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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I've started to notice a new trend, at least in america. People are starting to tell their children (and aquantinces, whatever) that there is nothing wrong with homosexuals. They are regular human beings, should be treated like it, and deserve all (well, ok, most) of the rights of a normal human being. Their (children, friends) should treat homosexuals as such.

But said (child/friend/aquantince) should not be a homosexual themselves, b/c it is not ok for them to be homosexual, just, "other people."

Anyone else seeing this? What do you think?

At the very least, I've noticed that it means the kids are still afraid of their own desires.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:I would like to hear why they say that is okay for there to be a gay priest, honestly I dont have an answer.Because some people question the bible rather than just taking the New Easily Understood Pre Interpreted International Version?

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Are you just trying to provoke me? Or do you have a reson for your questions?

Actually I feel this "church" has been misled somewhere. It is not a rare occourance, hell people have even claimed to be Jesus and duped whole communities.


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:i would guess the reason that the episcopal church thinks its okay to have a gay *bishop* (bit higher up than just a priest i think) is for the same reason that the church of england has female vicars.
comparing them to a cult is laughable ray - they are a recognised religion and i can't see someone came along to the convention claiming to be jesus, went up to the head of the church and said 'hey, i'm the saviour and by the way having gay bishops is cool'.
they have rationally thought for themselves rather than blindly bowing to the whim of an old man in italy.

blind faith in god i respect with all my heart.
blind faith in 'the church' or any other largely extended set of 'beliefs' (the inverted commas are because a belief in this sense of it is fairly loose - the beliefs of the church change on a fairly regular basis) i abhore.

anyway, i did read your excerpt from corinthians but i ignored it as frankly a lot of what is said in that chapter is ignored by the church nowdays anyway (drunkards are sinners? do they not give alcoholic wine at communion?).
i mean come on, just 8 verses later is 1cor 6.18:
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."

so heterosexuals are just as much sinners as homosexuals, according to paul the apostle.

not according to god - paul said it.

and to be honest, this is a major problem i have with the bible and those who have blind faith in it - blind faith in god i can understand but blind faith in a text written by men about what they think god wants is (imo) lazy and to a large extent submissive.

this however really helped me understand your viewpoint:

quote: I dont agree with Islam but why should someone be persicuted because of their religion? I dont agree with homosexuality but why should someone be persicuted just because of their sexual preferance? your religion (aka. your set of moral beliefs) says its wrong but since it is not for you to judge others, then you treat everyone as equals and leave the task of judgement to god?
i kinda get that.
that sounds like any belief of a religious nature - like a jewish friend of mine would believe eating pork will mean that you will be in big trouble upon the day of your judgement but he wouldn't go round telling us we're all damned and that i'm a dirty sinner while i'm tucking into my bacon sandwich.

it applies to all facets of organised religion but taking the example of the choice of the episcopal church and your opinion of why they made their recent decision, i only really have one outstanding question:

how do you decide whether it is the episcopal church that has been 'misled' or if it is you that is being misled...?
do you question the teachings of your religion (especially the ones that are obviously ambiguous) for yourself or do you rely on scholars and the gentlemen in rome to decide what you should believe on *all* moral matters?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Hehe, once again you either didnt read or didnt read all the way through, or your just flat out speculating and trying to put words in my mouth.

Umm drunkerds and wine in church.

1, I have never gotten wine in church, it was always Welches grape juice (I guess my church got a deal on it or something cause it always was Welches... anyway)

2, The size of the cups given at communion would have trouble getting a month old drunk!


What is a church? Ask yourself that, then come speek to me about blindly following a church.

My definition of a church, it is the body of Christ, it isnt something you can blindly follow.

I dont believe in a church, the Church... thats another matter. The leader of that church is Jesus and no other.

I never said hetrosexuals are free from sin, you dont have to be gay to be a sinner, just human. Like I said before, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Your right though, paul said everything in that book, it was actually a letter.

The Bible is a book penned by man but inspired by God. Think of it as the inker on a comic strip, the artist (God) draws everything out, and makes it clear what is what and what goes where. The inker (man) simply takes what the artist has done and puts it into an easy to follow form. He doesnt change anything, he doesnt alter the meaning of the story, he just inks.

In order to answer your last question, I would need to know why the episcaple church thought it okay to have a gay bishop. I would need to know what, if any, Biblical referance they used.

If they used no Biblical referance then they are indeed misled, if they did have a Biblical referance (and I 100% doubt that they did) then it would require carefull scrutany to determine if they truly read and took what they read in context.


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:He doesnt change anything, he doesnt alter the meaning of the story, he just inks.And pretty much there your argument ends mate.

Every single bible scholar will tell you about how much the text has been altered through it's many translations and versions and how many different interpretations came out

Including some violently different ones.

If your understanding of your own religion and religious texts is so limited - yet you are willing to believe people are damnned to hell by it's words - then er...

there ain't much to say. cept i'm sorry and I hope you get better soon.


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:okay, so you don't generally get drunk at communion but according to catholic doctrine, drinking to get drunk is okay nowdays.
as is post-marital sex.
even though the bible clearly states (and far more clearly and often than it ever mentions homosexuality) that both of these are sins upon commital of which will preclude you from joining the kingdom of heaven.

homosexuality it seems is a far lesser sin than most things christians do on a regular basis.

as far as the responsibility for the bible goes, personally i see god as the inspiration for the story, the original men that wrote the bible as the artists and the modern day translators and scholars as the inkers.

and i think my last question stands independently of the episcopal church's ruling:

do you ever question the teachings of your religion (especially the ones that are obviously ambiguous) for yourself or do you rely on scholars and the gentlemen in rome (effectively the inkers and the colourists) to decide what you should believe on *all* moral matters?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Wow, you must know everything about everything!

I mean I know a few proffesors at Oazark Christian College, and not one of them seem to share your opinion.

Now granted one inker may colour something green while another colours it blue, however the story and the meat of the original piece is uneffected.

When you think of Christianity is that all you think of... hell?


Umm I'm not Catholic and really and there are some aspects of that religion that I dont agree with either, mainly their hirachy but thats another debate.

I was tought that only post-marital sex was okay, that is if you mean by post-marital as in the time after you say your vows and not after you get a diviorce. Pre-marital sex is what I was taught, the sin.

Drinking to excess, well... I'm not innocent of it, but you are missing out on a key point, EVERY SIN will keep you from the Kingdom of God, no matter where man places it on a scale, God sees sin, you go to hell. Cotten dry, either you are free from sin, or you burn.

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... For the wadges of sin is death, but the true gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord... If we repent of our sins, God is faithfull and just and forgive us of all unrightchusness.

Those are the three things that you must understand if you are to believe.

Jeffory Dommer, mass murderer, repented of his sins and asked God to forgive him shortly before he was exicuted. If he was sincer then he is in heaven if not... well then he is in hell.


Your opinion of what is "obviously ambiguous" and mine might be two different things. Yes I do question things. However I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.

Nobody in Rome has ever dictated what I believe. I'll eat meat when I choose, pray when I choose, I dont need an old fart in a wierd hat to pray for me. I do not have to pray x number of times to be forgiven.


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:You asked:
quote:When you think of Christianity is that all you think of... hell?and then you said the answer yourself:

quote:EVERY SIN will keep you from the Kingdom of God, no matter where man places it on a scale, God sees sin, you go to hell. Cotten dry, either you are free from sin, or you burn.No - i'm free to do as I wish. I do not have to apologise or beg forgiveness from anyone for living.

This is the core of the new homophobia

"It's ok, you can be forgiven" is a million miles different from just "It's OK"

You're touting the equivalent of asking black men to paint themselves white - just not to offend the neighbours.


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:quote:Wow, you must know everything about everything! well done ray for keeping up this sensible, reasoned debate with no emotion or personal jibes. its going well mate
if you know religious scholars that disagree with my points then i will happily concede.
i thought drinking was okay for christians but i stand corrected.

again i will ask my question as it remains unanswered:

my comment about rome was trying to express the fact that the the bible cannot be followed word for word.
if you don't take cue's from christian scholars (the most esteemed of which reside in rome) how do you personally decide which bits are okay to ignore and which bits are not?

i think you make my point for me on homosexuality and sinning:

quote:If I am right, and I do believe I am, just dont come up to me and expect pitty when your standing there waiting on your judgment. quote: Drinking to excess, well... I'm not innocent of it, but you are missing out on a key point, EVERY SIN will keep you from the Kingdom of God, no matter where man places it on a scale, God sees sin, you go to hell. how could you possibly pity a gay man on his judgement when according to your own reasoning of the nature of god, you will be standing right next to him, accused of sins that are equal in the eyes of god?

quote:I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.i think the basis of your pity is more than just the fact that what they are doing is a sin according to the holy bible. if thats all it was, you could compare being gay to getting drunk or any sin other but you do not have the blanket view of sin that you claim god does - you compare being gay to committing rape, murder or theft.
these are sins covered by the ten commandments (rape is the most extreme form of coveting) but being gay wasn't on moses' tablet was it...?
still, independently of what is written in the bible, you consider it an equally contemptable sin.

i think from this that it is clear that the root of your opinions on homosexuality are not based purely on what the bible teaches.

you *personally* consider homosexuality a sin analogous to murder and i think you'd be hard pushed to present that as anything but a form of homophobia.

all other readers please now refer to the starting post of this thread.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Hehe, sorry that isnt even close. What I am saying is that in my opinion homosexuality is wrong.

That is all.

Homophobic or not it does not matter.

Live how you want, do all you wish, do anything you wish. May you be prepared for what ever end awaits you.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:quote: Homophobic or not it does not matter.
i think the whole point of this topic is the fact that it *does* matter ray!

maybe not to you but to every gay person and to a lot of heterosexuals it matters whether or not the gay community is actually enjoying true acceptance or if it is just homophobia under a veil of tolerance.

you were trying to explain the basis of your opinions on why being gay is wrong and i don't think you've really done that.

if you don't want to explain yourself in any way other than hiding behind a religious text, you shouldn't bother entering into the discussion in the first place - the teachings of the bible were not enough to explain your opinions on homosexuality so the discussion ends?

quote: Hehe, sorry that isnt even close. What I am saying is that in my opinion homosexuality is wrong. quote:I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.what you said there ray is a long, long way from simply saying "i think homosexuality is wrong."

i'm not saying you are a bad person - i know a lot of people that don't agree with same sex relationships at all but you cannot lie and say that your opinions are solely based on your religion - we have clearly seen that they're not.

to close i thought i might ask a quick religion question

how do you (personally) decide which parts of the bible's teachings apply to your moral code and which bits do not? if you treat some parts as optional, why not the whole thing...?

[ 07. August 2003, 02:16: Message edited by: coleman ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Damn Coleman you and your simotainius posts

Okay the post I made above, ignore that untill after you read this one

My comment about knowing everything about everything was meant as humor not an insult.

As I am fully aware that you dont know everthing there is to know about the fundamental idea of splitting a nuclius free atom to improve fuel efficancy in the modern day Ford. The reason I know this... is because I just pulled that out of my butt

Lighten up man and laugh a little Though if you do know how to improve the fuel consumption rate in a modern day Ford (preferably a 1998 Ford Contour Sprot) I would really like to hear it!


Drinking to excess is considerd a sin: True.

I will be standing in the same line as every other sinner: True

My outcome will be the same as every other sinner: False

This means that not all sinners go to hell: True

The Bible can be followed word for word with the exception of the one book of prophicy (The book of Revilation), why do I say this? Because it has yet to happen in its whole. I do not know the future and the past is something I am trying to learn more of. So I can not speak for the future any more than any of you can.

Maybe the most esteemed in your opinion, or in the greater populous' opinion, but I would like to make my own opinion on who is esteemed.

The whole ideal of being a Christian is to be Christ like, in fact that is what that very word means. Was Jesus gay? No. Did Jesus ever get drunk? No. Did Jesus ever sin? No. Did Jesus drink wine? Yes. Does this mean that a Christian can drink? Yes. Does this mean that getting drunk is a sin? Yes. Does this mean that I am a sinner? DUH!!


I take it this is the question you had in mind...

quote: do you rely on scholars and the gentlemen in rome (effectively the inkers and the colourists) to decide what you should believe on *all* moral matters?
I answerd the first part (the part that I didnt quote) here is the answer to the second.


No I do not rely on someone else for all of my answers, I do rely on some people for some of my answers but no not all of my answers.

quote: how could you possibly pity a gay man on his judgement when according to your own reasoning of the nature of god, you will be standing right next to him, accused of sins that are equal in the eyes of god?
I do not pitty any man for their sins. Weather your gay, strait or bi, a sin is a sin and we will all be subject to the same judgement. According to my religion. I am not perfect, I have sinned, I am not striking down or judging anyone for their sins, I am however telling whoever is will to hear (or read) that they will be judged and what they should do to be prepared for that judgment.

If you break the 10 commandments down into their simplest form, you will find something like this... Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, body, and streangth. And love your neighbor as yourself.

I also mentiond lieing and stealing, two that are also listed in ten commandments.

Sodomy, though not listed in the 10 Commandments, it is a sin. What is Sodomy?

The dfinition of Sodomy

quote: Main Entry: sodomy
Pronunciation: 's-d&-mE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French sodomie, from Late Latin Sodoma Sodom; from the homosexual proclivities of the men of the city in Gen 19:1-11
Date: 13th century
1 : copulation with a member of the same sex or with an animal
2 : noncoital and especially anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex
Wow fancy that, not only is the Bible mentiond but it even says that homosexuality can be roped in with having sex with an animal!

If you want more referances to the Bible condeming homosexuality here you go:

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. NKJ

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


How many more times will I have to show you that it is a sin? You ask for proof that God calls homosexuality a sin, there it is! God holds each sin equal, a lie will send you to hell just as fast as murder. It is not I who hold all sin equal it is God. Do you also want proof of this?

quote: Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God All sin is equal for all have sinned.

You dont have to believe it, but I do.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hehe, sorry that isnt even close. What I am saying is that in my opinion homosexuality is wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what you said there ray is a long, long way from simply saying "i think homosexuality is wrong."
So in what one did I say that homosexuality is right? Niether? So they must both say that I think homosexuality is wrong, the second was just an extension to what I think is wrong. I could make a detailed list if that would please you. Granted not all of the list would be based on the Bible, there are some personal things that I think are wrong too.

What I include in my personal code of morality and what I follow are unfortunatly two seperate things. This is my failing and not my religions. Some addictions are just hard to break. I think I will refrain from speeking on this particuler topic in public, I dont ask details about what goes on in your life, I ask that you show me the same respect.


My opnions of homosexuality are based upon my religion.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:boy I wish we could flip flop posts to make things a bit easier to understand... we got a bit out of order hehehehehe


Yall... read these past few posts several times as they are out of order


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
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Posted:cheers for the quotes ray (i could never have pulled that many without going to a search).

until today i had no idea god was as homophobic as he is...

quote:I am however telling whoever is will to hear (or read) that they will be judged and what they should do to be prepared for that judgment.
that i can understand completely.

i still have the view that your opinion on homosexuality goes beyond the fact that that you consider it a sin according to your religion but that (like i said) is not the end of the world.

the fact that you are not forcing your opinion onto others or asking anyone to do anything different because of your beliefs says to me that there is no malice in your beliefs.
they're not completely unbiased views (christians try to be like jesus? - then love thy neighbour neighbour, no matter how they were born) but the best you can do under that belief system is to show tolerence and compassion and i think that's what you say you do.

i would never ask you to tell me something about your private life - i'm of the opinion that if you want me to know, you'll tell me.

i think what we found out here is that you and i have different opinions on homosexuality, as well as religion. blimey

[ 07. August 2003, 03:58: Message edited by: coleman ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Hah shows what you know... I did do a search, my little travel Bible just doesnt a a full concordance in the back like I wish it did. Boy the net is a lovly tool aint it

Yep once again we show a difference of opinion, so how bout them Jets?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:[sorry - edited that last post of mine cos it sounded a bit condescending on a second read]

glad to see a difference of opinion doesn't always lead to non-communication - even when the only form of expression we have is a text message board and some little coloured circles that claim to impart emotions

so how about them who's?! are we back onto ford engines again...?

lovely weather we're having here...

right, anyone that wants to go back on topic is free to - i think ray and i are done here for now


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:Not sure I see how anything's been solved....

But it's kinda normal with christians. The whole religion thing RELIES on people not asking hard questions

on blind belief

Hell, that's their problem - if they wanna live in fear they can.

BUT - i think it's horrific that kids are brought up to believe this. Kids who don't know if they're gay or not - then when they find out - can you even imagine the mental torture?

Knowing that your God who you've been bought up to love thinks that you're an aberration?

Would you be happy if we were still teaching black kids that they were inferior?

Cos Mr Phule in your new homophobia you're busy saying that's all ok

because god loves you.

Do you seriously think so?


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
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Posted:i think what we've found out is that religion (specifically christianity) perpetuates this 'new homophobia' that was described in the very first post here.

our objective here should not be to change each others opinions but rather to understand all the viewpoints so that we can better deal with the non-acceptance of the gay community.

i for one understand better now why christians will not accept being homosexual as a valid way to live your life - i don't have to agree or even empathise with the standpoint but it does mean i know where and how the modern bible refers to homosexuality and why christians in general will likely have a similar opinion to ray's.

i don't think its okay that christians say 'god considers homosexuals sinners' but i'm not going to change someone's mind by chatting about it here.


the time at which that the texts were written there was far less equality and compassion - towards women even, let alone homosexuals - and as as non-religious person i can step back and say 'maybe that had an effect on the teachings of the bible'. a devout follower cannot do that.

to be honest (and as ray already knows) i don't believe that following an organised religion is a very sensible way to construct a set of rational beliefs and morals but i try not to disrespect those that do.

i have a great amount of respect for someone that has an unshakable belief in god but unfortunately it seems this is a rare thing without a committal to an organised religion.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:hear hear well said - all of it
quote:i don't think its okay that christians say 'god considers homosexuals sinners' but i'm not going to change someone's mind by chatting about it here.I just hope sometimes we might be able to make them think or reconsider things - as long as christianity rules most of our lives and it holds such things dear... *shrugs*

It's all ya can do - that and of course be yourself (if you are gay) rather than living up to easy stereotypes!


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soldari


soldari

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Posted:You Phule!

Have you ever thought for a minute that God isn't the one who wrote the Bible*, and that these are stories, not History, and that in reality God never punished people (except the people who beleived they where being punished by God, but that's an entirely different story). It's been acknowledged and all...

Did you know* some tribes seperate the men from the women most of the year (as to not increase their numbers without killing excess children) and that the men satisfy each other's sexual needs? Did you also know* that there are homosexual couples who don't have sex?

quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Obviusly you have yet to read everything that I have written. Go back and read, then maybe I will answer your questions.Why would I need to? all you seem to be doing is quoting an outdated book that has nothing to do with the current state of the world we live in. Mix in a tea-spoon of a closet homosexuality with a large helping of homophobia and TADA!

No, I'm not saying you're a homosexual, I'm just saying you have seemingly violent feelings towards the issue. And I don't mean to attack your opinions (as you have the right to your own), only the way you express and justify them.

And as a question to you: can you explain to me, without any reference to God, religion, or the Bible, why it's wrong for two men to love eachother? (And no, you don't have to answer, cause I didn't read everything you wrote)

-sigh- see, you got me too rant...

/soldari

*) I'm pretty sure you've realised this by now, but I'm just checking.


there is no better way to say I love you than with the gift of a spatula!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:The whole debate was about people who say homosexuality is okay, but then say, Its not okay for my kid.

I do not say it is okay in the least bit. I say it is 100% wrong. I can not force my opinion on anyone and I can not get anyone to change. I have admitted that people will do whatever it is they want to and there is nothign I can do about it. I have saught to say that I dont agree and here is why. Take it at face value.

Homosexuality is a sin, just like everyother sin and it should not be viewed greater or less than any other sin. I think you fail to undertand that.

Frostypaw, it is obvius that you are not a Christian and obvius that you never tried to understand the religion. Otherwise you wouldnt think the way you do. You wouldnt think that Christians take everything on faith alone, you wouldnt think that nobody asks questions.

And now you sit there and call me a racist, I think you are just trying to piss me off, because your not making one intelegent argument.

Good day sir.


Coleman, Christianity does not say that homosexuality is okay. It never did and never will. Therefore how can it be homophobic like the example in the first post?

Coleman, if you believe in God, what do you base your belief off of if not an organised religion? Even if you base it off of your own opinions, you are oganising your belief into a religion, thus making you a hipocrite.


Frosty, you cant change someone if they dont want to change. Quit trying.


Soldari, think what you will.

Is it wrong to for a man to love a man (I would include for a woman to love a woman but you will soon see why I didnt)?

Define love. I love me father, he is a man and so am I, that form of love, no it is not wrong. I have friends that I love, that I would die for in a heartbeat, that I would do anything to help them in a time of need, even if it cost me everything, is that kind of love wrong? No.
If a man loves another man as if he would want to take that man as a mate (bride just wouldnt be the right word there), that is wrong. Why is it wrong, with out using the Bible, in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that. The difference between a man and a womans body is distinct. Remember that little multi-sided ball with the shaped holes, and the blocks that fit only in 1 specific hole, its a kids toy. You could never seem to fit the cube in the star slot now could you? Two penuses do not go together... granted there are several orifaces on the human body that you can stick it, but at the basic human design it just doesnt work.

It goes against the very fundamentals of nature. If you wish to relate humans to other mamals, the whole purpose of mating is to procreate and extend the life of the species. In this two male species can not accomplish. They do nothing but satisfy their own desires.

Granted some men and women for one reason or another, just cant have children, a properly functioning body is not something everyone can have, it is a sad fact of life. So dont try to use that as some form of excuse.

I dont have all the answers, but you asked for my opinion and I have given it. Chastise me all you wnat, call me names, call me homophobic, closed minded, arrogant, old fashond, jackass, fool, ignorant... call me whatever it is that you want. Make fun of my religion if you want, make fun of my God.

I am rock solid in Jesus Christ and you can not shake me. It is good to question and seek answers to obtain knowlege, feel free to ask me what you will... but dont be upset if you dont like my answers.


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preambled


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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Two penuses do not go together... granted there are several orifaces on the human body that you can stick it, but at the basic human design it just doesnt work.I thought your homophobia stemmed purely from a religious viewpoint, which was reasonable enough I suppose. But to attempt scientific reasoning baffles me.

If your argument is that (the subjective and incredibly irritating term) "unnatural" equates to "immoral", and that a penis is only naturally made to enter a vagina to propogate the species, then almost every single person on the planet is unnatural. Anyone who masturbates, indulges in oral sex, touches another human with a finger to incite pleasure; all these people are immoral by your non-religious standard.

Are you proposing that, if religion is set aside, the only moral form of sexual conduct is a male impregnating a female? Thus, the female should receive little to no pleasure? Further extrapolations involve no moral ground for men taking multiple partners, or rape. All because these are actions that take place in the animal kingdom - they are natural.

The fact is, human sexuality is far more complex than that. I could argue that homosexuality is a natural process. Suppose that it has come about as a means for depopulation, and/or to ensure the survival of children by providing more adults to care for fewer children.

The one point I really want to make is that "unnatural" (however you come to the conclusion that something is unnatural) does NOT mean immoral. Morality is an entirely separate entity to nature. Humans invented morality. Nature does not and in fact, can not care. Thus, I fail to see how homosexuality is immoral outside the scope of religion.

Lastly - I hope I haven't sounded insulting. (?) It's vaguely refreshing to hear the viewpoint of a seemingly devout Christian that is more tolerant of homosexuals than most atheists I interact with every day.



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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Where do you get this? My goodness you are crazy to come up with this.

Where did I mention masterbation or sensual touch?

I am just shocked that you pulled all of that out of your ass cause you sure as hell didnt get it from my post.

I was asked to explain (without the use of the Bible,) why I did not agree with homosexuality. I gave a reason, exactly like I was asked.

It is my opinion if you really wish to discuss my opinion feel free to contact me via PM.

Let me guess, my opinion is different from yours, right?

That must mean that I have to edjucated in the ways of the world untill my opinion is that of yours?

I no longer have the right to an opinion as it does not equal yours. Because of this I should be subject to gross exagerations on everything that I say.

I never said that because I viewd it unnatural that I also viewd it immoral. No my morals are based on my religion. I was asked to explain myself with out using religion and I did. To the best of my ability.


I just dont get you man.

Honestly I say get back on the friggin topic and off my opinion.


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preambled


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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Where did I mention masterbation or sensual touch?You don't need to, it just follows on from your logic, which I'll try to illustrate clearly below.

quote:Let me guess, my opinion is different from yours, right?

That must mean that I have to edjucated in the ways of the world untill my opinion is that of yours?Not at all. You're totally welcome to your opinion, I'm just trying to understand it.

quote:I no longer have the right to an opinion as it does not equal yours. Because of this I should be subject to gross exagerations on everything that I say.They weren't meant as gross exaggerations. They were examples of following your logic, which I understood to be as follows:

Outside of a religious scope, homosexuality is unnatural because a penis is not made to go into a penis.

Is this right? If not, I'm sorry, I've misunderstood you. If it IS, however, then my previous post stands.

Admittedly, you didn't use the exact word "unnatural", but you said it goes against the very fundamentals of nature - I took this to mean "unnatural". Your wording was that men are not designed to physically love each other.

quote:I never said that because I viewd it unnatural that I also viewd it immoral. No my morals are based on my religion. I was asked to explain myself with out using religion and I did. To the best of my ability.If it is not immoral outside of your religious scope then why are you saying it's "wrong"? (your words) My point is that if something is deemed unnatural it does not necessarily mean it is wrong.

quote:Honestly I say get back on the friggin topic and off my opinion.Yeesh - I didn't mean to upset you, sorry if I have. I won't apologise for challenging you on this though. It is a discussion that I feel is important.

Ok, back on pure topic:

This new homophobia disgusts me just as much as the 'old' one. Until we erradicate the belief that any consentual adult sexuality is immoral, I will look upon those who perpetuate the passive hatred of good people with sad, sad eyes indeed.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Can you prove that there is hate in my opinion of homosexuality?

Can you prove that there is any fear?

Consensual adult hetero sex is not immoral, however I feel homosexuality is.

Like I have asked before, show me the hate, show me the fear.

You cant, because there is none. I just can not agree with it.

I have my reasons, and none of them are fear or hatred.

So that rules out homophobia now doesnt it?


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
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Posted:quote:I have my reasons, and none of them are fear or hatred.

So that rules out homophobia now doesnt it?Just because your reasons are someone else's - i.e. who ever translated that version of the bible - doesn't stop it from being homophobia matey

this is - as the topic states - the new homophobia. not proactively hating and aggressive, but more insidious and sneaky

"oh i think you're fine - but you'll go to hell if you don't beg forgiveness for being as bad a sinner as murderers and rapists" (which is what you've been saying)

is VASTLY different from

"oh i think you're fine"

can't you see that? look at the sentences - the words give it away - one of them has more of them</patronising> - but seriously - can't you see that?


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coleman
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coleman

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Posted:HOMOPHOBIA

NOUN: 1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. 2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

i think your opinion does equate to homophobia ray - as i have said, i do not see any hate or fear in your statements but i do see a large amount of contempt.

to address the comments directed my way:

quote: Coleman, Christianity does not say that homosexuality is okay. It never did and never will. Therefore how can it be homophobic like the example in the first post?

Coleman, if you believe in God, what do you base your belief off of if not an organised religion? Even if you base it off of your own opinions, you are oganising your belief into a religion, thus making you a hipocrite first point i think is explained by the dictionary quote - christianity is homophobic by definition.
excuse me if i misunderstand but if god really did kill the men of sodom for being gay, it has to rate as the largest scale hate crime on record.
if you can give me an example of a more homophobic act, i'll be impressed.
according to your definition of christianity, christians should try to emulate jesus, who was the embodiment of god on earth, who was a homophobe!
what does the bible really teach on this issue cos it sure isn't tolerance...?

second point: sorry, logic doesn't work like that ray
my problems with organised religion are too many to go into here and the only reason i mentioned it was to explain why the discussion had got so off topic and why i had a problem with opinions on homosexuality coming from a belief system set down by someone other than yourself.
i think you can believe in god and not subscribe to a major organised religion. it is very likely that the faith in the deity will have begun with an organised religion but once a person begins to think for themselves and question the religious 'authority' they make the move towards their own 'religion'. a religion in this sense of the word is just a set of beliefs. what i meant by 'organised' is the fact that with the major religions, there is a list of beliefs that *every* follower must subscribe and adhere to without question, and these are often numerous and far reaching. a religion that you come to 'based off your own opinions' (as you put it) is not organised in this sense. again, this is not really something we should get into here though.

to clear up a few things...
homosexuality does exist in nature. many mammals have been observed to attempt to mate with the same sex - they don't get very far because they don't have sex for pleasure and thus have to give up when they can't find the right bits.
i do not as you suggested 'wish to relate humans to animals' however because humans are not just animals any more - we are on a higher level of conciousness and thus we choose when we have sex, who with and what for. most of the time we have sex not for natural reasons (procreation) but purely because it feels good - remember the observation that in gay sex the persons involved 'do nothing but satisfy their own desires'? - that is against the very fundamentals of nature too. so is all sex for pleasure wrong or not? according to your reasoning it is so if not, why not?

interestingly you completely ignored preambled's observation that in nature animals take multiple partners and commit rape - this should make it crystal clear that the comparison between human sexuality and animal sexuality is absolutely irrelavent. to decide what is right and wrong (morally) by taking your cues from the animal kingdom is a highly questionable method of constructing a moral viewpoint on a subject (do it for murder and you'll see it makes no sense - it would be fine to kill someone as long as its a weaker person and we eat them afterwards ).

also, i think your comment that he 'pulled all that out of your ass' is well out of line. his arguments were in fact logical extensions of your (bible independent) 'reasons' for disagreeing with homosexuality. i'm afraid if anything was 'pulled out of an ass' it was your reasoning in the first place.
want an example?

quote: Why is it wrong, with out using the Bible, in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love each other like that. logical extension of which is that a sexual act involving anything other than a man and a woman using their genitalia (ie. the only correct arrangement that corresponds to the 'physical design') is therefore wrong:

quote: Anyone who masturbates, indulges in oral sex, touches another human with a finger to incite pleasure; all these people are immoral by your non-religious standard. why should we only do things that you deem we were 'designed' to do?! we weren't 'designed' to walk upright either but we do. are we doing wrong there too?


quote: Consensual adult hetero sex is not immoral, however I feel homosexuality is. i think the other people here's qualm is that you have yet to provide a decent basis for this opinion ray (and yes, i have read everything you have written in this thread, at least twice).
you tried to explain it relating it to nature and that analogy, as we have seen, fails.
the only basis you have given for your opinion as it stands is the bible.

quote: Is it wrong to for a man to love a man (I would include for a woman to love a woman but you will soon see why I didnt)? finally you never did mention why you didn't include lesbians in your discussion of homosexuality.
if its the fact that 'they don't have penises at all so its obvious they're not supposed to f*ck' so help me, i may die laughing!
but please do explain...


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they do porridge."
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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:I find it interesting how you find it easier to attack me than to discuss what true homophobia is.


Frosty, are you attacking my religion or me? It is obvius that you hate Christians so why dont you come out and say it? Your past few posts have done nothing but tell me that. "I hate you Ray because you are a Christian, I hate your God, I have everything about you."

I guess that if you can put words in my mouth, then I can put words in yours.

quote: "oh i think you're fine - but you'll go to hell if you don't beg forgiveness for being as bad a sinner as murderers and rapists" (which is what you've been saying)

is VASTLY different from

"oh i think you're fine"
I do not think homosexuality is fine, why do you think I do? Why do you think Christianity says that homosexuality is fine? Where do you get this rubbish?


quote: HOMOPHOBIA

NOUN: 1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. 2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

i think your opinion does equate to homophobia ray - as i have said, i do not see any hate or fear in your statements but i do see a large amount of contempt.
Contempt? Why would I, and I mean me personaly not those who translated the Bible, feel contempt for any homosexual? Or better yet why do you feel that I hold contempt?


quote: excuse me if i misunderstand but if god really did kill the men of sodom for being gay, it has to rate as the largest scale hate crime on record.
if you can give me an example of a more homophobic act, i'll be impressed.
Well... if you truly consider the destruction of Sodom as a hate crime, wouldnt the Flood be an even greater hate crime? I mean what only Noah and his family servived that?!?

The men in Sodom were not killed souly for being gay, I have said that before, but it was a major enough to offend God. Gomorrah, was also destroyed because of its sin, though it really wasnt spoken of too much. I cant answer why.

quote: according to your definition of christianity, christians should try to emulate jesus, who was the embodiment of god on earth, who was a homophobe!
So your saying that God, is afraid of his own creation? You are truly laughable!

quote: what does the bible really teach on this issue cos it sure isn't tolerance...? Tolerance? No it doenst teach tolerance per-say.
However the Bible does teach to love the sinner and to hate the sin. I doubt you truly understand how to do this, because I honestly have trouble with it.

quote: once a person begins to think for themselves and question the religious 'authority' they make the move towards their own 'religion'. a religion in this sense of the word is just a set of beliefs. Are you telling me that I should make myself into my own god?


quote: homosexuality does exist in nature. many mammals have been observed to attempt to mate with the same sex - they don't get very far because they don't have sex for pleasure and thus have to give up when they can't find the right bits.
i do not as you suggested 'wish to relate humans to animals' however because humans are not just animals any more - we are on a higher level of conciousness and thus we choose when we have sex, who with and what for. most of the time we have sex not for natural reasons (procreation) but purely because it feels good - remember the observation that in gay sex the persons involved 'do nothing but satisfy their own desires'? - that is against the very fundamentals of nature too. so is all sex for pleasure wrong or not? according to your reasoning it is so if not, why not?

Have you ever seen a dog hump a couch? I think that is proof that it chooses to (humorously at times) attempt to have sex when it wants.


Your trying to mix two different subjects, sex for pleasure and same-sex intercourse. Only one at a time.

quote: interestingly you completely ignored preambled's observation that in nature animals take multiple partners and commit rape Yes I completely ignored his comment about animals raping other animals and what not, for one reason alone... I didnt see it. Accidents happen bud

I know that some humans like to have their animals get "married" but it just isnt the same things, also dont forget that some animals do mate for life.

quote: why should we only do things that you deem we were 'designed' to do?! we weren't 'designed' to walk upright either but we do. are we doing wrong there too? Where do you get the idea that we were not meant to walk upright? Look at the bone structure of our bodies, Look at hour our head sits on our neck, the curvature of our spines, the very way our feet are shaped. hehe Now that was pulled out of your ass!

quote: i think the other people here's qualm is that you have yet to provide a decent basis for this opinion ray (and yes, i have read everything you have written in this thread, at least twice).
you tried to explain it relating it to nature and that analogy, as we have seen, fails.
the only basis you have given for your opinion as it stands is the bible.
Why do I have to explain my opinion, why dont you tell me why homosexuality is the right thing to do?

Is my opinion the reason for this debate or is homophobia?


quote: finally you never did mention why you didn't include lesbians in your discussion of homosexuality.
if its the fact that 'they don't have penises at all so its obvious they're not supposed to f*ck' so help me, i may die laughing!
but please do explain...
I didnt include for women to love women because I figure you smart enough to be able to swap out son and father for mother and daughter, man and man for woman and woman. I thought it made sence, I am sorry you disagree.


So who wants to tell me why homosexuality is right. I mean other than the phiosiphy; Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! And the philosiphy, if it feels good, do it!


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:point by point...
quote:Frosty, are you attacking my religion or me? It is obvius that you hate Christians so why dont you come out and say it? Your past few posts have done nothing but tell me that. "I hate you Ray because you are a Christian, I hate your God, I have everything about you."your religion - you're just taking it personally.

if this is what you believe in then you should be willing and able to defend it. If I state an opinion then I'll be able to back it up - I'm only asking you to do that. If you can't - admit it. Don't make it out to be a personal attack.
quote:I do not think homosexuality is fine, why do you think I do? Why do you think Christianity says that homosexuality is fine? Where do you get this rubbish?There are a vast number of posts on this thread where you've made quite a point about how you don't hate homosexuals - how you think it's fine that they're in the army etc and you keep saying you don't hate homosexuals

Which equates to "it's fine" right?

You've also made quite a point that god doesn't hate homosexuals - but what they do - i.e. "it's fine" - it might be a sin but you're not proactively hating and suggesting they get stoned to death.

i.e. "it's fine, but you have to beg forgiveness for your sins"

I'm not making it up mate - just repeating what you've said.
quote:Well... if you truly consider the destruction of Sodom as a hate crime, wouldnt the Flood be an even greater hate crime? I mean what only Noah and his family servived that?!?that's pretty weak mister

try harder

the flood killed everyone and everything - not just gay people, or black people, or jews/whatever - everyone.

a hate crime in this context is one aimed at a particular group not everyone. that was a weak attempt at dismissing what I thought was a very good point.
quote:So your saying that God, is afraid of his own creation? You are truly laughable!did you even read the definition of homophobia? go back and read it. heck you even quoted it in this message - check it out. fear OR contempt. to suggest an entire swathe of people (who god created gay) need pity and 'saving' is contempt.
quote:However the Bible does teach to love the sinner and to hate the sin. I doubt you truly understand how to do this, because I honestly have trouble with it.And that - as we've been saying since very early on - is the new homophobia.


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