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Forums > Technical Discussion > Cookie Cutters - diss and get dissed for spinning "pick and mix"?

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Cookie Cutter Spinners! beware of the great cookie munching monster! wink

Please excuse if there's another thread about this topic, I dun a search but couldn't find any.

Further please have patience and forgive me, if you feel in any way offended, either because you identify yourself as a "cookie cutter" yourself or find yourself quoted (completely out of context of the rest of your statement/ thread).

To me the term is absolutely new, I stumbled across it term in a few comments/ posts, like:

Originally Posted By: ...the problem of 'cookie cutter spinners'

Originally Posted By: ....learn the moves they like as-is, which leads to "cookie cutter" styles as discussed above.

Originally Posted By: .....so, for example, If you are in a one-off tricks based workshop (...) where there is no holistic approach, and the students intentions are mainly to go and learn tricks, then you are setting up for cookie cutter spinners.

Originally Posted By: .....I think the Cookie-Cutter spinner tendency is not necessarily down to workshops, but down to the general enormous growth in spinning as a whole, and, with that growth, a the introduction of 'fashion' into spinning - where you do something because 'everyone does it'.

Originally Posted By: .......Not that I'm against cookie cutter spinners, if there were more yuta clones out there life for a choreographer would be heaps easier hey.

Originally Posted By: ...........So whilst it may seem we generate a bunch of cookie cutter spinners from a trick based workshop, in the long term those same people may well integrate the movements into a personal style over time, and continue an exploration process on their own, breaking down the "trick" into concepts and components long after the workshop has ended.

Originally Posted By: .........Firstly the name cookie cutter is a totally new one on me and whilst i can guess what it means a deeper explanation would be great wink
Noel, I have no thoughts that you would ever want to stifle creativity and know you love what you do, i also wouldn't want to discourage you or anyone else from be techie online, however i feel like the populist thoughts and norms are leaning towards a more technical/generic approach to spinning and often feel i should try and help maintain a healthy balance

Originally Posted By: ..........Use the same cookie cutter on 100 different hunks of dough and each time you're going to get something practically the same.

Originally Posted By: ........I've found in general that people who really want to push the envelope will do so anyway, those that don't have the passion for creativity are probably a lot happier being cookie cutter spinners, it really depends on what you personally want out of it.

Originally Posted By: .........Is it even possible be a cookie cutter spinner? Maybe. It's really hard not to let your own style shine through. Even if you just stand in one place while doing ultra tech moves, you still have style.

Originally Posted By: ..............It is indeed possible to become a cookie cutter spinner, if you watch enough of a short base of spinners, steal movements from their routines theres a good chance you'll end up modelling your own movement off theirs.

Originally Posted By: .............In fact, its quite natural to be a cookie cutter spinner in your early-intermediate development. During the intermediate development its quite possible to teach people in a much different way. Rather than teaching movements you teach a concept and apply it to known movements.

Originally Posted By: ...........In short, without actually seeing a different way of spinning, it is very hard to let any sort of creativity shine through, unless their heads are wired in the right way to want to try new things, which many people are not. (Compare how many people spin [well] and how many actually push the boundaries and innovate.)

So yeah, cookie cutter is possible for many people.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1261474635)
EDIT_REASON: titler ; )


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:oh - and I didn't quote the names because I ripped the parts completely out of context. I don't like to offend anyone, that's why I kept it anonymous.

hug

Personally I feel there is a lot of .... well I'm not sure how to put it without opening a can of worms.

Going back in time I was looking for moves... not for an ideology in spinning. Admittedly I took those moves I liked and assembled them in the order I liked to spin them - so

YES! I AT LEAST HAVE BEEN A COOKIE CUTTER AT SOME STAGE OF MY DEVELOPMENT. (no worries I don't feel offended by your comments, mainly because:)

Back in the days... 2002 in Koh Phangan, there's been a gifted Thai spinner by the name of "Art" and I remember at least one of the best spinners around today has been his student... as I remember not as much learning the entirety but individual moves. I noticed this reflecting in his style for a couple of years.

So what's the point? Today this student is a semi god of poi, developed his own style and way of teaching and people are happy to attend his workshops anywhere on the planet.

shrug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1261204592)
EDIT_REASON: winks


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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This Jaded Flesh
SILVER Member since Oct 2009

This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham

Total posts: 323
Posted:What is the issue again? Everyone has their noob cake and eat it in the beginning. From the few 'oldies' on the tutorial scene they say they want to go back to havin their noob cake. To be honest I've never actually heard anyone mention what poi means to them without repeating a load of BS that is just what they think people want to hear. Yes there is a difference between linking a series of tricks and developing a style that is your own. Tricks are dead! Without the tricks what makes the Poi spinner good?

"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:Just as my two cents, and because I'm Posty McPosterson tonight, I think there's an extent to which over-arching concepts are inappropriate to a beginner. I mean, even n00bs should try and figure out bigger principles as they go, but ultimately there's only so much of that one can tackle without the technical skills to meaningfully deal with the principles.

A lot of things I learned as tricks I now conceive of as tools, but I don't think I could have looked at them in that light without learning it as a trick, then learning another trick that made use of some of the important features of the first. Weaves gave me a lot of the principles I use for keeping my poi in motion and moving them around my body; learning to do one kind of stall gave me a grasp of how to use stalls in a more general fashion; meltdowns gave me a lot of important ideas for certain kinds of turns, and crossers gave me more freedom with where I can place my poi and keep spinning.

I suppose it's possible to get stuck as a "cookie cutter spinner", but I also think it's a normal and healthy stage of learning to go through (as I think the original poster recognizes). But my further point is that I think the ability to be an "ideological spinner" is built on some necessarily piecemeal foundations (though it certainly seems that it could be the case that the standard "tricks" are not actually the best pieces to start from).


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:I first ran into the term "cookie cutter" when playing WoW and looking for tallent builds grin

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Like most anything, poi is prone to trends. Hands up anyone whose NOT working on orbitals right now, or wallplane flowers.

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:*puts hand up*

I was doing those about 2 years ago tongue2


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yes, my point exactly. These moves/patterns have been around for years but I've only noticed them becoming "popular' in the past year or so. Maybe it has something to do with my mew found habit of going to YouTube and clicking on random videos ?

I'm seeing way more of these in recent times than I did two years ago.


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:why I started spinning? because it intrigued me... I never thought that I would get the hang of it this fast. And that's why I continued to do it. The tickle of left-right brain coordination, body movement and exercise... got hooked after the fist burn over the playful "control" of fire...

Why did I learn individual moves?

Because they look nice from the outside... and I want to feel them on the inside.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Hmmmm....

I am somewhat different to a lot of people here (I think) because I have almost no contact with spinners face to face. Once I learned the basics from the guy who introduced things to me, we sort of went our own ways.

I have always looked for new moves, which I have tried to put into my own framework of how poi works. So I will take moves and look at how they fit into concepts.

Also, I suspect that I spin fairly differently to many people due to lack of cross-fertilisation with others. There is no one around me to actually learn much from, at least in terms of how or what I spin. On a technical level, I am streets ahead of everyone I have seen. (I know this does not necessarily make me a better spinner.)

So yes, I will happily cookie cut some new moves out, but hopefully I will be able to use them in my own way. Which is all that anyone really can do in my opinion.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Quote:So yes, I will happily cookie cut some new moves out, but hopefully I will be able to use them in my own way.

Same same..

I'll learn a move and as soon as i do, I try to figure out a smooth way into, and out of it as well as things to do with it as well. As a for instance, entering and exiting atomics. stall? one hand wrap? plane bend? wall/wheel plane? or wheel/ceiling?


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T-S-A
SILVER Member since May 2009

T-S-A

Magic Monkey Juice
Location: Saaf Ingerland Innet, England ...

Total posts: 252
Posted:I think everyone starts off like that, I learned weave then butterfly, and would go from one to other, thn windmill, thinking I was the tits being able to do one smoothly then another, then extentions and isolations helpped crack it a bit for me smile

It seems to be something everyone goes through... I don't know anyone who has learned a weave then gone "Oh I can do it like this, and this and if i do X then it has Y effect" etc.

I think I used to fit into the "Cookie Cutter" term. I had watched Encyclopoidia, Adventures In Poi and Scales of Poi. It wasn't until the last few months I have really founf my "own" style. I will watch people spinning, in life or videos, see parts of their performance that I like and work my own way of playing with it and putting it with things.

EDITED_BY: T-S-A (1261445459)


"We were making castles in the sand: Now we swim in the seas that swept them away"

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:I don't see a problem with "cookie cutters" at all - especially since (I'd guess) most spinners start(ed) like that at some time...

I'm only wondering why so many "old hands" seem to be dissing them...

wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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This Jaded Flesh
SILVER Member since Oct 2009

This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham

Total posts: 323
Posted:Maybe it's the many that pick up poi, call themselves spinners, yet don't progress in the craft.

"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:*cough* thinks that TJF is playing with fire wink

"old hands" as in "quite famous and reknown" whistle


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:To be fair, some people like to just dance while spinning stuff around, and I think it's fair to let them call themselves spinners. It's not like everyone who calls themselves a spinner automatically aspires to be the next Nevisoul (though I do, so watch out, Thomas :p).

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:A valid point, but then what would you define as a spinner?

Someone who can do a weave and a butterfly?

Someone who can do that and make it look good?

Someone trying to improve constantly?

Someone who has reached a level where they can do most things easily?

As for myself, I find the lack of people willing to try and push around me annoying. Not that they are not able to do what they do well, but that they are not trying to learn new things. Or if they are, it really is only a move or two, not something bigger to use for themselves. *shrug*


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:Well, I think my own answer is I'd call someone a spinner if they can make the poi spin to a beat and can turn while spinning. On the whole I'm not sure why I should expect someone to want out of spinning what I want out of it, or why I should frown on someone who doesn't.

You also again touch upon a point I was attempting to make above: at a certain point it's not easy to conceive of what "something bigger" might actually be. And nothing really guarantees that your bigger picture will mean anything to them. (I can't tell you how often I hear really good tech spinners' advice and go "yes, that's all technically true, but what bearing does it have on anything?")


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This Jaded Flesh
SILVER Member since Oct 2009

This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham

Total posts: 323
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom*cough* thinks that TJF is playing with fire wink


Well we're getting closer to a better question are we not? tongue2 What would I define the differences between spinners? Not quite sure I'll have to sit and think about it. Does making a definition between 'cookie cutter' and 'true spinner' really matter? that's something each must ask. First place of call would be asking the oldest of the spinners this question. Only they will know what they as persons have changed into regarding spinning. Maybe there's not a difference but we won't know without asking such questions.


"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:I saw this, here's my input. First info on me: I started with weaves and butterfly, I started like a cookie cutter until I had enough things so that I could move around and I immediately took myself and pranced around spinning and it was great. I learned more things and as I learned I did and still am gaining more freedom of movement. But now that it is cold, I am stuck in here learning like a cookie cutter, but when I do go outside I try to dance with it if I have music to dance to. And on another not, since doing poi, I can now dance grin I learned hyperloops and orbitals because I saw it in a fire video and it caught my eye and am glad I learned it tongue2 I am still exploring with them a little and have in the past learned the vertical orbital, and recently learned a btb hyperloop. Why do I learn these? I didn't know it was a fad or something, I just did it because it was fun and I still love them, and there is nothing wrong with learning and exploring something if you think it is fun. As I am now every once in a while work a minute or so working on btb hyperloops and trying a btb orbital (not succeeded yet)

As for my thought on cookie cutter spinners: People will start on it, but I think that once they know enough to free up some movement, and immediately learn to explore it. But, I think when you start to get into technical spinning, fire poi starts to loose that beauty that is brought by the simplicity of it. And it starts to look more like something off the street. There is nothing wrong with cookie cutting, but it is just so much more fun and much better looking when you get out of it, which is why I want to go out and stab the snow. Also, orbitals are great because you can play with them so much and it you can pull it out of nowhere with no setup like you do a buzzsaw. And for tech spinning, there's nothing wrong with it, when you learn all the other things, and you have to move on, it's a great way to go, but I don't like seeing it with fire because as I said, it just looses its beauty.


The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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This Jaded Flesh
SILVER Member since Oct 2009

This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham

Total posts: 323
Posted:so wait... What are we classing cookies cutters as again?

"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"

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Dr.Babs
SILVER Member since Apr 2009

Dr.Babs

20% more: DIET ASBESTOS
Location: Lower Mantle, USA

Total posts: 34
Posted:Originally Posted By: This Jaded Fleshso wait... What are we classing cookies cutters as again?

Precisely!


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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:Why as beginners I believe, or people stuck in "beginner mode"
That's all I can make out of it


The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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This Jaded Flesh
SILVER Member since Oct 2009

This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham

Total posts: 323
Posted:Maybe it's an individuals attitude before skill, that defines a difference?

"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Is mostly what they want out of it in my view. Also, it depends on exposure to other people and ways of thinking.

When I started, there were a fair few people at Rhodes. I did not get to meets since they were a bad time for me so I learned on my own.

When I did get to see them, I spun very differently. They all had a fairly similar style of spinning since they had been learning together. So an outsider could have seen them as cookie-cutting I guess, although all that was really happening was that they had no outside input.

(Also, few of them had much of a drive to really learn something new, so while I got stuff from them, they did not get much from me.)


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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This Jaded Flesh
SILVER Member since Oct 2009

This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham

Total posts: 323
Posted:Originally Posted By: astonIs mostly what they want out of it in my view. Also, it depends on exposure to other people and ways of thinking.

When I started, there were a fair few people at Rhodes. I did not get to meets since they were a bad time for me so I learned on my own.

When I did get to see them, I spun very differently. They all had a fairly similar style of spinning since they had been learning together. So an outsider could have seen them as cookie-cutting I guess, although all that was really happening was that they had no outside input.

(Also, few of them had much of a drive to really learn something new, so while I got stuff from them, they did not get much from me.)

That's interesting... I don't think this can progress further until we have a more finalized terminology for Poi. Currently from what I can gleam from this thread, 90% of the poi spinners out there could be currently classed as cookie cutters because we have only have two grades of distinction. And even those are not clear. These two grades can be cut down into different 'schools' of poi. Such as, solitary, traditionalist, technical and ego driven. Probably more but I'm still injured from the drinking last night.


"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: This Jaded FleshWell we're getting closer to a better question are we not? tongue2 What would I define the differences between spinners? Not quite sure I'll have to sit and think about it. Does making a definition between 'cookie cutter' and 'true spinner' really matter? that's something each must ask. First place of call would be asking the oldest of the spinners this question. Only they will know what they as persons have changed into regarding spinning. Maybe there's not a difference but we won't know without asking such questions.

I'm not one of the oldest, but take it from me: if the term "cookie cutter" is fun to use - so be it... if it's a class distinction - dodge it.

Spinning should be fun - and remain as such. Once you loose yourself in it you may actually find something... but IMHO that's not some place you can actively go but a state of mind you might suddenly find yourself in... when it is already past. It can be quite empowering but is nothing to hold on to.

I'm not deeming myself a very good spinner or inventor of moves... Is it an invention to take the staff and spin it on top of your head without having seen anyone do it? Is it an invention to start dancing, not making much moves but "adoring" the flames of your staff as if they were a lover? IMNSHO it isn't - because I have seen other people come up with the very same ideas, completely independently.

Which made me realize that ideas in my head actually are not "uniquely attached to my own neurons"... I'm merely a part of a network, call it morphogenetic field or whatever.

Have I personally changed anything in regards of spinning? Did I have an impact on spinning culture? Would the answer to that question actually change anything in my attitude towards others or in the attitude of others towards me? If that is a "Yes" - then "Y"? Am I more of a human being because I changed something, had an impact? Or am I less one because I didn't?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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This Jaded Flesh
SILVER Member since Oct 2009

This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham

Total posts: 323
Posted:I don't think we should look at 'cookie cutter' as being a negative. In essence it's just another term for being a neophyte. Should we aim to progress past that stage? certainly and it's a natural progression but no one can claim they have moved past that stage without a clear definition of where they have come from, to where they are, where they are going. The few that reside in that 10% have made the term 'cookie cutter' stick to them like water on a ducks back because they have progressed the craft. Whether they share that progress is a different matter. And that's where the answer to this debate lies I guess. In the individual. I'm trying to break the term 'cookie cutter' into something we can intellectualize, less catch all and change it from being derogative term.
EDITED_BY: This Jaded Flesh (1261850537)


"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"

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brenonfire413
SILVER Member since Dec 2009

brenonfire413

Fire Spinner Exarch
Location: New Orleans, LA United States,...

Total posts: 514
Posted:In that case I am very cookie cutter and I'll admit it. But then again I've only been doing this since mid November, so how much grace and fluidity can you expect from a person who has been doing this for two months and is entirely self taught? Wouldn't it be nice if everybody had access to larger groups with many different experience levels and interpretations of poi. The tutorials and videos and lists of tricks are all some people have and we are all grateful for their existence.
It also comes down to the individual person, and whether the term "cookie cutter" would be derogative or not. If somebody is new, then the term might be appropriate. If somebody has been spinning for months or years and they seem to never try and improve, that term might be more teasing or derogative even.


"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?"
"Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."
-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:That's a good point, I too would be classified as a cookie cutter. I don't want to stay like tat though like many people do. And thank the lord for the tutorial videos.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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e6
SILVER Member since Apr 2009

e6

we are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
Location: falls church, virginia, usa

Total posts: 45
Posted:i don't think "cookie cutter" necessarily means a noob, though i admit i am new to these forums and have never seen the term. i think it means someone who sees moves that "famous" poi spinners post on videos, and then do those moves and ONLY those moves in their own spinning. i don't think it is an indication of skill level, but rather a lack of innovation and personal exploration.

for example, a person w/ a relatively high level of skill, but who could be a "cookie cutter" might have a burn as follows:
triquetra
to zan's diamond
to SpT/OD caps
to g-style plane breaking
to wall plane flowers
to yuta stalls
back to wall plane flowers
to ronan stacking
to horizontal float throws
to sooper dooper oober loopz lol
etc

i don't think this is necessarily a bad thing - it just might be annoying to people who care so much about being innovative and original and need to feel superior to people who aren't as creative as they are.


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