning practice poi. If you'd like to trumpet other dangers of firespinning then feel free to start a new thread on it. I've constantly preached the importance of using proper safety and would certainly never BRAG about being unsafe. There is a huge difference in the RELEVANCE of the topic and it's DANGER. There are many dangerous things about fire arts that are discussed here, it doesn't make it appropriate to assume that all dangerous activity is appropriate for this site.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:i still disagree with the relevance of point 1, not the truth of it.

You didn't answer my question about wearing a blindfold while spinning...

Quote:
You're only reading what you want to read and making arguements that nobody's disagreeing with.


well, i'm only commenting on points i disagree with, yes.
and if nobody disagrees isn't that a good thing, not a bad thing?

what i am taking exception with are aspects of the general attitude toward safety on this board, and what i consider to be inaccuracies and misconceptions that are stated in support of it.

i've made the same points here but with wider reference

PS- what is it about the way that i write that makes people assume that if i'm disagreeing with part of what they say, then i must hold a completely opposite point of view? This has occurred with various people on this board on different occasions, so i assume its my fault frown
Answers by PM please...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:NYC - couple more things:
Quote:
Nobody's talking about getting drunk and spinning practice poi.


Neither was i. i've mentioned it a couple of times, but thats a side issue about fire-obsession that i also get annoyed by. Consider it irrelevant.

Quote:
There are many dangerous things about fire arts that are discussed here, it doesn't make it appropriate to assume that all dangerous activity is appropriate for this site.


This isn't purely a discussion about whats appropriate for discussion on the site though, is it?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i only have a couple of points as this discussion seems to be coming to a close.

the first one is my personal angle and the second is clarification on the 'unneccessary dangers' point.



1. i have only ever burnt myself badly by spinning fire once. i was drunk when i did it.



2. if you spin fire as a purely recreational activity then the dangers associated with the fire *are* unnecessary ones - no less unneccessary than the dangers of spinning when drunk.

there is no argument that the danger is increased if you are inebriated - the question is, if it is purely recreational then why spin with fire at all?



i don't spin fire much at all nowdays - this may induce a flaming (sorrynopunintended) but i honestly don't see the point.

the *only* thing i really appreciate about it is the limited spin time that fire imposes - and if i really cared that much i could get that effect by just putting a big capacitor into some glow equipment...


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:ok, ignore my posts, Cole just said what i was trying to say, only much better and shorter.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:

You also mention increased difficulty in untangling. Well that's dramatically increased if you use certain types of chain or wire. i don't see them being castigated in a similar fashion...




The monkey is a master of distraction smile

It's true that there is an issue with chains, I just feel that you're using it to divert from the issue of drunkeness.

If you feel the chain issue to be a major safety problem then you could start up a seperate thread to get some useful discussion going on which are the safest chains to use.

Whatever anyone says is wrong, someone else can say 'well.. yes, but, then again x is also wrong and you're not dealing with that'.

There are loads of issuses in spinning, they can't all be dealt with at once, and I feel it's not helpful to the person who tries to tackle an issue by posting a thread on it, or those who want to learn from that thread, to distract by bringing up other stuff.

Being drunk makes fire spinning more dangerous - yes?

-that's the point- chains, blindfolds, drinking 'sensibly', the 'necessity' of fire spinning etc are separate issues.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
Being drunk makes fire spinning more dangerous - yes?





would *anyone* truly disagree with this?



i think not - i know munkee doesn't so there is not really a topic to discuss here.

but here we have a 4 page thread...

purely because we are discussing side issues.



unless we discuss the address these related issues, a discussion on spinning when drunk would last for about two posts:



post one: being drunk makes fire spinning more dangerous.

post two: yes, i and the rest of the world agree with you.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:


would *anyone* truly disagree with this?




Yes. And some have. Right here on this thread. And it makes me want to go find them and take away their poi.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:hmmm umm

i guess you better spank me for not reading the whole thread then wink



for the record, i agree with mike and dave.



and munkee.

and nyc.

and dom.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Posted:Honours to Drunk or Altered Spinners!

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Page: 1234

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