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Forums > Social Chat > What happened to my baby today...

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Click here to see what happened to Charles' baby today...

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Yay!v congrats Charles!

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:lol.....

so, how did you find the PlastiBell method for your little one??


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Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:ow!!!

I'm not a boy and I'm crossing my legs!!!



It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Myste - Queen of the Badgers
mushroom! mushroom!
Location: Next to my badger
Member Since: 2nd May 2003
Total posts: 809
Posted:so the little baby boy has a plastic....
shoved up its....
for 4 days!?!?!

Now i know why we don't remember the first few years of life. And even so i'm very grateful i was born female!!

for Jakub!


I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it As you like it

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Cool, wish I'd had it that easy.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:disgusting genital mutilation.

sorry. that's what I think.


Magnus... pay it forward

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Flash...it went very well. I was present during the whole procedure, although admittedly I lost a lot of colour and thought several times about bolting out of the door.

He pretty much cried during the local and then was fine for the rest of it.

Myste... no, it's not shoved up anything really, it's placed underneath the foreskin and acts as tourniquet, instead of needing stitches.

DeepSoulSheep - Does this mean you have a bit of a story to share with us (or not)? I hope not really, but would be interested to know...

Magnus, you are, of course welcome to think that, but how about telling that to my cousin.

He had a number of infections that resulted in him having to be circumcised last year.

He was 14!!!!!

I know there are plenty of people out there who don't have any problems, but there are a reasonable group who do.

Call up your local health authority and find out how many adult or non-baby cirumcisions are performed each year. You might be a little shocked at the numbers...


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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:Teach your cousin to wash his penis?

Magnus... pay it forward

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Well I was "mulitlated" as Magnus so pleasantly puts it (subtle as ever dude ) fairly late in life and the pain was Fruitcakingly unbelievable. I think you're totally right in having it done. Cause the drawback are zero. Whereas the benefits are plently.

Every parent (I reckon) should (and generally do) try set their kids up as well as possible for when they are able to make their own choices. As long as decisions aren't going to make them worse off and lets face it, what would you want a useless piece of skin for. We don't run through nettles naked anymore.

Is getting you're tonsils out also unnecesary mutilation?


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Congrats to the family as this is obviously something you are proud of.
Did you keep the foreskin? I have run into some people who have. One lady even kept her son's in a locket

DeepSoulSheep, It's only unnecessary if it is done for no reason.
Tonsils are generally taken out (as are many body parts) only after frequent health issues are had with that part and it is concidered to be a risk or continuing issue to the well being of the person.
Circumcisions, in my opinion, should only be done in that case. I understand for the Jewish people it has some significance, and that I don't understand but can respect.

The number of people I know who are circumcised vs. not are generally split about (I never did the exact math) 60% yes and 40% no. With proper care the 40% has had no reoccuring issues, and that includes my son.

And Charles, the numbers doctors give are based on westernized notions too. Alot of men have it done because they feel women with think it "more attractive" or sexually appealing. There are also the myths that there is greater or lesser sensativity, generally an arguement for both ways, none of which can be proven. Not all non-infant circumcisions are health related. In fact, there are several that I read about which are religious conversion in nature.

I did ALOT of research (actual reading and talking to male friends) into this when Noah was younger, and decided against it, and that it is a choice for him to make. He has had no issues what-so-ever, ever, and I was told that if he was going to it would especially happen when he was in a diaper.
Yay for me being a woman!

Although it is recommended more for men who live in hot climates because of the rate of bacterial growth in those regions of the world, there is a greater likelihood of infection.
I think I am glad I was born a girl.

And, btw, the number of men not done outnumbers the amount that are, because, of course, modern statistics tend to leave out those who exist in more "tribal" and not as modern cultures.

Though if Noah, or anyone really, were to have it done, in the West Indies there is an oil/paste that is applied that deadens the foreskin and makes it whither and fall off naturally and painlessly over the course of about a week. This is how my friends brother was done and he commented he would've never had it done otherwise.

I think I know too much on the topic.
Did I mention this is one of those times that I really like being a woman?!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:How can you say the drawbacks are zero? Tell that to my brother who has to masturbate using vaseline.

Magnus... pay it forward

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:teach your brother to attract a partner?

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:I accept the tonsils thing as being different but I was told I should have mine out about 2 years ago and I was told to have my wisdom teeth out over a year ago. I don't intend on doing either because I don't deem it necessary and I don't like pain. The reason I was circumsized was because my wasn't able to pull my forskin back at the age of 11.

If my parents could have circumsized me, removed my tonsils and my wisdom teeth, when I wouldn't have felt a thing, I don't think I'd be resentfull or feel like I've missed out on something.

Magnus, your brother doesn't have to use vaseline, he just likes it that way, I'm glad you guys talk about that kinda stuff though, was he complaining about it then?


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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SaBBaS
enthusiast
Location: Madrid, Spain
Member Since: 4th Jan 2002
Total posts: 215
Posted:wow, as always a fascincating topic on HoP !!
charles, congrats, here's one on the baby
i had mine done for the same cause as DSS and i have felt absolutely no drawbacks. i'm really glad i had it done at a pretty young age, people who get it done later (specially puberty) and with surgery have to go around everywhere with a bag of ice for some time, specially when women are around. you know, you dont' want the stitches blowing around
magnus, i have to agree with DSS, your brother doesn't need vaseline, just a bit of practice... well, i guess this is the right moment to stop before i give out too much information here...


Don't you destroy your enemy by making him your friend?? - Rev Bem (Magog), Andromeda

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:100% all natural, yea!

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I was circumcized at birth because my foreskin had not separated from my scrotum. I wish I had been luckier because I miss my foreskin. If I ever have kids I am teaching them how to wash themselves properly, not just arbitrarily chopping
their genitals up.

Why don't we remove tonsils and appendixes at birth while were at it? Because it's silly to chop babies up for no good reason unless there is immediate nescicity. Personally I believe in holding out on surgery such as wisdome teach removal and tonsil removal untill it is deemed neccesary that not removing them could cause major problems. I am kind of disturbed by this policy of chopping things out at the first sign of a problem (or at no sign of a problem, like dentists do with wisdome teeth and doctors do with babies foreskin)


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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:First of all I have to say congratulations Charles since this is an important event in a religious and cultural path of life.

i have to say some of the stuff said here i found very interesting. I never thought it would raise such different opinions. but then again in france noone ever gets circumsized for other reasons than religious or emergency health issues unlike the USA.

i personnaly have nothing particularly against it be it medical or religious (allthough i am really disturbed by cultures where it is religiously done as an initiation part of a man s life when the kid turns 12 or 13

On the other hand I have the utter disrespect for excision, removal of clitoris , which is still practiced a lot in africa AND in african communities within countries like France. it is neither religious nor mdical, just a mean to kill women s desire and pleasure and tame them.

I have always tried hard to respect any costum and tradition and try NOT to let my western BIIIIG ego get in the way of "i know what is right" but that i confess has always been beyond my power to respect. in fact there are many many women within african communitie who now fight this barbaric tradition from within... Much much respect for those women

hmmm so did I get a bit off topic here ? sorry

shine on and hugs to you and your family
Cass


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:Hmm, I wondered when someone would mention female circumsion. It's a bit different, though I agree with all Cassandra's points.

A lot of this argument is subjective. Maybe an uncut penis looks better than kidney-bean style. Maybe there is a loss of sensitivity, maybe there isn't.

There is really only one reason why foreskins get cut off in developed countries, and that's HABIT. If you were circumcised, and your father was circumcised, and your brother was circumcised, well, it's only natural that you will get your son circumcised.

But it's a hangover from a time long gone. There's no doubt that in the past it helped personal hygiene to get your foreskin cut off, and this idea (much like not eating pork) was hijacked by a bunch of religious people who gave the process a meaning it should never have had.

It just depresses me that people can't take a step back and question something that they've grown up with. eg my girlfriend has gone fox hunting since an early age, and has been brought up to believe it's ok.

If there was no such thing as circumcision, if there had been no cause in the past to do it for hygiene reasons, and if the idea hadn't been adopted by various religious groups, anyone cutting off part of their newborns penis would be locked up for child abuse, and rightly so.


Magnus... pay it forward

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:You're probably right about the if nobody had ever done it.....but to call it
quote:disgusting genital mutilation.is to try and put in on a par with female circumcision which is quite simply ridiculous.

You yourself have said that it's hangover from a necessity which is now redundant. Does that make it disgusting? Don't get depressed Magnus, I am very open minded and always take a step back, but...... I like being circumcised and I was circumcised out of necessity, not designer choice. We are not talking about it in the right of passage, african teenager getting 2 rocks smashed together sense.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:In your case it seems we are talking about BBQ sauce on foreskin+ants rite of passage.

Resulting in wild dancing.


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Kaji
Kaji

Quantum Theorist
Location: Vansterdam
Member Since: 12th Dec 2002
Total posts: 564
Posted:I don't agree with the procedure at all. Some of you have said there are no draw backs well I can tell you there are plenty. Both my parents were nurses and I have heard lots of horror stories about it.
some facts:
- More complications ocur in life with a circumsized penis then one that isn't
- Not circumsizing is considered the healthiest way by Canadian doctors
- Now only done in Canada for religious reasons
- There is significantly less pleasure for a circumsized male durling intercourse
- The only thing with an uncircumsized penis is you must wash it with the rest of your body when you have that daily shower. That includes under the foreskin.
- the skin on the head of the penis (if circumsized) can become hard and crusty causing pain. Pain for the parter too with intercourse as tearing of the vaginal walls can occur

Myself I am 100% natural down there and plan to stay that way. And if I am blessed with a male child later in life so to will he. I personaly think that circumsizion is no different than clitorectomies (sp?) (removal of the clitorus). And i don't think any of the ladies here would want there clitorus cut off.

[ 03. July 2003, 07:23: Message edited by: DJ Dimples [Frost] ]


In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Hey magnuns.... I know a lot of guys with foreskin who still need lube to mastrubate comfortably. I also know quite a few circumcised guys who don't need lube at all. So don't make blanket generalizations, it depends on the guy.

As for whether or not it takes away from pleasure, i wonder if that's really the reason? I've certainly never heard a circumsized guy complain, and i just went to ask one and he said if he got any significant amount more pleasure during intercourse he thought he'd get off in two minutes! So.... generalizations? There's likely other explanations for people who have trouble than just the blanket fact of missing foreskin. I'm sure if a circumcision is screwed up it would cause problems, but I didn't think that's what we were talking about?


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Heh he heh...I wasn't expecting this can of worms to open up quite so soon.

But, Have you noticed that this debate (in official medical circles) is very similar to the Genesis/Evolotion debate?

Not in the facts or the religious background, but simply from the fact that those who are arguing for or against very seldom have an open mind. They tend to have one point of view, and pursue that point with all the ammunition they have. It is such an emotive topic, that emotions are much easier to see than in other contentious arguments.

quote: There is significantly less pleasure for a circumsized male durling intercourse

Theres quite a few more but, if you look at these statements from a anthropoligical point of view, you would see that there is no way that these can be used as 'facts'.

The first, as already aluded to is a totally fake statistic. There is no way to test whether a circumcised men feel less (or more!) pleasure than uncircumcised. Just as there is no way to compare pleasure levels between individuals, there just isn't any way of scientifically comparing actual pain, versus pain threshholds, versus other anatomical reasons for differing results.

And then, you need to split up the different circumcision techniques into groups, the into what ages they were performed at, the race and general demographics of each individual in the study. It is juts not possible to have any scientific result in this area as yet.

quote: It just depresses me that people can't take a step back and question something that they've grown up with. Somyou assum, with no way of knowing, that I just blindly decided my little man, whom I love more than my life itself, should go through this procedure? You are WRONG!

Like Pele, I did a lot of research, into health reasons, historical reasons, and also the way he might feel about it later in life, as well as the chance of it needing to be done later too.

It would pay to think on your words and what they say about your own thought processes and the people they are aimed at before posting them in the 'heat of the moment'. Just my opinion of course.

quote: if the idea hadn't been adopted by various religious groups. Now this really is a can of worms...Are you basing a point about circumcision on the fact that God doesn't exist, that He did not instruct his followers to circurmcise themselves and that any ritual or process used by a religious group has been 'adopted' rather than a holy instruction?

Now come on, I know that's not what you meant to say, but that it one of the premises to come out of that statement.


I'm obviously leaning towards the pro-circumcision side, but I HAVE considered many things into my decision. I find it interesting that some people believe in false statements and that they know my motiviations with barely a shred of evidence to go on.

Anyway, I look forward to continuing this debate...


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:If you do, you do

If you dont, then I will buy you a pint.


one word: OUCH.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:We no longer recommend routine infant circumcision in the U.S. because the benefits of circumcision (decreased infection rates, decreased cancer rates) are exactly balanced by the risks of circumcision ("accidental penectomy").

However, because most men in the U.S. are circumcised, most dads want their kids circumcised. I'm circumcised because I'm Jewish.

Now, there are people who claim that it robs the penis of sensation and makes sex less pleasurable. The fact is that sex isn't just about the penis. It has been demonstrated that firing rates in the median forebrain bundle (the so-called "pleasure pathway of the brain") are identical in circumcised and uncircumcised men during intercourse.

So, while we don't recommend it (because when given 50/50 odds, you err on the side of not doing a procedure), we have no problem doing it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Lightning...Is that figure of 50/50 across all methods and recent/current stats.

I've looked at a number of different sets of data, most of it being from the 50's to the late 80's.

After then, a few new types of procedure, particularly turniquet style techniques (like this plastibell one on the link above), the stats seem (i never quite trust stats anyway) to show that the risks have dropped a huge percentage.

However, most studies are including the older data as part of the statistics and, especially as circumcision has dropped off (no pun intended!) remarkably in the last 15 years, the older stats will take decades to be affected by the new ones.

I'm sorry, I know I'm gabbling on with my emotions just like veryone else, but I have always found it hard to accept a blanket summary of statistics without seeing the stats myself.

Its one of my major persoanlity quirks...


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* Is it the Truth?
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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:I never said there was more or less pleasure for the man.

Never said I didn't believe in God either, but surely he had reason to give men foreskins in the first place.


Magnus... pay it forward

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King Of Bongo
King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Dec 2002
Total posts: 522
Posted:Charles, can we move this to the war forum? hehehe...

Don't know about less pleasure for men (I wouldn't know, but I'm more than happy with my hoodless one-eyed trouser snake ) but I have heard from several reliable sources/women that it gives them more pleasure...

any pearls of wisdom ladies?


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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SaBBaS
enthusiast
Location: Madrid, Spain
Member Since: 4th Jan 2002
Total posts: 215
Posted:charles, you sum it all up pretty well, i would just like to add some things:

- i think most of the people arguing against it don't think about the cases when it needs to be done, for example fimosis. i don't know how the treatments are now, but i think the most common think is to chop.

- the pleasure "fact", as charles said, is absurd, there are too many factors involved, and many of them are psychological, so they can vary very much.

- frost, how can you say it's no different to the removal of the clitoris?? i think there is quite a difference between removing a bit of skin that is not involved in any (proven) way in the pleasure of intercourse, and removing the main source of female sexual pleasure.

- for what KoB said, i don't believe women feel more pleasure with or without hood (hehehe,sounds like that U2 song... ), as with the erection they all look pretty much the same, or at least i think so.

- mike: "accidental penectomy"???? my god, that is not an accident, that's a CRIME!!!


Don't you destroy your enemy by making him your friend?? - Rev Bem (Magog), Andromeda

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Gandhi Ganjamaster
member

Member Since: 30th Aug 2002
Total posts: 299
Posted:circumsition - precarious subject.

move your fingers on the back of your hand - sensation as with circumsised penis

move your fingers in palm of hand -
sensation as with "all natural" penis

- that's how a crusader against circumsition (and a midwife/herbalist) likes to descibe the difference.

this means uncircumsised man don't quite have to bang so hard (and hurt their women) to feel good.


a friend with a son chose to have him circumsised. she said she rather had that done than risk him having to have an amputation as has happened to soldiers for example who've had to spend time in moors and jungles up to their waists.

to the ones not raising warriors - teach your sons to wash themselves.


Why?

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