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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:
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This concept of planes is taken from movement theory and I use it as a foundation for my understanding of all the object manipulation arts.

Some terminology:

A sagittal (wheel) plane is a vertical plane dividing the body into left and right portions. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittal_plane

A coronal (wall) plane is a vertical plane that divides the body into anterior and posterior (front and back) sections. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronal_plane

A transverse (horizontal) plane divides the body into superior and inferior parts. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transverse_plane

My theory is that all of our movements techniques are simply various ways of moving within, and changing between these planes.


EDITED_BY: DyamiTK (1240381310)
EDIT_REASON: rewording


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Have not read the links (sorry) but this comes back to Laban's movement theory, yes?

Also, I think most people tend to think of spinning in terms of planes albeit as a box around people rather than a cross through them....


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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animatEd
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK

Total posts: 3540
Posted:Damn it.

You started off great, but then you stopped short. So, you've told us about these three planes that we already knew about but name differently...

Anyway, I'll add a bit to it;

See where the planes converge? These are the points where a plane change is most easy to do, because you don't have to move the object out of the planes at any time. you simply take a fork in the road, as it were.

These points are also the basic four petal antispin points.

You may also notice that the positioning of each point (The furthest point from the body where the planes meet) is also significant. Visualise only the positioning of these points, and then join them up with only four equal vertices coming from a point, and hey presto, an Octohedron, which is one of the platonic solids... turn it in any way, and it still appears to have the same orientation...

Thinking about your movement in this way is a great thing. it makes it a lot easier to think about positioning, shape, patterns and symmetry. use it and you will notice your manipulation gaining a much more aesthetic and logical feel.

Yum.

(EDIT) talk of box planes around people rather than through people... I think it's this that makes people less aware of their what their body is doing as they play... Anyway. the above model is a basic one, to portray the idea. you can have the same plane in many different places. the diagram just shows the base, simple positioning for these planes.

Am I talking nonsense, or does this actually make sense?

EDITED_BY: Learning_To_Cook (1240311304)


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I am going to edit my original post a little which will make some of your replies not make sense, so sorry about that but I want to keep the information logical and consolidated as best I can.

I do not know what Laban's movement theory is but it sounds interesting. I'll look it up when I get a chance. I've bookmarked the Wikipedia article on it.

Yes, I agree that many people tend to think of spinning in terms of planes around us like a box rather than through our mid lines but I disagree with that way of thinking. I'm not saying that way is wrong, I'm just saying the terminology I use makes more sense to my underlying concept of fundamental poi theory. As I said above, my theory is that all our movement techniques with the props are various ways of moving within, and changing between these planes. The three axis of the planes shown in the diagram above are cross points. These axis can be moved to give us different sub-planes which things like the buzzsaw, and air-wraps are on. Moves which many people consider to be the "basic" set like weaves and reels are based on the deeper fundamental principals of crossing these axis. The poi themselves sit on "tracks" (as Nick Woolsey calls them) to the sides of the axis.

Does this actually make any sense, or am I just spewing nonsense? soapbox

We actually began this discussion over on the Fire Garden and I wanted to bring it up on this forum too: thefiregarden.com/forum/topics/plane-theory


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:LTC: Furtherest point regarding what? Arm stretch or poi + arms?

I can think of uses for both, just curious which you meant....

Dyami: You are making sense for the most part. Could you illustrate some examples for me though?


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:Aston, I don't know how to literally make drawings of examples, but here is some further elaboration:

There are fixed planes of your environment which the static audience perceives no matter where the dancer moves. That is what gives us the effect of turning around to go from, lets say, forwards to backwards weave. The poi, in that example, do not change direction relative to the fixed spacial planes of your environment, but rather it is only you who has turned. meditate

Then there are also the relative planes which move depending on what direction you are facing. Any move can be done in any plane. A weave, for example is not defined as a side plane move. Thinking of it that way is actually incredibly limiting and if it where true we wouldn't have access to a huge range of movement. A weave is a spit-time move in which the wrists wind up on one side of an axis, then unwind on the other. Weaves done in the wall plane give us things like waist wraps and the weave fountain. When they are done in the horizontal plane they give us things like corkscrews.
A different example are air-wraps. A basic two beat air-wrap moves the axis (cross point) of a plane away from the original mid-line of the body (Just like weaves, tangles are based on another fundamental concept of winding up on one side of a plane, then crossing the axis to unwind).


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Now. . . this post might end up sounding harsh, Dyami and its not intended that way, but apart from slapping a latin name on things what here is new? Planes are fairly commonly understood already as was viewing things from the point of view of a static observer, visualising what your audience can see. Perhaps I'm wrong, however. smile

Plane changing is a slightly different matter and I think this could be really useful in breaking down plane changes. LTCs breakdown of it as the focus points for antispin patterns is quite right. The octohedron is a great base concept, but its also important to note that any shape can be created and you CAN change direction partway through a line. With a + as an example you can follow a path from the top that will take you out the right or left arm of the plus sign just as easily as any other direction.

Its also really interesting to note that you can change planes quite easily near your belly button. Coming in from a horizontal plane in butterfly with a double stall in toward your body and coming out again in butterfly to go into up/down stalls behind ones back is a nice simple plane change.

********************************************************


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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:No worries on sounding harsh. I should be able to take a beating.

It is interesting to me that one of the first reactions from most people who hear this information is to disregard the latin names. I think those names are fascinating. I respect and value the more ancient knowledge as well as the common language.

Nothing here is new! That is part of the beauty of it. All knowledge and information already exists somewhere, but not every individual has found it yet! People learn differently, they learn different things at different times, we all think about concepts with different perceptions.

This information is especially not new to people like you who have been passionate about this art for a long time now. However I do encounter a lot of spinners, sometimes even the more advanced spinners, who have never thought about some of these ideas. That is why I wanted to make this post. Because I don't think everyone understands the concept yet and to me it is invaluable fundamental knowledge. Besides, I like to see the discussions that are brought up out of this kind of thing. Such as the way you take it and apply it to your affinity for plane changing.

EDITED_BY: DyamiTK (1240467744)
EDIT_REASON: spelling


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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son...I think this could be really useful in breaking down plane changes...

So your work with plane changes led me to an epiphany about stalls. I was thinking about the relationship of changing direction with stalls, continuing on in the same direction, and changing planes, and it occurred to me that a stall is a three dimensional shape.
Think about a simple two dimensional up stall. The path that it makes is kind of like a "J". Take that "J curve" of the stall path and spin it around the Y-axis (vertical axis) to make a three dimensional sort of parabolic cone like shape. This three dimensional parabolic cone with j-curve sides models all the possible paths of a stall. That is why stalls can be used to change planes and direction.


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Seen this?



The video its a response to may or may not be required to understand that one. ^_^


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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:Ha! no, I hadn't. The wording of our descriptions are somewhat different but explain the same principal. I like that you were able to prompt me into figuring that out for myself before telling me directly through the video.

I am working with some conflicting feelings about that at the moment. The guidance, not the plane changing. I worry that when I give students all the details I know about something, I am taking away a valuable learning journey from them. The things we know best are ones we are not taught.


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animatEd
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK

Total posts: 3540
Posted:Aston: I was refering to nothing in particular. So I guess regarding whatever you want. smile

MNS: you're nearly there, but still haven't quite grasped it, judging from your post. Positioning of planes changes doesn't matter. You still have x,y, and z axes. It won't change that the poi starts off in one plane, and goes to another. Insides inversions and the like also don't matter, they are still a variation on the three basic planes. the only thing that can be taken into account on top of all this, are diagonal planes. to use diagonal planes nicely and in a way that looks good and not accidental, you need to use the focal points. this is where imagining yourself inside an octohedron really helps. also, the octohedron is not restricted to the one spot. it can move, and even rotate on its axes. It can be replaced by another platonic solid as and when needed, such as a four sided Pyramid, a cube or even an icosahedron...

I also recommend you look into Laban, and take a look at the 'golden ratio' and platonic solids, and think about why some shapes are more aesthetically pleasing than others, if you haven't already. Geeky, but see what it does to your spinning and more importantly the way you move and position your body. wink

DyamiTK: your stall theory looks interesting. I'll need to have a think about that one and see if I do agree with it. however, the reason a stall is so good for plane and direction changing, is because the poi stops. you remove all inertia from the poi, and it needs it to start spinning again. at this point, you can decide which way you want the poi to spin, just like you decide which direction you spin when you first start playing for the day. smile

I also agree very much that people shouldn't see these planes as a box that they are inside, but more like the intersection in the first post. I also like to use the above intersections as separing my body parts, from above the waist to below, left and right, and front and back. but that's because I dance a lot and like to think about the shapes and lines I make with my body.

smile


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:I find the box is helpful, at least at first. It is an easy check on whether you are spinning upright and so on.

So let me see if I understand this the way you are suggesting, using a 3bt weave:

Moving the intersection of all three planes to my wrists and then moving my wrists is a way of thinking about where a 3bt is. I can also put the intersection near my shoulder and get one of my variations (which I use to lead into crossers...).

If I rotate the entire structure pi/2 around the vertical centrepoint of my body and then moving the intersection around leads to a wallplane weave.

Or am I looking at it wrong/not explaining well?


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:Just found this, Richee's Theory of plane unity: http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/linkto/-Theory-of-plane-unity-/701007


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: Learning_To_CookIt can be replaced by another platonic solid as and when needed, such as a four sided Pyramid, a cube or even an icosahedron

This is pretty much what I was getting at. From the base of your pattern, I just wanted to make it clear that there is no basic pattern, so long as there are focus points. To keep it looking intentional I'm attempting to get some patterns going in split time but it is bending my brain for now. grin I'm fairly sure I get it and I doubt any further text is going to help clear it up, I'm not so good with conveying these movements in words since I spin alone usually.


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Dynami: Those are the ones I was referring to in my first post in this thread.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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81LL
BRONZE Member since Jun 2009

81LL

pant crafting
Location: Ireland

Total posts: 97
Posted:loads of plane changes here yuta & ronan

No air drumming - Bruford could change the timing up so fast you could snap your wrist!

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burning_ninja


burning_ninja

newbie
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 39
Posted:I like your theory and it leads me to ask a question, have you ever followed a similar way of drawing the motions in a triquatra I may have spelled that incorrectly, it forms a triangular prism with a cube in the centre if you connect the joins and axis in the right combination and convert it to linear. there are some creepy 3D magic eye sort of patterns if you use the poi flowers and convert there nonlinear shapes to linear.

It is by will alone I set my mind in motion

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:Originally Posted By: burning_ninjahave you ever followed a similar way of drawing the motions in a triquatra I may have spelled that incorrectly, it forms a triangular prism with a cube in the centre if you connect the joins and axis in the right combination and convert it to linear. there are some creepy 3D magic eye sort of patterns if you use the poi flowers and convert there nonlinear shapes to linear.

we have played with tracing tetrahedrons (three dimensional shapes with three triangular faces) but I am not visualizing what you mean by a cube in the center or what you mean by converting to linear. Could you elaborate?


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burning_ninja


burning_ninja

newbie
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 39
Posted:I wish I had one of my drawings for this because I suck at explaining things, not so good with words if you know what I mean, but when you draw a equalateral triangle, draw a line from each tip passing through the centre until it touches the base, then connect the three points to form a tetragramaton, use a compass to measure the distance from the centre to the base line, then mark that distance on the lines that pass through the centre and connect the dots, it should form a tetrahedron with a cube in the centre. The cube doesn't appear there until you study the six petal/hexagon flower but after that you'll realize it was there all along, I'll try to draw one quickly on the computer but I'm used to doing it the old fashioned way.

It is by will alone I set my mind in motion

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burning_ninja


burning_ninja

newbie
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 39
Posted:can't do it on computer I suck at computing, just follow the steps above and it should appear

It is by will alone I set my mind in motion

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:Alternatively, if you're into neurology, the plano coronal separates dorsal and ventral, and the plano transversal separates posterior and anterior. Ah, the glorious tradition of studying quadrapeds....

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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