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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13921
Posted:So when I was growing up, there was a lot of talk about being "Proud to Be an American."

I'm not. In fact, I'm ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed of my country and I'm terrified of my government. I'm not proud of who we are, what we've done, or what we stand for. When I was in England, I kept wanting to apologize. I wanted to wear a button that said "It's not my fault!" And I know a number of Americans feel that way now.

So I wonder? Are you proud of your country? I mean, no country is perfect, and bad leaders come and go (Howard? Blair?), but in general, as a citizen of your country visiting a foreign land, do you feel proud to be an emmissary of your country, or do you feel like hanging your head in shame?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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DaiTenshi


member
Location: Stillwater, OK

Total posts: 104
Posted:Wow, how often do I have to hear from people that "saddam's not the only one" and "stuff like this goes on all over the world".

Would you be any happier if the US was trying to take out China? A nation which has since the 80's been slowly working its way towards a modern civil society which in all likelyhood will result in China liberating itself. Fastest growing economy in human history, hands down.

Would we be better off sweeping through South America? North Korea? Africa?

Bringing up the fact that shit happens to go down everywhere doesn't strike me as being particularly anti-war but moreso that you're acussing the military and government of not doing enough.

Chances are this war will be over fast. When that's done we might just do as you seem to be suggesting and go after the others.

As for attacking anti-war peeps, sorry but I often get the impression that I am treated as some sort of backward, barbaric, hot headed, and or evil person for my view that war is the only way to deal with Hussein.

Heh, this thread got OT ^___^ for which I willingly accept some fault


No one knows me like I do.

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Written by: lord ender
well Poiaholic22 if your so sick of them protecting you why don't you leave the country so they aren't protecting you anymore. And for your earlier post about "lost faith in the human race and am quite ashamed to even be a human being." If you have lost all faith in humanity and are ashamed to be one us, why does the thought of a few more deaths of such low beings trouble you. The only people who should concern themselves with human death and misery are those who care deeply for humanity and are willing to protect it. Those soldiers you speak of are willing to kill and cause harm to reduce the amount of death and destruction in the long run. While they strive to inprove the human condition you just sit on the sidelines b**ching about it.





First off if I had the money and resources you bet your @$$ I would be moving to another country ... thank you very much.I didn't ask to be born in this country nor did I ever ask anyone to put on a uniform and kill in the cause of protecting me. smile



Also what is wrong with disagreeing with the armed forces? You can't disagree with someone but still give them your support anyway? I do know people in the forces and I do support them.I just find it to be a shame when they will do things that they know are wrong just to follow orders.



If someone ordered you to do something you know to be morally wrong would you still do it anyway in the name of "following orders"? I do feel that their job is wrong at times.If they were just going to go and get Hussein I would have no problem with that.I have said for a long time we should have taken care of him years ago. Why should we punish the Iraqi people,who consequently have no more control of the situation than you or I? Also when was the last time our freedoms were truly in jeopardy? umm



Another thing that gets me is that we all throw salt at each other and neither pro or anti-war is willing to concede they may be wrong.Have any of you ever asked yourself this question? Part of why I am neither for or against is because I don't have access to the info needed to know the correct answer.



Also I am not allowed to have the HOPE that one day the human race will finally make a turn for the better? I am not allowed to have concern for this big rock called Earth that we so happily abuse? I may not have faith in our race but I do have hope. wave



BTW try to keep in mind that I am not posting in anger or being mean or anything.I put in the "cool,calm tone" so hopefully no one misconceives my mood. smile



I respect your opinion,the least you could do is respect mine.I haven't tried to tell you that you are so totally wrong and that your ideals have no place here. smile



I also noticed our Marine has been MIA from the board for a couple days now.I would like to send him and all our service men and women my best wishes. hug



21. March 2003, 15:31: Message edited by: poiaholic22


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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Written by: DaiTenshi
As for attacking anti-war peeps, sorry but I often get the impression that I am treated as some sort of backward, barbaric, hot headed, and or evil person for my view that war is the only way to deal with Hussein.





Yeah well I guess the truth hurts now doesn't it?



Have a nice day.


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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Written by: poiaholic22:
Yeah well I guess the truth hurts now doesn't it?



Have a nice day.



I'll bet you didn't like that comment,did you?



Just so you know I didn't mean it,I'm only trying to illustrate a point. smile



I haven't disrespected you here please do the courtesy of returning the favor. I respect your opinion the least you can do is respect mine. Or is freedom of thought and speech not allowed anymore? confused



I do appreciate that our service men and women are willing to die to protect my freedom to bitch.I don't appreciate the government who's motivation are so blatantly questionable.We can grease palms in North Korea or try to set up a coup in Venezuala but in order to take care of Saddam all of Iraq has to pay the price.



This is about Bush doing daddy's dirty work.It's about testing all those cool new weapons that they tell you about on the news.Of course it's about oil.



How would you feel to be an Iraqi if you were basically being told we are going to liberate the people of Iraq but in order to do that we are gonna have to kill a bunch of you?



I have a solution I can put in one sentence -

Why don't we just assassinate Saddam and his whole regime and leave the Iraqi people out of it?



All in a cool,calm manner of course. wink biggrin



21. March 2003, 16:53: Message edited by: poiaholic22


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DaiTenshi


member
Location: Stillwater, OK

Total posts: 104
Posted:Now I feel totally justified ^___^

As a man who has turned the other cheek on many ocassions (when in hind sight I probably should've "established some authority") and been forced to fight more than once by people who don't respond to peace and justice, I feel compelled to inform you that when facing someone who refuses to transcend you had damn well be capable of "sinking to his level" or you could well end up 6 feet beloow everyone's level.

Not saying Saddam could really do a damn thing to the continental US, but we know damn well he can and has done it to a lot of people who have every bit as much right to live as you and I.

As far as soldiers saying no to "immoral orders" there is nothing immoral about attacking military targets. Do you think they're being told "be sure to hit every school kid ya can, bonus points for old people"? Cause if that's what you think they're being told to do you are sorely mistaken and hopelessly naive.

edit: D----T MAN! Couldn't you put it all in one post? or edit the original? Cause seee the last one I got was "the truth hurts". >_< rargh now I have to read more!


No one knows me like I do.

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ivan..


ivan..

member
Location: Halifax, NS

Total posts: 165
Posted:every one takes it so very personally eh?

individual A is mad because individual B believes in something that is so very obviously "wrong" ( because it's not what A beleives )

isn't that what wars are about?

there is truth to both sides of the argument the situation in iraq is grim, and the reasons for the attack on iraq is vague ( in reality if not in statement )

americans have to choose sides on the war if they will answer "are you proud to be ......?"

human rights should always be an issue .. no matter what the reason for conflict human rights should be cosidered .. if a tyrant is being tyrannical then the small and weak need to be protected somehow .. problem is bombing the crap out of a city isn't gonna help the poor citizens ...

i don't blame the military for doing their job , hell i don't even blame dubbayou for wanting the oil.. i don't blame canada for doing it's job as a peacekeeper nation .. nor do i toss shit at the britons and australia for posing next to america in the photo of well intending mooks with bats beating up the small and the weak (in the name of freedom ) and it is by no way a curse to be american or canadian or aussie or a limey bastard ...

i'm a little older than a portion of the people on HOP and i hope to get a lot older than i am now .. but a little persepective from the surly side of 30 ... been to a lot of nations dealt with many cultures .. they are all the same .. all have plus sides and negative sides ...

i curse the gov'ment for taxing addictive materials , and for stepping on some civil rights ( not human rights just civil rights canada is pretty good about human rights since my ten toes starting tiptoeing on this green earth) i curse the police for doing their job sometimes and the provincial govment for some silly laws ..

but i realise that my greedy little needs are not the be and end all of the earth.. and i realise that canada is a good nation and a strong nation and if we follow the lead of our gun toting crack selling neighbours to the south .. well we only go so far then we say .. "Nah, you go do that invasion thing we're gonna sail around out her fer a bit " and i'm VERY proud of that...

wow this is a bit too long

i'm proud to be a canadian it allowed me to be the person i am today .. and i would hope that everyone has a little pride in them for who they are and that every one realises that their feedom is given ( as a gift ) by their home ..

for the record .. No army gives me the right to speak freely ..

I TAKE IT!

pax ab bello
( look it up )
Ivan


thats right i look like an albino ape that has had a bad day.. go ahead say something stupid... i dare ya !

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by ivan..:

for the record .. No army gives me the right to speak freely ..

I TAKE IT! Right on.

Maybe bombing military targets is okay but ,hypothetically speaking, would you be able to look at yourself in the mirror knowing that a bomb you just dropped landed on a school instead of the intended target.And don't say it is Saddam's fault for putting the school there.No one is forcing you to drop that bomb.

I just feel that even in measures of force there has got to be another way to deal with Hussein.If we supposedly have the best military in all the land how can you disagree?

[ 21. March 2003, 16:32: Message edited by: poiaholic22 ]


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Aaaaaaand the thread degenerates to name-calling....

Honestly? I've been driven more over to the pro-war side by the peace protesting.

<allows time for audience murmuring to die down>

Those who give information in order to justify the war do so in a manner that's calm and they're trying to make an actual argument with the information they're capable of providing.

Pretty much every anti-war message I've seen amounts to "Bush bad. War wrong no matter how you slice it. Oooh! Excuse to perform newsworthy civil disobedience act!" There's a lot of finger-pointing, a lot of accusation, but it all seems rooted in very simplistic and unrealistic arguments, voiced by people looking for attention. These sorts of things, while getting a message displayed, do more to hurt the credibility of the peace movement than anything else. If I was to get several hundred hairy friends together and stand naked in a "YES TO BUSH" formation I would get laughed at and be seen as an idiot. My cause would be weakened by the fact that it would now be associated mostly with my gigantic manhood flapping in the breeze for the camera crew to catch on tape.

What irks me the most about the pro-vs-anti-war discussions here is that the anti-war group seems to see anyone who doesn't jump on their bandwagon as a barbaric neo-Nazi who enjoys inflicting pain and suffering on others. It's like saying every parent who spanks a child for misbehaving enjoys abusing their child, which we know is not true (unless you're a member of certain liberal activist groups - different discussion entirely).

This group also believes their message is possible under any circumstances. They believe in the supreme duty of one side to back down, regardless of whether the opposing side will follow suit or continue on to crush them into oblivion.

If 3 years ago we had started a war against Osama bin Laden and prevented 9-11 from occurring, we would go through the same anti-war protests, the same bickering back and forth over whether or not it would be justifiable... but in the end we might not have had to endure the tragedy that has changed the way everyone lives their lives. I know a terrorist situation is different from an established dictator in a formal government representing a country, but the rooting in both situations is the same - what could or would happen if we don't do this? I'm certainly not in a position to figure it out, because the information to decide on that is unattainable to me.

If you disagree with me, put yourself in my shoes for a moment. One the one hand, I'm seeing a government, who knows WAY more than I do about the situation, apparently making an informed decision and taking action. On the other hand, I see a group that may or may not be in the majority (all I know at this point is they're much much LOUDER), hurling insults and making up snappy slogans, stopping traffic (Chicago's Lake Shore Drive this very minute is under peacenik seige), and getting out in my face to tell me what a dumb redneck Bush is.

Should I trust a system that has many built-in checks and balances to prevent leadership from doing stupid things? A system that utilizes very high-tech spy equipment and methods (to obtain information I currently have no access to for security reasons), and is bound by its own laws not to pursue a war unless it is absolutely justified? I highly doubt even our own politicians would allow a "dumb redneck with an itchy trigger finger" to trample our dignity as a nation.

Or should I trust the voice that is the one most in my face, telling me how stupid they will consider me if I even think about joining the other team?

Time to go get nekkid I guess...


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Should you trust anybody? Are you saying that are government has this really great track record of telling the truth?

I saw a sign being held by a protester in Times Square on the news and I can't remember exactly what it said but it was totally contradictory of the so called "pro-peace" movement.I agree that there are a lot of people who probably aren't protesting for the right reasons.Although as many dumb@$$ things as the pro-peace side has to say,the pro-war side has as well.Like I can't tell you how many times I have heard the idea of just wiping them all out thrown around in a serious manner."We should just nuke the whole area and be done with it".

Just for the record, I do feel and have felt for a long time that we need to get rid of Saddam.I just can't agree with the way in which we are going about it.If war is the answer why do the people we are supposedly trying to protect have to suffer the same fate as the ruthless dictator that is the root of the problem?


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:quote: Like I can't tell you how many times I have heard the idea of just wiping them all out thrown around in a serious manner."We should just nuke the whole area and be done with it". I think those opinions are definitely in the minority (thankfully!), but yes, there are complete idiots on the pro-war side as well.

I definitely don't think the government is the most open and honest organization in the world. Hehe, quite far from it. But in a situation as serious as going to war, where they will have to justify themselves to the world as well as to history... they know they'd better have a damn good reason and info to back it up when all's said and done, and I don't think an entire body of legislators would allow a gun-totin' zealot to override that policy.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:One thing the media in Australia has remarked on, is the large number of "mum and dad" and "average joe" type people that are making the effort to protest against this war, and with good reasons too. It is an illegal war (don't ask me what a legal war is?) started be an arguably undemocratically elected president. One implication, is that the supposed "liberating" soldiers could be charged with war crime, as could the president; or so it was said on the TV last night.

I object to the hypocrisy shown by our leaders in the invasion of Iraq, and the way Bush has bullied the UN and the world into an unnecessary war. I mean to try and justify the invasion on humanitarian grounds is a blatant lie. The war is about securing oil. America has been dabbling in the politics of the middle-east for a long time now, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they support Saddham and supply him with biological and possibly chemical weapons. Was he not encouraged to bomb the crap out of Iran with said weapons in the hope of sequing oil for America? No humanitarian compassion was shown then. Nor does Bush give a toss about the environmental impact that will be created when the oil fields are destroyed, if his comments on Kyoto are anything to go by.

Saddam is a tyrant, but would not the Iraqi people see the actions of the "axis of the willing" (sic.) as terrorism on a grand scale. There were more appropriate ways to solve this problem, but it's too late now. You can't solve a problem like this with a direct assault; well it's not a long-term solution. I thought this lesson would have been learnt from Vietnam and from 9/11. The repercussions from the invasion will divide the world, and it's only going to lead to more terrorism and violence


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Posted:I just think its funny that the head of the Weapons inspectors; Hans Blix, said today that he had doubts that Iraq had any Weapons of Mass Destruction...

I got that out of todays Metro (Newspaper)

Josh


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Jo


Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:Not too proud to be British really - there is a lot of our culture (drinking, violence, football) that really annoys me.

Only things I'm proud of are the British music scene - extremely varied and sometimes groundbreaking.

And British Rugby. No - make that English rugby.

And real ale.

Jo.


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Traveling Kyri


member


Total posts: 28
Posted:Thx Jo. and guys..... I didn't read all the arguements, but there's a lot of war threads already. Any remote chance we can argue on one of those and try to saev this thread for teh opinions on pride/countries?

Much Love, K.


Situations defined as real are real in their consequences.

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Cassandra


Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !

Total posts: 4224
Posted:For a long time I was VERY critical of my country and really found it hard to respect it...

I first learnt to love it by travelling away...

then I learnt when we had elections where noone voted and we nearly got Le Pen (nazi party pretty much) as a president, that if you do not DO something, you cannot complain about anything ...
I also learnt that the symbols like the national anthem or the French flag have been abandonned by people like me , therefore leaving the entire field free for neo nazis to make it theirs and this is wrong. I see nothing wrong in being a patriot, I do have issues in being a nationalist (NB : I am French, please know that I might be translating French concept into english the wronmg way...)

And so it is like a love relationship : learn to love in being true and being able to critisize in order to make it better, not just for the sake of critisizing.

One of the man I admire most is Michael Moore. He forgives NOTHINg to his own country and will point at every problem without hesitation, but I truely thinks he absolutely LOVES america and is aching to make it a better place.

this is constructive, I love it.

And the recently for the first time I was tem,pted to be quite proud of France standign against war... but it is more complicated than atht and they are not just doing it cause the love peace ... they are doign it also cause the arabic world is a great costumer for out lovely weapons... among otehr reasons of course...

but oh well...

this is a fantastic question mike and it got me thinking a lot... and I shall think even more...

thank you, as always..

shine on
cass


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Proud to be a US citizen?

I suppose so in some ways. However, this often leads to dissapointment, so I try not to get carried away with it.

I don't think pride is particularly useful anyway though.

As Cass sort of said, travelling makes you think of all the good things you took for granted about where you are from.It also reminds me that no matter how much of an oddball/freak I am in the States, I'm still definitely American. I'm not always sure how I feel about that, but then I'm happy to be me, which means I must be happy to be American. Not sure that exactly makes me proud.

Besides, isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins.

As far as being an ambassador, I'm glad to have the chance to tell people about all the wonderful things there are in the States. And there are a LOT of wonderful things there. When someone gives me attitude about the States, I give them attitude about being a mental whore to media influence and stereotypes (except I'm usually a bit more polite than that exact wording). I am not my government, and I'm sorry but it isn't my fault if you watch Jerry Springer, Baywatch, or Dallas to derive your primary opinion of Americans.

You, your country, your world, your life, your whatever is only as much as you make of it. Just do your best to make these things what you think they should be, and no matter who or where you are, you should never have to be ashamed or apologize.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Mele
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

Mele

A perth girl gone walkabout...
Location: Back home in Perth WA, Austral...

Total posts: 396
Posted:I love Australia.

I love the people, the places, the space, the lifestyle.



Maybe i love Australia because i was born here, and grew up here, and ultimatly belong here. And apart from a few mistakes, i don't believe we have too much, as a nation, to be embarrassed about, and a lot more to be proud of.



We are a young nation, (216 years old now isn't it?), small in population and military might, but large in land and resources. We aquit ourselves well in sporting events, we support our larger global neighbours, large and small and hold to our alliances even when they get us into trouble (from Gallipoli to Iraq - We put our boys on the line for other nations), and we have freedoms that many places in the world do not.

While we may in many ways be percieved as "backward" or "provincial" we are growing as a nation, and while travelling, i never feel embarrassed to come forward and say "I'm an aussie, and i live in the best place on earth".



From what i've seen travelling, Australians are known as hard workers, hard players and all round friendly welcoming people - Now that is something that i'm proud to be. smile


I smile because i have no idea whats going on!! biggrin

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gita
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

gita

.:*distracted by shiny things*:.
Location: brizvegas, Australia

Total posts: 3776
Posted:wow, this is an old thread!! i've never even read this one!! good on you mele for bringing it back!! clap

ages ago in this thread - pele said - Mel Gibson, by Australians is concidered an American, even though he spent a good share of his life there.

not sure if anyone else said this (cos i didn't read the rest of the thread!! i'm too lazy!) but most aussies consider mel an aussie too!! hell, we've even claimed russel crowe! he's a kiwi!! it would seem that anyone who was born here or spent a few years here is claimed as aussie!! ubblol

but as for the whole 'proud of your country' thing...well...i love australia. i love the people & our way of life.

our government & even the system it's based on is quite flawed, but unfortunately there isn't much we can do about it! we tried that back in 99 with the republic referrendum, but that failed! dang rigged question!! it was phrased so that it would be an unacceptable republic. but thats enough howard bashing!! biggrin

aussies rock! (in my humble opinion!) i was talking to a woman in the uk last week (at work) and cos i'm oz i kept saying 'no worries'. she goes 'why do you keep saying no worries? i'm not worried!!' i laughed & explained that it just means 'ok'. she then asked why i didn't just say 'ok' - my answer?? 'cos i'm australian'!! ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol


do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good to eat!

if at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished!

smile! grin it confuses people!

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wouac
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

wouac

Poi-tato
Location: Iceberg 319, Canada

Total posts: 183
Posted:proud pisk im not proud to be from my country nor would i be proud to be from any other country my views are my own not my nations as for being shamefull to belong to the human race not at all im shamefull to be a part of the human race that evolved after the agrivcultural revolution the part of us thats slowly killing the planet but im damn proud that aborignal tribes have managed to exist while we persistantly try to obliterate them they are the true human race

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potato's.

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Mele
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

Mele

A perth girl gone walkabout...
Location: Back home in Perth WA, Austral...

Total posts: 396
Posted:Written by: margita

wow, this is an old thread!! i've never even read this one!! good on you mele for bringing it back!! clap



No worries Mate ubblol ubblol ubblol

Not even quite sure how i found it.... think i clicked on completly the wrong page when i was looking for something rolleyes


I smile because i have no idea whats going on!! biggrin

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

Total posts: 3415
Posted:and we've given will smith honoray aussie membership. saw that on sunrise the other day. he seemed quite happy with it.

i like australia. i like living here, i like the people, i like the towns, the cities, the wide open areas of nothing. ok, maybe not the deserts so much, but i like the place. proud of it? you bet i am. im proud to be associated with a country that has always helped out those we're allied with, a country that has one of the best reputations in the world, a country full of hard working, hard playing, and hard partying people. a people who are known for their laid back attitude.

a good people smile


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Gelfling
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

Gelfling

Watcher of 80s cartoons
Location: Chepstow & Bristol, United Kin...

Total posts: 665
Posted:I'm proud to be me. And of my upbringing. And of the opportunities provided by the UK. But at what cost have these opportunities arisen? Centuries of devious foreign negotiations and when our ancestors couldn't blag stuff they pillaged the way any military superior would. Ashamed of the past, yes. Optimistic of the future, yes. And at a half way point in the present. Ill see what happens with Sudan and then I'll judge the morality of my country. Whatever I feel, pride or shame, I am not going to be a bystander. To watch a person get beaten up without doing anything about it is as bad as beating the person up. So I'll become a teacher and try and be a positive role model, influencing the voice of the future. That may sound arrogant, but time will tell if I'm arrogant or justifiably confident - not for me to say one way or tother.

>What do you think about the state of the Earth?
>I'm optimistic.
>So why do you look so sad?
>I'm not sure that my optimism is justified.

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:I'm very proud to be Irish, and I love my country. I could never imagine being ashamed of who/what I am. This country is part of my identity, part of my soul.

Of course there are things our government does which really piss me off, or sadden me somewhat. But at the end of the day, I'm not solely responsible for the actions of our government. I DO vote, I did NOT vote for the current administration. I'm actively involved with the Irish Anti-War Movement, so at least I'm taking some form of a stand against them for what I believe in. It's far too easy to be an armchair revolutionary.

I lived in Holland for almost 9 years during my twenties, and I guess that helped me to appreciate home just a little more.

I don't mean to sound conceited, but I love that Irish people are well liked and have a great (if a little crazy) reputation everywhere we go in the world.

All you have to do is go to any major city in the world (and yes, there's even one in Kabul, Afghanistan!) and count the amount of Irish pubs. And I'll bet the majority of them are the best bars in town too.

Take our national holiday, St Patrick's Day. It's celebrated almost everywhere in the world. And on the 17th of March EVERYONE wants to be Irish, and are all too eager proudly boast their Irish ancestry.

We're really only a blip on the map, with barely 4 million inhabitants, but we seem to have done ok so far.

& I love the mythic & mystical resonance of the country's landscape, from the rolling gentle hills & beaches in the east, to the wild & rugged mountains & cliffs in the west.......

and I love this poem:

Mise ire

Mise ire: Sine m n an Chailleach Bharra
Mr mo ghlir: M a rug C Chulainn crga.
Mr mo nir: Mo chlann fin a dhol a mthair.
Mise ire: Uaign m n an Chailleach Bharra.

Pdraic Pearse

(I am Ireland
I am Ireland: I am older than the Old Woman of Beare.
Great my glory: I that bore Cuchulainn the valiant.
Great my shame: My own children that sold their mother.
I am Ireland: I am lonelier than the Old Woman of Beare.)


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:I don't have or not have pride in my country. I feel sorrow for the bad things and happy about the good things.
I don't feel responsibility to appologise for the things people from my country have done as they were out of my control the same as I don't take praise for the good things out of my control.

I'm proud to be me, I present myself as a representative of me, not England no matter where I am in the world. I don't really beleive in nationalism or globalisation; just that we're people, we're individuals, we make mistakes and we have acheivements.

IMO Anyone who feels they have to appologise for anything their home country ruling power has done beyond their own personal control, that they didn't support nor challenge is a fool to themselves.

And of those who do feel the responsibility, why would they feel any more shame or pride regardless of what country they're in? We should have the same respect for all humans no matter where they are and where we are.


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Well - I certainly am not proud of Australia's military participation in *anything* recently cuz its all been based on bullsh*t. I see australian Politics as extremely unrepresentitive and backward, although at least we have compulsory voting, thankyou the federation fathers, at least someone was thinking back then smile

Ive travelled a lot and seen it from the outside; Weve got some beautiful landscape, and some good natural resources (which we feel must be logged or mined or dammed ASAP to feed overseas buyers, who are probly getting it at a steal anyhow *cough* Free Trade Agreement *cough*) Our largest river system is dying while we grow cotton and rice in one of the most arid countries in the world.

Look what we are doing to our refugees. Our camps have been condemned by the UN, Greenpeace and Amnesty International while our wanker of a PM tells em all to keep their noses out of it.

Yeah we stand up for our neighbours as long as they give us an unfair share of their oil (East Timor).

yeah ok fair - I protested and voted against the current govt in the previous election, and am active in human rights causes, so I guess 'democracy' has spoken against me. but what makes me angry is the level of ignorance and apathy demonstrated to me by the U beaut aussies I meet all the time. You know what guys? Australia is much closer to the US in mindset than it is to the UK. If your happy with that road then Yeehaa!! Im not.

Josh

PS how can you say that australia is the best place in the world if you have never seen anywhere else? How Arrogant is that?

PPS This is not directed at anyone in this thread, this is something i've observed for AGES while travelling and while at home.


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Mele
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

Mele

A perth girl gone walkabout...
Location: Back home in Perth WA, Austral...

Total posts: 396
Posted:Written by: Josh


PS how can you say that australia is the best place in the world if you have never seen anywhere else? How Arrogant is that?

PPS This is not directed at anyone in this thread, this is something i've observed for AGES while travelling and while at home.



I know, its not directed at me, but i personally believe Australia is the best place in the world because, for me, it is, and always will be, home.
And i have travelled to other countries, and am travelling to lots more in the very near future, and so have seen whats out there and will see alot more, and i do read current events, and do talk to travellers, about their homes and experiances and what they think of their country and have a curiousity of how the other half lives, and I certainly believe we have it alot better off than most other places and am happy to be Australian.
(Even if a minority are making bad decisions, but i don't wish to get into political debates)

Oh, and nobody has to agree with me, this is just my opinion, and is what i personally feel about my country. Its a beautiful country, full of beautiful people. ubblove


I smile because i have no idea whats going on!! biggrin

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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:
i am a american but i am ashemed of my country.
i am proud of my haritage of bieng a american indian. but right know i want to leave the land of my grandfathers.
i am sick of bieng led by fools!!!


SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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Bender_the_Offender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

Bender_the_Offender

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:I am proud to be me.
particularly when i have pants on.


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:I think our nation has cause for shame right now. Our president is an idiot, we're treating our decent soldiers like [censored], and our INdecent soldiers are behaving like the worst sort of jackbooted thugs, which endangers our decent soldiers further (even if you left out every moral consideration, surely THAT is cause for alarm).

I don't fly an American flag. If I did, I would furl it (a way of showing that the unit - or in this case, entire nation - is in disgrace). We are and will be in disgrace until the ringleaders, and their bosses as high up the chain as it goes, are brought to justice for the crimes in Abu Ghraib. Actually I think our idiot pResident should be in prison, but I want to unfurl the flag sometime before the moon falls, so...


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Oh, wow, autocensor. I'll remember. Sorry about that.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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