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Forums > Social Chat > JUDGEMENT DAY, for religion

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think even the most religious of us would admit that a great deal of evil has been done in the name of religion, examples being the big witch hunts of centuries past, the missionary conversions of primitive tribes, the crusades, protestant/catholic violence in N. Ireland etc.

Countering this is the peace that faith brings to many and the compassion to others that lies at the heart of the teachings, which leads to much organised charity work.

So the question for the poll is, in your opinion, has humanity benefitted from the existence of religion, or would it have been better off without it?

By religion I'm mainly referring to Christianity, Judaism, Muslim and similar types i.e. One God with a plan for mankind, as opposed to Buddhism which differs in many respects e.g. having no deity.

Please note that I've not dissed religion nor defended it, just asked a simple question.

It'd be great if any discussion on the subject could be calm, well thought out and polite rather than becoming the usual HOP war zone that generally ensues when religion is mentioned.

In the spirit of it being a poll, a simple 'yes, it has been beneficial overall' or 'no, it has done more harm than good' would be sufficient and would give a clear idea of the consensus view.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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kristiboy
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

member
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 23
Posted:In my opinion intelligent free thinking man should have rejected superstitious belief in fictitious deity and worshiped the infinate potential of humankind. So basically my answer is...we would have been better off with out it.

If you talk you can sing. If you walk you can dance.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Thats an awfull complex question for a yes/no answer, shure religions have been responsible for a lot of terrible things, and have operated for the main part as power structures. but then we might aswell take them in terms of power structures and ask about things like law keeping and so on. Also Religion has been responsible for the preservationand aquisition of knowledge, the promotion of litteracy and ideas of 'fairness'.

The real thing is that religions are just an outgrowth of being human, to say that its good or bad is rediculous, we are falling into the principal trap of organised religion by doing so. Would the world be better without them? no, the world would be compleatly diffrent, whats 'better'?

silly question if you ask me. a better one might be 'does religion have a continuing place in the modern world? and if so, what sort?'

T

p.s. see, well thought out and attacking!


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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SlightlySinged
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

member
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 82
Posted:Oh, wait, Religion is responsible for Fairness? I'm not sure I agree with that statement at all. You're saying human's never had the concept of fairness before religion?

It's a very tough question, since Religion has had such a massive influence in where we are today. It is complete speculation as to where we would be today without religion. I will say, though, that in my opinion, we have outgrown religion and no longer have a need for it. It is time for us to develop ourselves using our own strenghts without pretending to rely on some diety. My opinion only


I do poi nearly every day. But it's not like I'm addicted or anything. I mean, sure, I am always conscious of exactly where my poi are at all times, but I'm not obsessed. um.. Anyone have the number for Poi-ers Anon?

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:im looking forward to judgement day... then we can PROVE that God rides a unicycle

sorry.... i promise not to post any more stupid comments in this serious thread... i just had to say it.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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firedancingfairy


enthusiast
Location: Australia

Total posts: 201
Posted:Has humanity benefitted from religion...



Religion to me is a sanctury of reflection which makes the big things in life make sense... death, love, loss... And I think that religion has played a vital role in helping people make sense of these overwhelming illusionary life dramas that get thrown our way.

On a global scale, I think because we are HUMAN and we cannot be perfect in an imperfect world, the people who are playing the evil roles in this life are going to take the sacred things like religion and turn them into an excuse for murder. Thats the way the world has headed over the past decades... and I believe that we shouldn't be angry at these people. Or pity them! "POOR them is to POUR negativity on them and drown them in their sorrows"

Everything has a way of going too far... there are extremists in most situations.

Be thankful everyday that we are not in poverty, or starving, or suffering from all kinds of diseases with no medical support. Be grateful that we have the freedom to go outside without fear of being gunned down, and the safe surroundings to go and rejoice in the wonder of our luscious creation. We can spin fire and have fun... we can choose happiness over sorrow! Each second we are given a blank canvas of life... it's up to us with what hues we paint it.



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firedancingfairy


enthusiast
Location: Australia

Total posts: 201
Posted:Oh, and Dentrassi...

OF COURSE GOD RIDES A UNI-CYCLE!

Hehehehehehe


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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:I think a lot of religion is set up as another way for people to control others, it's another justification for people to do what they want. Granted there have been other reasons of a political or social nature, throughout history.

IMHO, the best thing to come out of religion is the music...

On another note, I don't know about the whole God/Unicycle thing...But I've been told Jesus rode a Harley Davidson


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"

Total posts: 6207
Posted:ok so i have two ppoint sto make

1) "if god didnt exist society would feel the need to create one" - voltare

2)religion stood in the way of medical progress, and evolution

so i rekon religion is a nessectity, but one with flaws, nothing is perfect, nothing is easy, religion is one of those harder things, do you belive, dont you?

Later days

i know this is no real answer so im sorry!


Step (el-nombrie)

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay

Total posts: 1107
Posted:This thread is opening a can of worms!

Some of my favourite places are the mediaevil cathedrals, built for no other reason than to give glory to God. Anything that inspires such wonderful feats is a good thing.

Mankind being as we are, in the absense of religion to have wars over, we would have just found something else.

"My cave is made of limestone. It's better than your sandstone."
"No it isn't."
*stab, bash, crunch* etc.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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rajiv_sinhain


member
Location: india

Total posts: 18
Posted:BEHIND THE MASK OF RELIGION LIES THE GAYS,, THE LESBIANS, AND THE TERRORISTS,, THE REAL FACE OF TODAYS RELIGION

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Hmmmmm, interesting concept. I was under the impression that homosexuality was disliked, if not vilified, by a great number of the major religons.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:wow! to think the Pope has been a lesbian terrorist all this time.... i never knew...

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:I'd say no... it's not done good and we'd have been better off without it.

The trouble with all the monotheistic religions is that they're focused on the idea that THEY are right, their god is the ONLY god

how could they ever compromise or accept other's beliefs or lack thereof? it's totally against what they believe in.

polytheism/atheism allow for more variation, and consideration of others whose beliefs might not be so simplified.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Magnus


member
Location: Bath, UK

Total posts: 279
Posted:I think Religion has overall, had a positive and NECESSARY impact on the world.

Part of being human seems to involve trying every possible incorrect, dangerous and deadly route before finding the right one.

Religions HAD to come about, simply because we didn't know any better. Every viewpoint is subjective, but over time all subjective viewpoints tend towards the objective truth.

Whether or not we will reach it before the world ends is another matter. Perhaps the very act of reaching it will end this plane of existence, which DEPENDS on blindness to the spiritual truth of our being.

But look at what's (slowly) happening, most people have correctly disassociated the acts of Osama bin Laden from Islam. Many people have become non-religious, but are still looking for spiritual truths. Religious people are working to understand each other.

I don't believe we'll end up with one religion, but rather that people won't be expected to have a 'religion', but rather it will be encouraged and expected that people explore their spiritual side with whatever paradigm they feel is right.

Boils down to whether you think people are basically evil or basically good. When people feel threatened they'll use anything, including religion, to justify their wrongdoings. That's human nature.


Magnus... pay it forward

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Narr


Narr

(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
Location: sitting on the step

Total posts: 2568
Posted:now i have to say i've had a huge chip on my shoulder towards christianity for a good portion of my life.. and not totally sure where it stems from ..maybe its because from a very young age i was stuck in religious ed having my treacher yap on and reading bible storys that i just didnt believe or relate to. or that it had contributed to reasons for war or that when say england 'conquered' somewhere they sent in missionarys to convert the natives. i know now that this counts for many other religions but i was a kid before anyone gets irate and starts shouting.
but just recently i read something, well this actually:

The Art of Happiness - Dalai Lama & Howard Cutler

'In this world there are so many different people, so many different dispositions. ..i believe that each individual should embark upon a spiritual path that best suited to hs or her mental disposition, natural inclination, temperment, belief, family and cultural background.... the purpose of religion is to benefit people, and i think if we had only one religion, after a while it would cease to benefit many people...religions are meant to nourish the human spirit. And i think that we can learn to celebrate and develope a deep appreciation of that diversity in religions. so certain people may findJudaism, the Christian traditions, Islamic traditions to be most effective for them. therefore we must respect and appreciate the value of all the different world religious traditions. All of these religions can make an effective contribution for the benefit of humanity. they are all designed to make the individual a happier person, and the world a better place.'

so in answer to your question yes i think religion is a good thing ..unfortunatly there are people out there who twist the word of these holy books, giving that religion a bad name. there is also alot of ignorance towards a religion other than the religion that person chooses to practice.( i already showed this at the begining of my post) i think religious education should be taught, but not just the one it should cover all religions so that we all have a better understanding of eachother.



she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*

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Jello


ambiguous
Location: Mpls, MN, USA

Total posts: 646
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Eera:


Mankind being as we are, in the absense of religion to have wars over, we would have just found something else.

My thoughts exactly. People use and manipulate religion for their own person gains. Things like greed and hate have always been expressed through religion, if religion wasn't there such things still would have surfaced.


_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Has mankind benefitted from Religion?
On a small scale - Yes
On a grand scale - Including various Genocide acts, persicution murder and penalisation(spelling?) of individuals in "the Name of God" deffinately, whole heartedly

NO


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:First off, you are playing with some serius fire here. I mean no pun, but this thread has the potential for some serius problems.

How can you say that life would be better off without religion? Man has never lived without religion. When you think about it, most laws are based off of religion.

Try to think about the implications of not having something to believe in.


hehe Dentrassi if God does ride a unicycle, think of all the cool tricks he could throw!


I am just going to ignore what the rest of you said, both the ones I agree with and those that I dont. I think it would just be wise. Though you really shouldnt discriminate against some religions just because they have no specific or have mulitple dieties.

If you want to ask if man has benifited from religion, you should include all religions Wicca Christianity, Moormons, Islam, Buhdisim, Devil Worship, Catholicisim, Tribals (what ever religion specific tribes have), Greek, Roman, Judaism, and the list could go on.

In all honesty, I feel that no matter what people believe in, it is good to believe in something.

It gives people a sence of direction. Even though I may not agree with what they believe in or the direction they are heading. Mankind needs to believe in something.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Magnus


member
Location: Bath, UK

Total posts: 279
Posted:Custom Bug, I rather see that the other way round...

On a small scale; No. Poor bugg*rs not feeling able to have sex before marriage. Young boys having bits of their penis chopped off needlessly. Young girls having far worse done. People being killed in the name of God.

On a large scale; Yes. Oppression of free thought, control of the populace and more death and destruction than any other reason, that has ultimately left us valuing religious freedom and democracy more than we would have otherwise.


Magnus... pay it forward

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cK
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

member
Location: sydney

Total posts: 19
Posted:It's odd to see so many people here against religion, because of what its done for/against the world.

it's odder to think that some of the worst atrocities had nothing to do with religion.. they were human ideals, trying to be brought to fruition (think Nazism, Communism etc) (and I'm not whaling upon communism as an idea of government, i mean the failed attempt by USSR to make it happen that ruined millions)

It therefore follows that its incredibly Odd that people seem to think that the world would have been better off without religion, especially in view of so much evidence that the "some" God must exist. (I personally am quite a christian).

You are talking about organised religion. I think it would be impossible to have this world, and to have humans in the world without religion forming. but at the base of it all organised religion comes down to worshipping and glorifying the creator of humanity. It would be strange to me to think that the world would be better off without this.. because then it would mean we would be better off without a God..

which would mean we would never have existed...


You love the middle ages, Don't you?Sir, Yes Sir!!The concept of a Geocentric universe gets you sexually excited, Doesn't it?Sir, Yes Sir!!You want to make 16th century mathematician Johannes Kepler your bitch, Don't you?Sir, Yes Sir!!

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:It therefore follows that its incredibly Odd that people seem to think that the world would have been better off without religion, especially in view of so much evidence that the "some" God must exist.I think it best we continue this thread without discussing whether or not 'god' exists tbh... there is no evidence so we can all bleat on all day without getting anywhere.

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:I am going out on the limb here but I think frosty has full use of his eyes. Hey man, look out your stinking window the proof God exists is all around you!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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cK
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

member
Location: sydney

Total posts: 19
Posted:I think the question of whether God exists is actually a massive part of the question originally asked.

If God exists: then of course the world is better off with religion.

If God doesn't exist: why the heck are so many people deluded, and of couse the world would be better off without it.. In fact you could probably theorise they would never have invented it.


You love the middle ages, Don't you?Sir, Yes Sir!!The concept of a Geocentric universe gets you sexually excited, Doesn't it?Sir, Yes Sir!!You want to make 16th century mathematician Johannes Kepler your bitch, Don't you?Sir, Yes Sir!!

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Abridged version:
Spirituality good, Religion not quite as good but still beneficial.

Full version:
Having something to believe in, as Ray put it quite nicely, is very important and almost crucial to human existence. We strive to follow values that perpetuate the species, promote peace and understanding, and help us to live lives that are both enriched and enrich others. Belief gives us hope that, while our actions may not have an immediate positive result, we will be enriched down the line and should still continue to act positively. By this token, spirituality has been a very beneficial element to humanity, in the past, present, and undoubtedly the future.

Religion is the organization of those beliefs on a mass scale. What results is segregation of the believers into factions (denominations, or in some cases also labeled as cults), with each believing theirs is the correct system to follow. For one option to be correct, the other option(s) must be incorrect, for that is the basis of comparison. This is where the trouble starts and conflict erupts (even in the cases where the parties agree on many core values and ideals). The belief system, when entered into this equation, produces an almost fanatical urge to defend one's beliefs ("religious fervor" - and honestly, who wouldn't defend beliefs they hold so strongly with an equally strong enthusiasm?) and the disagreements can escalate to the wars and crimes we see committed today.

That having been said, I also believe there is a definite place for religions in society. Multiple denominations are made available to those seeking spiritual guidance and knowledge, and people are able to learn while simultaneously choosing their own "flavor," as it were. A group might not entirely follow what one believes, but if they come as close as is necessary to make you feel like you belong, then it provides a comfortable opportunity to learn and share spiritual knowledge and ideas with others. Sure we hear about extremist leaders manipulating their flock to commit acts against other groups, etc, but those instances are far in the minority. Religion is like a sports team - you can't just play with a ball alone and expect to develop your abilities, you have to work with others to elevate your understanding of the game. It's just the responsibility of a good captain to instill the values of sportsmanship into the players so that their interactions with other teams are mutually beneficial, or at the very least, polite and courteous.

Just remember, on the news you don't hear about the average players who all follow the rules and play the game with sportsmanship and enthusiasm, you hear about the bad boy player punching out the referee - Don't let that fool ya!

I believe that everyone, no matter what denomination they ascribe themselves to, holds their own, differing beliefs and that if it came right down to it, no two people agree 100% on everything spiritual. What matters most is that YOU follow YOUR beliefs and not let someone else tell you what to believe in. Listening to that little voice in your head is the best bet, I think, but having a group to share and grow with is definitely a plus since humans are social animals and when we come together we are way more than the sum of our parts.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Eera:


Mankind being as we are, in the absense of religion to have wars over, we would have just found something else.

quote:Originally posted by Jello:
My thoughts exactly. People use and manipulate religion for their own person gains. Things like greed and hate have always been expressed through religion, if religion wasn't there such things still would have surfaced. Good point. It's interesting to ponder over whether humanity needs conflict and religion is just an excuse for it. Also to ask what it is about religion that makes it so ideal for warring about.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:


How can you say that life would be better off without religion? Man has never lived without religion. When you think about it, most laws are based off of religion...
Mankind has never lived without drug use, that doesn't stop us hypothesisng that it would be better without them.

Also, whilst I'm not condoning the laws created by non religious communist regimes, they do show that laws can be created without religious basis.
quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

...If you want to ask if man has benifited from religion, you should include all religions Wicca Christianity, Moormons, Islam, Buhdisim, Devil Worship, Catholicisim, Tribals (what ever religion specific tribes have), Greek, Roman, Judaism, and the list could go on.

Fair point; Firstly I assumed that mormom, catholic, russian orthodox etc would be included in the 'one god with a plan for humanity' criteria.

I thought it best to not include buddhism on the grounds that it is very different i.e. no deity. Paganism and naturalistic faiths I thought should not be incuded as they are in many respects in disagreement with the large scale organised reigions.

What I'm saying is that there are negatives to both possible approaches, so I made a decision and explained it very clearly in the first post to ensure that confusion didn't arise.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Aalathea
GOLD Member since Oct 2002

member
Location: Massachusetts, US

Total posts: 80
Posted:I think there is nothing wrong with religion, but it is the dogmatism that usually comes with organizations acruing power that has caused so many problems. Its more humans desire for power and removal from the reasons why they want religion in the first place.
I know religion helps me, even though i can't yet formulate exactly what i believe. I think maybe the root of these problems came form the idea that god is infallable. because you don't get the same kind of actions amongst polytheistic peoples on the whole (not to say they is none of that, but you know what i mean).
so maybe its the infatuation with the concept of an ultimate truth that has harmed men the most.
I just think that religion is great, but when you make a corporation out of it that usually defeats the purpose and becomes very problematic.

or maybe i'm talking out of my arse.


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:nah not out of your arse

quote:Also to ask what it is about religion that makes it so ideal for warring about.You can see it happening on certain threads

The trouble with religion is that it's based on belief in things which cannot be proven. All religions are, if not almost all spirituality.

Hence person A can Never offer proof to person B, or vice versa - they are never going to agree on their beliefs

Now that's all good and fine in a one to one or debate type situation, but then put a mob into the equation and we know what they can do

Israel a couple of years ago both sides deified and considered holy the suicide bombers and terrorists which attacked the other side... both thought they were doing god's work. With noone with anything provable either way.... well. Look where we are

The only thing that can be agreed upon is that we're all trying to get along and make life good - and if people would stop there and keep their beliefs to themselves then all would be fine!


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:I couldn't be bothered to read most of this thread.

my thoughts are that ive met very few people who don't worship something or other. It seems in our society we have several religions all working together. The cult of money, the self etc..

I think it's just a fact of life. Ive yet to find any society that doesn't have some form of religion. As "advanced" as we are supposed to be we put an awful lot of faith in silly things. Like money, which doesn't even represent real goods anymore and is more precarious then most of the other elements in our life.

It also seems if you eliminate these things, new things to worship pop up or the old ones eventually come back. It's like that game where you smash the little animals skulls with a mallet.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Astar:
I couldn't be bothered to read most of this thread.
That's the spirit Astar!
quote:Originally posted by Astar:

...It's like that game where you smash the little animals skulls with a mallet. It is, isn't it?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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