Forums > Technical Discussion > Cookie Cutters - diss and get dissed for spinning "pick and mix"?
Login/Join to ParticipateStargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Cookie Cutter Spinners! beware of the great cookie munching monster!
Please excuse if there's another thread about this topic, I dun a search but couldn't find any.
Further please have patience and forgive me, if you feel in any way offended, either because you identify yourself as a "cookie cutter" yourself or find yourself quoted (completely out of context of the rest of your statement/ thread).
To me the term is absolutely new, I stumbled across it term in a few comments/ posts, like:
Originally Posted By: ...the problem of 'cookie cutter spinners'
Originally Posted By: ....learn the moves they like as-is, which leads to "cookie cutter" styles as discussed above.
Originally Posted By: .....so, for example, If you are in a one-off tricks based workshop (...) where there is no holistic approach, and the students intentions are mainly to go and learn tricks, then you are setting up for cookie cutter spinners.
Originally Posted By: .....I think the Cookie-Cutter spinner tendency is not necessarily down to workshops, but down to the general enormous growth in spinning as a whole, and, with that growth, a the introduction of 'fashion' into spinning - where you do something because 'everyone does it'.
Originally Posted By: .......Not that I'm against cookie cutter spinners, if there were more yuta clones out there life for a choreographer would be heaps easier hey.
Originally Posted By: ...........So whilst it may seem we generate a bunch of cookie cutter spinners from a trick based workshop, in the long term those same people may well integrate the movements into a personal style over time, and continue an exploration process on their own, breaking down the "trick" into concepts and components long after the workshop has ended.
Originally Posted By: .........Firstly the name cookie cutter is a totally new one on me and whilst i can guess what it means a deeper explanation would be great wink
Noel, I have no thoughts that you would ever want to stifle creativity and know you love what you do, i also wouldn't want to discourage you or anyone else from be techie online, however i feel like the populist thoughts and norms are leaning towards a more technical/generic approach to spinning and often feel i should try and help maintain a healthy balance
Originally Posted By: ..........Use the same cookie cutter on 100 different hunks of dough and each time you're going to get something practically the same.
Originally Posted By: ........I've found in general that people who really want to push the envelope will do so anyway, those that don't have the passion for creativity are probably a lot happier being cookie cutter spinners, it really depends on what you personally want out of it.
Originally Posted By: .........Is it even possible be a cookie cutter spinner? Maybe. It's really hard not to let your own style shine through. Even if you just stand in one place while doing ultra tech moves, you still have style.
Originally Posted By: ..............It is indeed possible to become a cookie cutter spinner, if you watch enough of a short base of spinners, steal movements from their routines theres a good chance you'll end up modelling your own movement off theirs.
Originally Posted By: .............In fact, its quite natural to be a cookie cutter spinner in your early-intermediate development. During the intermediate development its quite possible to teach people in a much different way. Rather than teaching movements you teach a concept and apply it to known movements.
Originally Posted By: ...........In short, without actually seeing a different way of spinning, it is very hard to let any sort of creativity shine through, unless their heads are wired in the right way to want to try new things, which many people are not. (Compare how many people spin [well] and how many actually push the boundaries and innovate.)
So yeah, cookie cutter is possible for many people.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1261474635)
EDIT_REASON: titler ; )
Cookie Cutter Spinners! beware of the great cookie munching monster!
Please excuse if there's another thread about this topic, I dun a search but couldn't find any.
Further please have patience and forgive me, if you feel in any way offended, either because you identify yourself as a "cookie cutter" yourself or find yourself quoted (completely out of context of the rest of your statement/ thread).
To me the term is absolutely new, I stumbled across it term in a few comments/ posts, like:
Originally Posted By: ...the problem of 'cookie cutter spinners'
Originally Posted By: ....learn the moves they like as-is, which leads to "cookie cutter" styles as discussed above.
Originally Posted By: .....so, for example, If you are in a one-off tricks based workshop (...) where there is no holistic approach, and the students intentions are mainly to go and learn tricks, then you are setting up for cookie cutter spinners.
Originally Posted By: .....I think the Cookie-Cutter spinner tendency is not necessarily down to workshops, but down to the general enormous growth in spinning as a whole, and, with that growth, a the introduction of 'fashion' into spinning - where you do something because 'everyone does it'.
Originally Posted By: .......Not that I'm against cookie cutter spinners, if there were more yuta clones out there life for a choreographer would be heaps easier hey.
Originally Posted By: ...........So whilst it may seem we generate a bunch of cookie cutter spinners from a trick based workshop, in the long term those same people may well integrate the movements into a personal style over time, and continue an exploration process on their own, breaking down the "trick" into concepts and components long after the workshop has ended.
Originally Posted By: .........Firstly the name cookie cutter is a totally new one on me and whilst i can guess what it means a deeper explanation would be great wink
Noel, I have no thoughts that you would ever want to stifle creativity and know you love what you do, i also wouldn't want to discourage you or anyone else from be techie online, however i feel like the populist thoughts and norms are leaning towards a more technical/generic approach to spinning and often feel i should try and help maintain a healthy balance
Originally Posted By: ..........Use the same cookie cutter on 100 different hunks of dough and each time you're going to get something practically the same.
Originally Posted By: ........I've found in general that people who really want to push the envelope will do so anyway, those that don't have the passion for creativity are probably a lot happier being cookie cutter spinners, it really depends on what you personally want out of it.
Originally Posted By: .........Is it even possible be a cookie cutter spinner? Maybe. It's really hard not to let your own style shine through. Even if you just stand in one place while doing ultra tech moves, you still have style.
Originally Posted By: ..............It is indeed possible to become a cookie cutter spinner, if you watch enough of a short base of spinners, steal movements from their routines theres a good chance you'll end up modelling your own movement off theirs.
Originally Posted By: .............In fact, its quite natural to be a cookie cutter spinner in your early-intermediate development. During the intermediate development its quite possible to teach people in a much different way. Rather than teaching movements you teach a concept and apply it to known movements.
Originally Posted By: ...........In short, without actually seeing a different way of spinning, it is very hard to let any sort of creativity shine through, unless their heads are wired in the right way to want to try new things, which many people are not. (Compare how many people spin [well] and how many actually push the boundaries and innovate.)
So yeah, cookie cutter is possible for many people.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1261474635)
EDIT_REASON: titler ; )
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
oh - and I didn't quote the names because I ripped the parts completely out of context. I don't like to offend anyone, that's why I kept it anonymous.
Personally I feel there is a lot of .... well I'm not sure how to put it without opening a can of worms.
Going back in time I was looking for moves... not for an ideology in spinning. Admittedly I took those moves I liked and assembled them in the order I liked to spin them - so
YES! I AT LEAST HAVE BEEN A COOKIE CUTTER AT SOME STAGE OF MY DEVELOPMENT. (no worries I don't feel offended by your comments, mainly because:)
Back in the days... 2002 in Koh Phangan, there's been a gifted Thai spinner by the name of "Art" and I remember at least one of the best spinners around today has been his student... as I remember not as much learning the entirety but individual moves. I noticed this reflecting in his style for a couple of years.
So what's the point? Today this student is a semi god of poi, developed his own style and way of teaching and people are happy to attend his workshops anywhere on the planet.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1261204592)
EDIT_REASON: winks
oh - and I didn't quote the names because I ripped the parts completely out of context. I don't like to offend anyone, that's why I kept it anonymous.
Personally I feel there is a lot of .... well I'm not sure how to put it without opening a can of worms.
Going back in time I was looking for moves... not for an ideology in spinning. Admittedly I took those moves I liked and assembled them in the order I liked to spin them - so
YES! I AT LEAST HAVE BEEN A COOKIE CUTTER AT SOME STAGE OF MY DEVELOPMENT. (no worries I don't feel offended by your comments, mainly because:)
Back in the days... 2002 in Koh Phangan, there's been a gifted Thai spinner by the name of "Art" and I remember at least one of the best spinners around today has been his student... as I remember not as much learning the entirety but individual moves. I noticed this reflecting in his style for a couple of years.
So what's the point? Today this student is a semi god of poi, developed his own style and way of teaching and people are happy to attend his workshops anywhere on the planet.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1261204592)
EDIT_REASON: winks
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
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1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
Just as my two cents, and because I'm Posty McPosterson tonight, I think there's an extent to which over-arching concepts are inappropriate to a beginner. I mean, even n00bs should try and figure out bigger principles as they go, but ultimately there's only so much of that one can tackle without the technical skills to meaningfully deal with the principles.
A lot of things I learned as tricks I now conceive of as tools, but I don't think I could have looked at them in that light without learning it as a trick, then learning another trick that made use of some of the important features of the first. Weaves gave me a lot of the principles I use for keeping my poi in motion and moving them around my body; learning to do one kind of stall gave me a grasp of how to use stalls in a more general fashion; meltdowns gave me a lot of important ideas for certain kinds of turns, and crossers gave me more freedom with where I can place my poi and keep spinning.
I suppose it's possible to get stuck as a "cookie cutter spinner", but I also think it's a normal and healthy stage of learning to go through (as I think the original poster recognizes). But my further point is that I think the ability to be an "ideological spinner" is built on some necessarily piecemeal foundations (though it certainly seems that it could be the case that the standard "tricks" are not actually the best pieces to start from).
Just as my two cents, and because I'm Posty McPosterson tonight, I think there's an extent to which over-arching concepts are inappropriate to a beginner. I mean, even n00bs should try and figure out bigger principles as they go, but ultimately there's only so much of that one can tackle without the technical skills to meaningfully deal with the principles.
A lot of things I learned as tricks I now conceive of as tools, but I don't think I could have looked at them in that light without learning it as a trick, then learning another trick that made use of some of the important features of the first. Weaves gave me a lot of the principles I use for keeping my poi in motion and moving them around my body; learning to do one kind of stall gave me a grasp of how to use stalls in a more general fashion; meltdowns gave me a lot of important ideas for certain kinds of turns, and crossers gave me more freedom with where I can place my poi and keep spinning.
I suppose it's possible to get stuck as a "cookie cutter spinner", but I also think it's a normal and healthy stage of learning to go through (as I think the original poster recognizes). But my further point is that I think the ability to be an "ideological spinner" is built on some necessarily piecemeal foundations (though it certainly seems that it could be the case that the standard "tricks" are not actually the best pieces to start from).
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SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
I first ran into the term "cookie cutter" when playing WoW and looking for tallent builds
I first ran into the term "cookie cutter" when playing WoW and looking for tallent builds
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Like most anything, poi is prone to trends. Hands up anyone whose NOT working on orbitals right now, or wallplane flowers.
Like most anything, poi is prone to trends. Hands up anyone whose NOT working on orbitals right now, or wallplane flowers.
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
*puts hand up*
I was doing those about 2 years ago
*puts hand up*
I was doing those about 2 years ago
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Yes, my point exactly. These moves/patterns have been around for years but I've only noticed them becoming "popular' in the past year or so. Maybe it has something to do with my mew found habit of going to YouTube and clicking on random videos ?
I'm seeing way more of these in recent times than I did two years ago.
Yes, my point exactly. These moves/patterns have been around for years but I've only noticed them becoming "popular' in the past year or so. Maybe it has something to do with my mew found habit of going to YouTube and clicking on random videos ?
I'm seeing way more of these in recent times than I did two years ago.
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
why I started spinning? because it intrigued me... I never thought that I would get the hang of it this fast. And that's why I continued to do it. The tickle of left-right brain coordination, body movement and exercise... got hooked after the fist burn over the playful "control" of fire...
Why did I learn individual moves?
Because they look nice from the outside... and I want to feel them on the inside.
why I started spinning? because it intrigued me... I never thought that I would get the hang of it this fast. And that's why I continued to do it. The tickle of left-right brain coordination, body movement and exercise... got hooked after the fist burn over the playful "control" of fire...
Why did I learn individual moves?
Because they look nice from the outside... and I want to feel them on the inside.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
Hmmmm....
I am somewhat different to a lot of people here (I think) because I have almost no contact with spinners face to face. Once I learned the basics from the guy who introduced things to me, we sort of went our own ways.
I have always looked for new moves, which I have tried to put into my own framework of how poi works. So I will take moves and look at how they fit into concepts.
Also, I suspect that I spin fairly differently to many people due to lack of cross-fertilisation with others. There is no one around me to actually learn much from, at least in terms of how or what I spin. On a technical level, I am streets ahead of everyone I have seen. (I know this does not necessarily make me a better spinner.)
So yes, I will happily cookie cut some new moves out, but hopefully I will be able to use them in my own way. Which is all that anyone really can do in my opinion.
Hmmmm....
I am somewhat different to a lot of people here (I think) because I have almost no contact with spinners face to face. Once I learned the basics from the guy who introduced things to me, we sort of went our own ways.
I have always looked for new moves, which I have tried to put into my own framework of how poi works. So I will take moves and look at how they fit into concepts.
Also, I suspect that I spin fairly differently to many people due to lack of cross-fertilisation with others. There is no one around me to actually learn much from, at least in terms of how or what I spin. On a technical level, I am streets ahead of everyone I have seen. (I know this does not necessarily make me a better spinner.)
So yes, I will happily cookie cut some new moves out, but hopefully I will be able to use them in my own way. Which is all that anyone really can do in my opinion.
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
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Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Quote:So yes, I will happily cookie cut some new moves out, but hopefully I will be able to use them in my own way.
Same same..
I'll learn a move and as soon as i do, I try to figure out a smooth way into, and out of it as well as things to do with it as well. As a for instance, entering and exiting atomics. stall? one hand wrap? plane bend? wall/wheel plane? or wheel/ceiling?
Quote:So yes, I will happily cookie cut some new moves out, but hopefully I will be able to use them in my own way.
Same same..
I'll learn a move and as soon as i do, I try to figure out a smooth way into, and out of it as well as things to do with it as well. As a for instance, entering and exiting atomics. stall? one hand wrap? plane bend? wall/wheel plane? or wheel/ceiling?
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Magic Monkey Juice
252 posts
Location: Saaf Ingerland Innet, England (UK)
Magic Monkey Juice
252 posts
Location: Saaf Ingerland Innet, England (UK)
Posted:
I think everyone starts off like that, I learned weave then butterfly, and would go from one to other, thn windmill, thinking I was the tits being able to do one smoothly then another, then extentions and isolations helpped crack it a bit for me
It seems to be something everyone goes through... I don't know anyone who has learned a weave then gone "Oh I can do it like this, and this and if i do X then it has Y effect" etc.
I think I used to fit into the "Cookie Cutter" term. I had watched Encyclopoidia, Adventures In Poi and Scales of Poi. It wasn't until the last few months I have really founf my "own" style. I will watch people spinning, in life or videos, see parts of their performance that I like and work my own way of playing with it and putting it with things.
EDITED_BY: T-S-A (1261445459)
I think everyone starts off like that, I learned weave then butterfly, and would go from one to other, thn windmill, thinking I was the tits being able to do one smoothly then another, then extentions and isolations helpped crack it a bit for me
It seems to be something everyone goes through... I don't know anyone who has learned a weave then gone "Oh I can do it like this, and this and if i do X then it has Y effect" etc.
I think I used to fit into the "Cookie Cutter" term. I had watched Encyclopoidia, Adventures In Poi and Scales of Poi. It wasn't until the last few months I have really founf my "own" style. I will watch people spinning, in life or videos, see parts of their performance that I like and work my own way of playing with it and putting it with things.
EDITED_BY: T-S-A (1261445459)
"We were making castles in the sand: Now we swim in the seas that swept them away"
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I don't see a problem with "cookie cutters" at all - especially since (I'd guess) most spinners start(ed) like that at some time...
I'm only wondering why so many "old hands" seem to be dissing them...
I don't see a problem with "cookie cutters" at all - especially since (I'd guess) most spinners start(ed) like that at some time...
I'm only wondering why so many "old hands" seem to be dissing them...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
*cough* thinks that TJF is playing with fire
"old hands" as in "quite famous and reknown"
*cough* thinks that TJF is playing with fire
"old hands" as in "quite famous and reknown"
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
To be fair, some people like to just dance while spinning stuff around, and I think it's fair to let them call themselves spinners. It's not like everyone who calls themselves a spinner automatically aspires to be the next Nevisoul (though I do, so watch out, Thomas :p).
To be fair, some people like to just dance while spinning stuff around, and I think it's fair to let them call themselves spinners. It's not like everyone who calls themselves a spinner automatically aspires to be the next Nevisoul (though I do, so watch out, Thomas :p).
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SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
A valid point, but then what would you define as a spinner?
Someone who can do a weave and a butterfly?
Someone who can do that and make it look good?
Someone trying to improve constantly?
Someone who has reached a level where they can do most things easily?
As for myself, I find the lack of people willing to try and push around me annoying. Not that they are not able to do what they do well, but that they are not trying to learn new things. Or if they are, it really is only a move or two, not something bigger to use for themselves. *shrug*
A valid point, but then what would you define as a spinner?
Someone who can do a weave and a butterfly?
Someone who can do that and make it look good?
Someone trying to improve constantly?
Someone who has reached a level where they can do most things easily?
As for myself, I find the lack of people willing to try and push around me annoying. Not that they are not able to do what they do well, but that they are not trying to learn new things. Or if they are, it really is only a move or two, not something bigger to use for themselves. *shrug*
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
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Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
Well, I think my own answer is I'd call someone a spinner if they can make the poi spin to a beat and can turn while spinning. On the whole I'm not sure why I should expect someone to want out of spinning what I want out of it, or why I should frown on someone who doesn't.
You also again touch upon a point I was attempting to make above: at a certain point it's not easy to conceive of what "something bigger" might actually be. And nothing really guarantees that your bigger picture will mean anything to them. (I can't tell you how often I hear really good tech spinners' advice and go "yes, that's all technically true, but what bearing does it have on anything?")
Well, I think my own answer is I'd call someone a spinner if they can make the poi spin to a beat and can turn while spinning. On the whole I'm not sure why I should expect someone to want out of spinning what I want out of it, or why I should frown on someone who doesn't.
You also again touch upon a point I was attempting to make above: at a certain point it's not easy to conceive of what "something bigger" might actually be. And nothing really guarantees that your bigger picture will mean anything to them. (I can't tell you how often I hear really good tech spinners' advice and go "yes, that's all technically true, but what bearing does it have on anything?")
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GOLD Member
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Posted:
I saw this, here's my input. First info on me: I started with weaves and butterfly, I started like a cookie cutter until I had enough things so that I could move around and I immediately took myself and pranced around spinning and it was great. I learned more things and as I learned I did and still am gaining more freedom of movement. But now that it is cold, I am stuck in here learning like a cookie cutter, but when I do go outside I try to dance with it if I have music to dance to. And on another not, since doing poi, I can now dance I learned hyperloops and orbitals because I saw it in a fire video and it caught my eye and am glad I learned it I am still exploring with them a little and have in the past learned the vertical orbital, and recently learned a btb hyperloop. Why do I learn these? I didn't know it was a fad or something, I just did it because it was fun and I still love them, and there is nothing wrong with learning and exploring something if you think it is fun. As I am now every once in a while work a minute or so working on btb hyperloops and trying a btb orbital (not succeeded yet)
As for my thought on cookie cutter spinners: People will start on it, but I think that once they know enough to free up some movement, and immediately learn to explore it. But, I think when you start to get into technical spinning, fire poi starts to loose that beauty that is brought by the simplicity of it. And it starts to look more like something off the street. There is nothing wrong with cookie cutting, but it is just so much more fun and much better looking when you get out of it, which is why I want to go out and stab the snow. Also, orbitals are great because you can play with them so much and it you can pull it out of nowhere with no setup like you do a buzzsaw. And for tech spinning, there's nothing wrong with it, when you learn all the other things, and you have to move on, it's a great way to go, but I don't like seeing it with fire because as I said, it just looses its beauty.
I saw this, here's my input. First info on me: I started with weaves and butterfly, I started like a cookie cutter until I had enough things so that I could move around and I immediately took myself and pranced around spinning and it was great. I learned more things and as I learned I did and still am gaining more freedom of movement. But now that it is cold, I am stuck in here learning like a cookie cutter, but when I do go outside I try to dance with it if I have music to dance to. And on another not, since doing poi, I can now dance
I learned hyperloops and orbitals because I saw it in a fire video and it caught my eye and am glad I learned it I am still exploring with them a little and have in the past learned the vertical orbital, and recently learned a btb hyperloop. Why do I learn these? I didn't know it was a fad or something, I just did it because it was fun and I still love them, and there is nothing wrong with learning and exploring something if you think it is fun. As I am now every once in a while work a minute or so working on btb hyperloops and trying a btb orbital (not succeeded yet)As for my thought on cookie cutter spinners: People will start on it, but I think that once they know enough to free up some movement, and immediately learn to explore it. But, I think when you start to get into technical spinning, fire poi starts to loose that beauty that is brought by the simplicity of it. And it starts to look more like something off the street. There is nothing wrong with cookie cutting, but it is just so much more fun and much better looking when you get out of it, which is why I want to go out and stab the snow. Also, orbitals are great because you can play with them so much and it you can pull it out of nowhere with no setup like you do a buzzsaw. And for tech spinning, there's nothing wrong with it, when you learn all the other things, and you have to move on, it's a great way to go, but I don't like seeing it with fire because as I said, it just looses its beauty.
The only luck is bad luck.
Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass
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Location: Lower Mantle, USA
20% more: DIET ASBESTOS©
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Location: Lower Mantle, USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: This Jaded Fleshso wait... What are we classing cookies cutters as again?
Precisely!
Originally Posted By: This Jaded Fleshso wait... What are we classing cookies cutters as again?
Precisely!
GOLD Member
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Posted:
Why as beginners I believe, or people stuck in "beginner mode"
That's all I can make out of it
Why as beginners I believe, or people stuck in "beginner mode"
That's all I can make out of it
The only luck is bad luck.
Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
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Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
Is mostly what they want out of it in my view. Also, it depends on exposure to other people and ways of thinking.
When I started, there were a fair few people at Rhodes. I did not get to meets since they were a bad time for me so I learned on my own.
When I did get to see them, I spun very differently. They all had a fairly similar style of spinning since they had been learning together. So an outsider could have seen them as cookie-cutting I guess, although all that was really happening was that they had no outside input.
(Also, few of them had much of a drive to really learn something new, so while I got stuff from them, they did not get much from me.)
Is mostly what they want out of it in my view. Also, it depends on exposure to other people and ways of thinking.
When I started, there were a fair few people at Rhodes. I did not get to meets since they were a bad time for me so I learned on my own.
When I did get to see them, I spun very differently. They all had a fairly similar style of spinning since they had been learning together. So an outsider could have seen them as cookie-cutting I guess, although all that was really happening was that they had no outside input.
(Also, few of them had much of a drive to really learn something new, so while I got stuff from them, they did not get much from me.)
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Originally Posted By: This Jaded FleshWell we're getting closer to a better question are we not? What would I define the differences between spinners? Not quite sure I'll have to sit and think about it. Does making a definition between 'cookie cutter' and 'true spinner' really matter? that's something each must ask. First place of call would be asking the oldest of the spinners this question. Only they will know what they as persons have changed into regarding spinning. Maybe there's not a difference but we won't know without asking such questions.
I'm not one of the oldest, but take it from me: if the term "cookie cutter" is fun to use - so be it... if it's a class distinction - dodge it.
Spinning should be fun - and remain as such. Once you loose yourself in it you may actually find something... but IMHO that's not some place you can actively go but a state of mind you might suddenly find yourself in... when it is already past. It can be quite empowering but is nothing to hold on to.
I'm not deeming myself a very good spinner or inventor of moves... Is it an invention to take the staff and spin it on top of your head without having seen anyone do it? Is it an invention to start dancing, not making much moves but "adoring" the flames of your staff as if they were a lover? IMNSHO it isn't - because I have seen other people come up with the very same ideas, completely independently.
Which made me realize that ideas in my head actually are not "uniquely attached to my own neurons"... I'm merely a part of a network, call it morphogenetic field or whatever.
Have I personally changed anything in regards of spinning? Did I have an impact on spinning culture? Would the answer to that question actually change anything in my attitude towards others or in the attitude of others towards me? If that is a "Yes" - then "Y"? Am I more of a human being because I changed something, had an impact? Or am I less one because I didn't?
Originally Posted By: This Jaded FleshWell we're getting closer to a better question are we not?
What would I define the differences between spinners? Not quite sure I'll have to sit and think about it. Does making a definition between 'cookie cutter' and 'true spinner' really matter? that's something each must ask. First place of call would be asking the oldest of the spinners this question. Only they will know what they as persons have changed into regarding spinning. Maybe there's not a difference but we won't know without asking such questions. I'm not one of the oldest, but take it from me: if the term "cookie cutter" is fun to use - so be it... if it's a class distinction - dodge it.
Spinning should be fun - and remain as such. Once you loose yourself in it you may actually find something... but IMHO that's not some place you can actively go but a state of mind you might suddenly find yourself in... when it is already past. It can be quite empowering but is nothing to hold on to.
I'm not deeming myself a very good spinner or inventor of moves... Is it an invention to take the staff and spin it on top of your head without having seen anyone do it? Is it an invention to start dancing, not making much moves but "adoring" the flames of your staff as if they were a lover? IMNSHO it isn't - because I have seen other people come up with the very same ideas, completely independently.
Which made me realize that ideas in my head actually are not "uniquely attached to my own neurons"... I'm merely a part of a network, call it morphogenetic field or whatever.
Have I personally changed anything in regards of spinning? Did I have an impact on spinning culture? Would the answer to that question actually change anything in my attitude towards others or in the attitude of others towards me? If that is a "Yes" - then "Y"? Am I more of a human being because I changed something, had an impact? Or am I less one because I didn't?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
Fire Spinner Exarch
514 posts
Location: New Orleans, LA United States, USA
Fire Spinner Exarch
514 posts
Location: New Orleans, LA United States, USA
Posted:
In that case I am very cookie cutter and I'll admit it. But then again I've only been doing this since mid November, so how much grace and fluidity can you expect from a person who has been doing this for two months and is entirely self taught? Wouldn't it be nice if everybody had access to larger groups with many different experience levels and interpretations of poi. The tutorials and videos and lists of tricks are all some people have and we are all grateful for their existence.
It also comes down to the individual person, and whether the term "cookie cutter" would be derogative or not. If somebody is new, then the term might be appropriate. If somebody has been spinning for months or years and they seem to never try and improve, that term might be more teasing or derogative even.
In that case I am very cookie cutter and I'll admit it. But then again I've only been doing this since mid November, so how much grace and fluidity can you expect from a person who has been doing this for two months and is entirely self taught? Wouldn't it be nice if everybody had access to larger groups with many different experience levels and interpretations of poi. The tutorials and videos and lists of tricks are all some people have and we are all grateful for their existence.
It also comes down to the individual person, and whether the term "cookie cutter" would be derogative or not. If somebody is new, then the term might be appropriate. If somebody has been spinning for months or years and they seem to never try and improve, that term might be more teasing or derogative even.
"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?"
"Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."
-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse
GOLD Member
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Posted:
That's a good point, I too would be classified as a cookie cutter. I don't want to stay like tat though like many people do. And thank the lord for the tutorial videos.
That's a good point, I too would be classified as a cookie cutter. I don't want to stay like tat though like many people do. And thank the lord for the tutorial videos.
The only luck is bad luck.
Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass
SILVER Member
we are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
45 posts
Location: falls church, virginia, usa
we are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
45 posts
Location: falls church, virginia, usa
Posted:
i don't think "cookie cutter" necessarily means a noob, though i admit i am new to these forums and have never seen the term. i think it means someone who sees moves that "famous" poi spinners post on videos, and then do those moves and ONLY those moves in their own spinning. i don't think it is an indication of skill level, but rather a lack of innovation and personal exploration.
for example, a person w/ a relatively high level of skill, but who could be a "cookie cutter" might have a burn as follows:
triquetra
to zan's diamond
to SpT/OD caps
to g-style plane breaking
to wall plane flowers
to yuta stalls
back to wall plane flowers
to ronan stacking
to horizontal float throws
to sooper dooper oober loopz lol
etc
i don't think this is necessarily a bad thing - it just might be annoying to people who care so much about being innovative and original and need to feel superior to people who aren't as creative as they are.
i don't think "cookie cutter" necessarily means a noob, though i admit i am new to these forums and have never seen the term. i think it means someone who sees moves that "famous" poi spinners post on videos, and then do those moves and ONLY those moves in their own spinning. i don't think it is an indication of skill level, but rather a lack of innovation and personal exploration.
for example, a person w/ a relatively high level of skill, but who could be a "cookie cutter" might have a burn as follows:
triquetra
to zan's diamond
to SpT/OD caps
to g-style plane breaking
to wall plane flowers
to yuta stalls
back to wall plane flowers
to ronan stacking
to horizontal float throws
to sooper dooper oober loopz lol
etc
i don't think this is necessarily a bad thing - it just might be annoying to people who care so much about being innovative and original and need to feel superior to people who aren't as creative as they are.
SILVER Member
Fire Spinner Exarch
514 posts
Location: New Orleans, LA United States, USA
Fire Spinner Exarch
514 posts
Location: New Orleans, LA United States, USA
Posted:
That is another point, the other end of the spectrum where somebody can do some impressive tricks, but basically does the same things over and over. Is that another type of cookie cutter individual?
I'm so new to poi that I'd be happy to get half of the tricks I know how to do correctly most of the time in a spin. I'm going slowly, having only been spinning for two cold months! I figure it's better to get a few tricks down really well then to try and quickly build up a list of different tricks I barely know. And not just learning the correct planes and different hand positions, but also how to link different tricks with one and another. Things are still going slow though, I can get one direction of the basic butterfly pretty good, but doing the reverse or even one hand in front of the other is giving me tangle issues.
But still people have different expectations on what they want from poi. Some people naturally have that creative state of mind to really get into a hobby and explore it to all ends. Other people are more technical and learn what is presented in front of them as best they can exactly how it is shown. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but not everybody will see some task in the same way.
That is another point, the other end of the spectrum where somebody can do some impressive tricks, but basically does the same things over and over. Is that another type of cookie cutter individual?
I'm so new to poi that I'd be happy to get half of the tricks I know how to do correctly most of the time in a spin. I'm going slowly, having only been spinning for two cold months! I figure it's better to get a few tricks down really well then to try and quickly build up a list of different tricks I barely know. And not just learning the correct planes and different hand positions, but also how to link different tricks with one and another. Things are still going slow though, I can get one direction of the basic butterfly pretty good, but doing the reverse or even one hand in front of the other is giving me tangle issues.
But still people have different expectations on what they want from poi. Some people naturally have that creative state of mind to really get into a hobby and explore it to all ends. Other people are more technical and learn what is presented in front of them as best they can exactly how it is shown. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but not everybody will see some task in the same way.
"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?"
"Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."
-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
Originally Posted By: This Jaded FleshWith more consideration. Why people even use the word cookie cutter is beyond me since everyone is a cookie cutter no matter the skill. Cookie cutter is basically either 1) a noob/untapped potential or 2) doing the same
over and over.
Fair point as well. I think the distinction comes in as to whether you are pushing the edge of the art. Which the overwhelming majority of people are not, even if they are able to give a good performance.
Originally Posted By: This Jaded FleshWith more consideration. Why people even use the word cookie cutter is beyond me since everyone is a cookie cutter no matter the skill. Cookie cutter is basically either 1) a noob/untapped potential or 2) doing the same
over and over. Fair point as well. I think the distinction comes in as to whether you are pushing the edge of the art. Which the overwhelming majority of people are not, even if they are able to give a good performance.
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
i am a fan of amusingly shaped delectable dough
i am a fan of amusingly shaped delectable dough
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
GOLD Member
stranger
4 posts
Location: Ireland
stranger
4 posts
Location: Ireland
Posted:
The only real cookie-cutter spinner I've seen was at a juggling convention in Tralee. He went up for the renegade show and did Ronan's routine to a tee, probably with a few minor changes (and a few drops). Don't get me wrong, he's an awesome spinner and I bet his fire poi looks unique, but it was bordering on plagiarism.
The only real cookie-cutter spinner I've seen was at a juggling convention in Tralee. He went up for the renegade show and did Ronan's routine to a tee, probably with a few minor changes (and a few drops). Don't get me wrong, he's an awesome spinner and I bet his fire poi looks unique, but it was bordering on plagiarism.
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I'm considering to install a copyright agency for fire performances... anyone developing new moves, please report to me
I'm considering to install a copyright agency for fire performances... anyone developing new moves, please report to me
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
UFO Spotting
350 posts
Location: Queensland, Australia
UFO Spotting
350 posts
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posted:
Originally Posted By: This Jaded FleshWith more consideration. Why people even use the word cookie cutter is beyond me since everyone is a cookie cutter no matter the skill. Cookie cutter is basically either 1) a noob/untapped potential or 2) doing the same over and over. No matter how you intellectualize a hyperloop you're still doing hyperloops. So yeah, I retract my earlier statement about 90% being cookie cutters. We may as well stop posting in this thread since it's going no where. We're mincing around the issue! Frankly, terms like this just make it clear for me who is the intellectual dirt and who's not.
i fully agree why coin a new term when there are terms for both points that perfectly sum them up
1)NOOB 2)BORING
Originally Posted By: This Jaded FleshWith more consideration. Why people even use the word cookie cutter is beyond me since everyone is a cookie cutter no matter the skill. Cookie cutter is basically either 1) a noob/untapped potential or 2) doing the same
over and over. No matter how you intellectualize a hyperloop you're still doing hyperloops. So yeah, I retract my earlier statement about 90% being cookie cutters. We may as well stop posting in this thread since it's going no where. We're mincing around the issue! Frankly, terms like this just make it clear for me who is the intellectual dirt and who's not. i fully agree why coin a new term when there are terms for both points that perfectly sum them up
1)NOOB 2)BORING
would rather have a bottle-in-front-of-me than a frontal lobotomy
"The dangers of life are infinate and among them is safety"(geothe)
GOLD Member
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Posted:
I like those terms
I like those terms
The only luck is bad luck.
Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass
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