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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:I've started to notice a new trend, at least in america. People are starting to tell their children (and aquantinces, whatever) that there is nothing wrong with homosexuals. They are regular human beings, should be treated like it, and deserve all (well, ok, most) of the rights of a normal human being. Their (children, friends) should treat homosexuals as such.

But said (child/friend/aquantince) should not be a homosexual themselves, b/c it is not ok for them to be homosexual, just, "other people."

Anyone else seeing this? What do you think?

At the very least, I've noticed that it means the kids are still afraid of their own desires.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:S'ok Cantus... rant if ya like! more interested in helping you engage in a discussion rather than insults - you'll find it helps not insulting ppls

quote:it's just another forum where everyone shouts at Mr Phule and doesn't bother to step back and say "hey ray, that's your opinion. it's different from mine but all the shouting in the world isn't going to make you change it.No... it's another chance to find out why people think this is so...

It's interesting to see how contorted the posts are - how desperate the reasons - says a lot!


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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Im intrigued as to which version of the Bible youre reading. Having so many versions of biblical texts highlights a fundamental problem with those who claim the Bible contains the true words of God. My suspicions about your quote were raised as the word sex only appears a handful of times in the Bible.

I found some on the internet:
American Standard Version
King James Version
Revised standard Version

Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned from chapters 10 to 19, they were key cities of the time. The Bible states the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners against Jehovah exceedingly.

The Corinthians quote is a bit more like I was looking for, but again your Bible is different to the ones I checked:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, The phrase abusers of themselves with mankind is a bit sketchy as to its true meaning, could be a number of things.

And I dont know how you think you can choose your romantic partners! You do not choose who you find attractive and you love who you love. You do not choose!

Its also interesting to note that you are a perfect example of the kind of person Kyri started this thread about. Youre anti-gay, but put up a faade of tolerance. Surely you should be condemning Mike, telling him to go get exorcised or else hell burn in the fiery pits of hell?

And Cantus I am truly interested in how Ray thinks. I do tend to have a dig at him, but I do really find these discussions interesting. And its a forum for discussing things, not just long threads of inane nonsense.


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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Im intrigued as to which version of the Bible youre reading. Having so many versions of biblical texts highlights a fundamental problem with those who claim the Bible contains the true words of God. My suspicions about your quote were raised as the word sex only appears a handful of times in the Bible.

I found some on the internet:
American Standard Version
King James Version
Revised standard Version

Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned from chapters 10 to 19, they were key cities of the time. The Bible states the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners against Jehovah exceedingly.

The Corinthians quote is a bit more like I was looking for, but again your Bible is different to the ones I checked:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, The phrase abusers of themselves with mankind is a bit sketchy as to its true meaning, could be a number of things.

And I dont know how you think you can choose your romantic partners! You do not choose who you find attractive and you love who you love. You do not choose!

Its also interesting to note that you are a perfect example of the kind of person Kyri started this thread about. Youre anti-gay, but put up a faade of tolerance. Surely you should be condemning Mike, telling him to go get exorcised or else hell burn in the fiery pits of hell?

And Cantus I am truly interested in how Ray thinks. I do tend to have a dig at him, but I do really find these discussions interesting. And its a forum for discussing things, not just long threads of inane nonsense.


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, quote:"9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor aldulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor the drunkards nor slanderers nor sindlers will inherit the Kingom of God."Anyone else willing to place a bet on which version is the Standard American Bible?

The word of God is, of course, only accurate in american....

But seriously they're all so different - take one translation and you're damned for having a wank

Take one and you're damned for being gay

Take one and you're damned for abusing yourself in any way - all us smokers going down, basement floor on the left.

Take your pick really...

Raymond - a serious question - why do you think your bible is the correct and accurate one, why not - for example - the King James Bible?

(here's hoping that gets a proper answer! i'd love to know how people reason out which one's right)


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preambled
member
Location: auckland
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 53
Posted:anyone who bases their belief that homosexuality is immoral on biblical references is fine with me, because they're obviously either insane or dull-witted.

it's the people who do not believe in god and still think it's "unnatural" that really irk me.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Actually it is the NIV New Interantional Version. Anybody who is absurd enough to try to use something like the American Standerd as some bull shit anti-America/Bush/Clinton/war/whatever is just plane ignorant and should haze themselves. Some translations can be harder to understand, I mean the KJV has been around what two-hundred, two-hundred fifty years?? Maybe longer... I bet though that the people back then understood it, mainly because they spoke like that, but that was just different times. No one interpritation is right no one interpritation is wrong.

Dom, would you say that there is a differance between anti-gay and homophobic? If so, then you probably could say that I am anti-gay, scared of gay people... that I am truly not.

Am I fool for believing in God, or the Bible? I know the answer to that, but you all wouldnt believe me anyway, so lets just wait untill we die to finish that discussion.

Ohh and I am very much insaine, sanity is so boring, you cant have fun in life if your saine.

Dom, are you still dating the first person you ever dated? If not then right there is how you choose your romatic partners. You probably chose another, she was probably in a similer situation and chose you.

Mike is more than welcome to live out his life the way he chooses, I dont agree with it, but then again there is alot of things I dont agree with.

I have been deployed for almost a year now, do you really think that every married Marine with me has obstained from having sex just because they arnt with their wives? Have I ran off to tell their wives? No, I believe when the time is right, either A they will see the error of their ways and come clean, or B their past will catch up to them one way or another, in one life or another.

Mike is a big boy now, capable of making his own decisions and accountable for his own actions, I may not agree with him, but I am not going to sit there and pound a Bible ontop of his head.

I will present my opinion with my facts, and let it be. However if either come under rebute or attack, I will defend them with everything I have.


C@ntus, hehe Dom and I do this once every few months, it is actually quite fun. Dom is better at arguing than I am, it presents a challenge. Learning to keep emotion out of my posts as much as possible is another challenge, but a fun one as well. However if someone bites me I bite back!

Frostypaw, there comes a time when you need to stop pushing and realise that the discussion you were having 2 posts ago has now become and emotional fight. You may feel that someones reasons are quote:desperate but some may not see them as desperate.


Dom, in all honesty, I am tired of tellign people that I think drugs are wrong, that I think homosexuality is wrong, things like that, because nobody seems to listen. Alot of people just want to tell me how closed-minded I am becuase I do not agree with their opinions, I mean isnt that being hypocritical? If you have the right to your opinion then I have the right to mine. It isnt closed-minded of me to think that I am rite and your wrong, if it isnt closed-minded for you to think that your right and I am wrong.


If someone really wants to know why I believe how I believe, I will be glad to tell them, if they are just asking questions to get a rise out of me... well hell they can jump off the Empire State Building and hope to catch their eyelid on a nail!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Interesting. The "New International Version" seems like an interpretation of a Bible by a particular group, and a very conservative group. It uses simplier language than the original bible to be more accessible. Fine in theory, but they seems to interpret things differently to how other people might interpret them. I fail to see hoe "to know them" equates to "bugger them".

I still don't get what you mean by choosing your romantic partners. Surely you don't conciously choose who you fall in love with. I don't and can't meet somebody and think "I'm going to fall in love with you" and you can't force yourself to love somebody you don't.

Anyway, I'm off on holiday now. Bye!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom, the second you meet someone, your in love with them?

I dont know about you, but when I meet someone there is some form of a attraciton. I'm not in love with them, but at some time you choose the relationship, or choose 50% of it.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, interestingly, the wording in the KJV was actually considered to be formal and "old-fashioned" at the time.

Not that it's germane to the discussion at hand, just an interesting factoid. Carry on.

So far I am Jewish and Gay. Whaddya think, Ray, would you take odds that I'm the anti-Christ?
(relax! I'm just joking aroung!)


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:It's not easy being Green U know!
Kermot the Frog


And, did U know that people who write with their left hand will go to hell when they die! Naughty left handers. It's not natural too write with yur left hand, U know, just not natural!!!




[ 05. August 2003, 16:31: Message edited by: Stone ]


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:SACRILEGE!! i think you should go to hell for mis-spelling 'Kermit the Frog.'

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:So, Dentrassi, if Kermit is God does that make Miss Piggy the Virgin Mary?



It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:well, i dont recall a biblical passage where the virgin mary beats up god, so perhaps not. additionally Miss Piggy is the affectionate type so she'd be pretty pissed off if she got pregnant without the fun part. if theres any muppets character that should be god it should be Gonzo.

i think we are drifting off topic. ill stand back and let the indepth conversation about biblical consistancy start up again.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Stuff that. In this thread of selective quoting from the bible I would just be far to tempted to point out that Genesis chapter 20 ends in this manner:

quote:
Genesis Chapter 20
30: And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31: And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33: And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34: And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our Father.
35: And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36: Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37: And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38: And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
And therefore the bible supports incest.

However cos I think selectively quoting from a text entirely out of cultural context just makes you look silly, I am not going to.

Instead I will subtly re-direct the conversation by bringing in something interesting. I have marched in Mardi Gras in Sydney a couple of times, and always feel the need to say "straight but not narrow", as though I am trying to ensure that I am not mistaken for being gay. That is my prejudice, instilled in me as a child by the usual epithets that kids fling around before they know what they mean. Very few of us are entirely clear of prejudice.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Alot of twisted things happend in the Bible, it doesnt mean that it was supported. Please remember that just because it was written in the Bible it doesnt mean that God supported it. It doesnt mean that its not a sin.

You also note that Lot didnt know what happend. I am sure that someone will try to accidently forget that was mentiond but we all make mistakes.

Ohh thats Chapter 19, not 20.

Mike, I know you are somewhat joking, but I really dont care what you are or what you do or who you do it with. Its all you man do what you want, I wont approve all the time but then again since you dont seek my approval why should you care what I think. If I am right, and I do believe I am, just dont come up to me and expect pitty when your standing there waiting on your judgment.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Some translations can be harder to understandAnd therefore you ignore them?

What about the originals eh?

Why should your "Brand Spanking New and Funked Up International (microsoft) English Version" be the right one?

that's what's desperate - "oooh well i've found this version here that says i can jerk off" - come off it. "ooh this one says it's bad to be gay"

*wonders if it damns communism too*

quote:If someone really wants to know why I believe how I believe, I will be glad to tell them, if they are just asking questions to get a rise out of me... well hell they can jump off the Empire State Building and hope to catch their eyelid on a nail!Why else would we ask?

Why presume we're that childish?

I'm honestly curious what on earth makes one version of a text more valid than another - issit 'cos it's easier to read?


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Where did you hear me or anyone else say that one verson was better?

And yes, alot of people are childish, and they need to know I will defend my position with aggression if needed.

Ohh if you read the book of Acts, you will find an early form of communisim.

Frosty, you really like to pick out something someone says, well... one little bit and then ignore the context in which it was written. See thats quoting out of context, a bad thing to do in a debate, it makes you look dumb. You may not be dumb but it makes you look so.

Dont get me wrong I am neither calling you smart nor dumb, just letting you know.


Also you speculate alot, you put things in peoples mouths and you go too far to an extream if you think it will proove your point, in reality... you prove nothing, because someone can come along and just sink your ship like the Titanic.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Where did you hear me or anyone else say that one verson was better?You have chosen to heed the words of this International Version - yet there are other versions that Don't say "bugger" etc in them - as other people have shown there are many versions of the passage you quoted - most of which don't directly support what you've claimed is "god's word"

Hence... why is that version the one ya listen to?

I'm not picking out one point and ignoring the rest - i'm challenging the very foundation of your argument - "god's word" - if that can't be defended and proven then the rest of the case against homosexuality crumbles into dust

As long as all this hate and hurt turns on that axis it's what must be questioned.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I am using the NIV because it is the Bible that I have sitting in front of me, not because it supports my opinion. Unfortunatly I dont have a full concordance with me so I cant go into every detail about homosexuality as I dont have the entire Bible memorised.

"nor abusers of themselves with mankind" thus meaning sex with men, probably a nice way of saying taking it in the ass! so there is another version.


Here is the full quote from the ASV

quote: But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 19:5 and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men that came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 19:6 And Lot went out unto them to the door, and shut the door after him. 19:7 And he said, I pray you, my brethren, do not so wickedly. 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters that have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing, forasmuch as they are come under the shadow of my roof. 19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and drew near to break the door. 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
And the KJV

quote: But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 and said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

and now the RSV

quote: But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house;
[5] and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them."
[6] Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him,
[7] and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.
[8] Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
[9] But they said, "Stand back!" And they said, "This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them."
Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door.
[10] But the men put forth their hands and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door.
[11] And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves groping for the door.
In the Bible that I quoted and these three, all of them say in one way or another that the men of the city refused two VIRGIN daughters for the men. Is this not homosexuality?

Did God, according to the Bible, not destroy this city full of gay men?

Like Mike was so kind to point out, this agument it mute if you dont believe in the Bible, but thats not the point, the piont is, is that I have backed up my opinion, something nobody else has done. Witht he exception of... "this is just how I feel".


Hate? Where do you see hate? Surly not from me, I do not hate homosexuals, I dont agree with it and I am not afraid to say that I dont agree with it. I do not hate them.

I am not making an argument against homosexuality, I am backing up why I dont agree with it.

If you are homosexual, then I do not agree with your sexual preferance, I have stated why, though you are free to do what you will. I will never support you in your actions, nor will I tolorate anyone taking actions against you.


I even support homosexuality in the military! Yes, its true, personally I feel that if someone,reguardless of sexual preferance, can maintain a professional attitude while on duty and adhere to the standerds of the institution then by all means hand em a rifle! It should not matter what sex someone prefers, as relationships are not part of a professional attitude then we really dont have anything to worry about in the work place now do we?

So show me where I hate???


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:"nor abusers of themselves with mankind" thus meaning sex with men, probably a nice way of saying taking it in the ass! so there is another version.I'd interpret "abusers of themselves" to be more likely to mean no wanking! And definately no getting yer mates around to all jack off to a porn flick (freaky idea to start with)

quote:In the Bible that I quoted and these three, all of them say in one way or another that the men of the city refused two VIRGIN daughters for the men. Is this not homosexuality?So in your mind someone who refuses to shag a virgin is a poof and should go to hell? It doesn't say that they went off and shagged a man, it just says they said no.

What if they minged?

And do you REALLY want to lend this much credence to a society and religion where giving over your virgin daughters "to the men of the city" is a good way of getting out of a mob? They threaten to beat Lot up - and he offers his virgin daughters as whores to appease them... nice!

"that's OK jeff, i've got a virgin daughter - if they don't shag her they're gay and we can safely know they're damned anyway"

The hate is thinking they're damnned. How can you truly accept and like someone when you're thinking "hehe - you're going to hell"

that's a very very odd kind of friendship.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
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Total posts: 2905
Posted:Frosty, no body said that homosexuals go to hell. Do your ulcer a favor and get off that tangent, forgivness of sin is a different topic all together.

Lot didnt attempt to give up his daughters to save his hide, he did it to save the angels (the two men), not that they really needed it but then you get into the folly of man and thats another topic too

Again, they didnt just give up two virgins women, they said no we want to have sex with the men! Not wanting to have sex doesnt mean your gay, wanting or having sex with the same sex means your gay. Do you not understand this?

Now you get onto the going to hell part, again!

I forget the passage referance, but it goes something like, If we repent of our sins, He (God) is faithfull and just and will forgive us of all unrightiousness. Also For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And one last one, For all have sined and have fallen short of the glory of God.

So just because your gay doesnt mean that your gonna burn. So, now where is the hate?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
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Total posts: 2905
Posted:Frosty, Dom, Mike... I dont want to explain myself further, you have my opinoin and your not going to change it. This is what I believe, accept it and move on. You neednt challenge it any more nor do you need to challenge where I base my opinion from. All of your attacks have failed, every last one. There is nothing you can say that will change that.

Have a good day.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:yay!

once again, a debate is brought to an end just as it reaches the crux of the matter...

the thing that strikes me here is that nowhere in those three quotes (from three different versions of the bible) does it directly say the men were homosexuals - that they wanted to have sex with the two men under lot's care.

and if you read between the lines and decide that it implies just that, then it must also imply that they are rapists - wanting to 'know' the two men, whether it was their will or not (against it would seem as they do not readily come out to meet the men of the city).

who are we to judge whether or not god killed the men of sodom for their evil nature or for their sexual preferences?

in fact, we should not judge at all ('lest we be judged' or something equally ominous) - isn't that right reserved for god and god alone...?

i thought the idea was that we treat each person as our own brother or sister and let god deal with whether or not what they do in the bedroom is 'right' or 'wrong' when their day of judgement comes?

it is not our place to read words (put into god's mouth by men) and assume that our interpretation is correct and hence that we can consider homosexuals sinners.

[ 06. August 2003, 03:39: Message edited by: coleman ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:any ray, *please* don't take this as an 'attack' upon yourself.

my post was intended to be a juxtaposition to the common assumption that the men of sodom were killed because of their sexual preferences rather than other actions that could much more readily be interpreted as sins.
if it's anything inflammatory, its an indictment on the ambiguity of religious texts and our tendancy as followers to read between the lines and interpret those teachings to suit our already fully formed opinions.

but the debate is over anyway so i'll go away now


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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soldari
soldari

busy-tofu!
Location: montreal: bagel capital
Member Since: 16th Jul 2003
Total posts: 133
Posted:Choice? God? Intended by nature? Virgins?

There are a lot of things that don't make any sense: here is my 2 cents.

1) Homosexuality is not a choice, it's a preference. The choice comes when you decide to either go with, or against your preference. One way you cheat yourself, the other way, you get 'prosecuted' by the homophobic society you live in. But if you're homosexual, you're not broken, and you can't be 'fixed'.

2) What does God, Hell or the Bible have to do with anything? This is the same mentality that led the holly Crusades, enslavement of the Gypsies, and many more massacres. The Bible is a big popular storybook, full of stories that relate to God (Christian, Jewish, and Muslim). Now there are a huge number of things in the Bible that we would find absolutely unthinkable to do, yet we chose to refer to the passages that say what is righteous in the eye of God. That's not very fair, as the Bible says anything we want it to.

3) Yes, male and female were intended to mate together. Otherwise we couldn't breed, and that would be the end of human kind. But many of the couples we see today don't want to breed, people who have been together for most of their lives and just don't want kids. They stay together either because out of convenience, or out of love, or a healthy mix of both. Whether these two people are of the same sex, or different sex shouldn't really matter.

And to go back to the topic of the new homophobia, I believe that the words of 'comfort' from a parent to a child that spell out the lines of 'homosexuals are people too', it just makes me think, Jee, why are you telling your kids this, as though maybe it could occur to them that they are not? This is what instills a shadow of doubt in the young minds that we forge. I think we would be headed in a better direction if we just explained to them what hetero and homosexuality is.

'Not in my house' and 'not my son' are being heard often despite the new preaching that 'homosexuals are people too'. I guess this comes from the fact that many people see homosexuality as a dysfunction, or a problem, more so, they see it all around them because it has become more open of a topic.

As for not wanting virgins, what's wrong with that. I now refuse all virgins that come my way (as they are a hassle to train despite their eagerness to please).

/soldari


there is no better way to say I love you than with the gift of a spatula!

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Do your ulcer a favor and get off that tangent, forgivness of sin is a different topic all together.Shot it in the foot right there matey - I have to ask *PERMISSION*???? Beg *FORGIVENESS*?

Think about what that means! Certainly doesn't mean it's fine and natural.

ps. no ulcer - remember i've lived with this since i was tiny (thanks to my name - cheers M+D - everyone's always assumed i was) so it's almost as run of the mill as discussing the weather

nexty...
quote:Again, they didnt just give up two virgins women, they said no we want to have sex with the men!Please show me the quote where they say they want to have sex. It says they want to know them. Y'know what - if I lived in a smalle olde timee city and two damn wierd fellows turned up i'd probably want to say hi and get to know them too

What makes you think that means they want to have sex?!? I normally do ok with a handshake

I sincerely beg you to consider this... I think it's really made you think which is a damn good thing and all that can really be asked

it's not hollow points - the church does teach that one should question the bible and it's healthy to do so - we're just not presuming that what we've been told is right. i'm no believer but i've done a lot of study into many faiths and variations and they have a lot more to teach via questioning than by blind belief

now that all sounded really strange so i'll blame the spliff and shuffle off...


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Do your ulcer a favor and get off that tangent, forgivness of sin is a different topic all together.Shot it in the foot right there matey - I have to ask *PERMISSION*???? Beg *FORGIVENESS*?

Think about what that means! Certainly doesn't mean it's fine and natural.

ps. no ulcer - remember i've lived with this since i was tiny (thanks to my name - cheers M+D - everyone's always assumed i was) so it's almost as run of the mill as discussing the weather

nexty...
quote:Again, they didnt just give up two virgins women, they said no we want to have sex with the men!Please show me the quote where they say they want to have sex. It says they want to know them. Y'know what - if I lived in a smalle olde timee city and two damn wierd fellows turned up i'd probably want to say hi and get to know them too

What makes you think that means they want to have sex?!? I normally do ok with a handshake

I sincerely beg you to consider this... I think it's really made you think which is a damn good thing and all that can really be asked

it's not hollow points - the church does teach that one should question the bible and it's healthy to do so - we're just not presuming that what we've been told is right. i'm no believer but i've done a lot of study into many faiths and variations and they have a lot more to teach via questioning than by blind belief

now that all sounded really strange so i'll blame the spliff and shuffle off...


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well in the NIV version, the one that I quoted, it does say that the men wanted to have sex with the two visiting men.

Now yall are not reading this right, this is not a debate on religion, I was asked why my opinion is what it is. I explained it, the debate is about homophobia, not does God think homosexuality is wrong.

Why should I continue to debate something that is off topic any longer?


I am not a Biblical schollar if you really want your quesitons answerd find a chruch, set up a meeting and ask your questions. I dont know everything nor am I about to sit here and play games with you all.


I ask you how many differnt umm for lack of a better word slang terms are there for sex?

I could probably name a good dozen or so right off the top of my head. And getting to know a chick would be in there... I dunno might be an American thing, I guess the rest of the world is so sexualy pure that the only thing they call sex is sex.

Coleman, granted there was more than just homosexuality that was wrong with Sodom, however, the problem with homosexuality was so big that it was worth mentioning in the Bible.

Wow, you used more than 4 cylable words, wow!


Here, you want to continue a debate about how I have formed an opinion and am seeking Biblical referance to back my opinion. Go read the Bible and prove me wrong. Show me text in the NIV (New International Version) where it says homosexuality is right.

Come on, try. I dare you.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:more than 4 syllables was that? sorry dude...

i done showed y'all i cun talk proper an all if i'm wantin too huh?
well gol-lee, i'm just spillin over i can't tell ya i'm so darn happy. we's havin us a real live convermasation!


back off to the tangent we were on...

quote: Coleman, granted there was more than just homosexuality that was wrong with Sodom, however, the problem with homosexuality was so big that it was worth mentioning in the Bible. if someone could point out exactly where it states homosexuality is a 'problem' then i think i could better understand the church's interpretation.
as far as i can see, nowhere does it say that god wiped out sodom because they were all gay - god is a fickle bastard and i don't comprehend how the church and it's scholars can presume to know his thoughts so well on homosexuality from these few ambiguous and sketchy verses.

but no ray, you are not a scholar and i am obviously not so bothered about devout christian beliefs as to go to a church and find one to debate this with.

quote: I will never support you in your actions, nor will I tolorate anyone taking actions against you. its a strange view, i don't get it but respect for that.

teehee - this just dropped in my inbox from cnn "-- Episcopal Church convention ratifies nomination of first openly gay bishop." it seems some parts of the church at least disagree with these interpretations...


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Obviusly you have yet to read everything that I have written. Go back and read, then maybe I will answer your questions.

Ya and alot of Catholic priests rape kids, know what?? The world is a ****ed up place. I would like to hear why they say that is okay for there to be a gay priest, honestly I dont have an answer.


I dont agree with Islam but why should someone be persicuted because of their religion? I dont agree with homosexuality but why should someone be persicuted just because of their sexual preferance? Is not agreeing with it suitable grounds for standing by while someone gets bashed on for being differnt from me?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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