Forums > Social Discussion > Existance.... Necessary? or a choice?

Hey there humans... enjoying '08?
IN ADVANCE i'd like to apologise for the length of this, i hope you guys can bother getting through it all.

lately i've been pondering on something you've probably all gone over once or twice before, that is the need for existance. i know that the topic is impossible to resolve (so far in our advancement), so i shall put forth my reasoning, and hope you all have some constructive input.

i understand the process of how we got here (or the basics as explained by todays science)(i hope we all agree on the big bang theory), but i am puzzled as to our purpose.
my most sensible conclusion is that life is utterly random (there was no concious decision for things to occur), and chance (things really just kinda fell into place through time and energy), so really our only purpose is to make things comfortable for ourselves until the universe tears itself apart.
i believe that life is unecessary (at very least to the individual), so i dont really take life all that seriously, im more or less here for personal enjoyment.

thats where the choice falls into play, because with my applied logic (although possibly amazingly flawed), i can only see an instinctual/atomic drive to survive... even for those microscopic single celled oganisms that grew into us in the first place.

ALTHOUGH, my question towards my above statements would be; "then why would there be the capacity to exist if there was no point in existance"? i guess you guys could maybe help me out on that too.

maybe i will make no sense to anyone, but hopefully you guys will figure out what im trying to say and respond. good luck

p.s. if you'd like me to explain any parts of this post in more detail, feel free to ask, as i feel i have left alot to be imagined, and already known through study of evoltion of the universe.

PEACE OUT!

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hey Rouge Dragon... thanks 4 the link.

i didnt know about this study method before, its fascinating! maybe this code will explain some important (At least to us) questions we have been asking for along time... or maybe its just our genetics way of protecting us from radical mutation... i dont know, and im sure until we have mapped atleast a decent portion of these introns, i dont feel anyone can claim anything. but i know that i will definantly be keeping my eye out for any information released to the public on this subject.

i appreciate you adding this link, you have given me a new topic of interest!

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To 87wt2gxq7

all i can say is that was entertaining... i neither agree or object to the topic, and i dont think anyone can yet.

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Stone, that is probably the best concept that we should follow until we know more...

here's to remaining blissfully unaware in the meantime

if only...

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the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Here�s is a thought for you.



A lot of people are defining our existence by what we can sense.



The salvia trip I had by most peoples definition, wasn�t real. (I was really just lying in my room staring at the roof) I hadn�t really fallen in to another universe. But I could still use all my senses to define the new universe. my eyes showed patterns that expanded when I touched them, I felt how smooth they were, my balance said I was falling, my ears heard my voice as I let out a genuine wow! of amazement.



I genuinely believed all that was real for the 5 or so minutes that I was heavily intoxicated. Id forgotten what was real (hence no past or future) and so wasn�t able to just dismiss this universe as being drug induced. I just existed in this very small universe with no real purpose. Hence on coming back to this universe I maintained the thought that it had no purpose.



But here is the main point of this post: if it wasn�t for the fact I "woke up"(matrix esk) from my trip, what would stop it from being real.



Quote from Albert Einstein

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."



If my trip had been more persistent/permanent, is it reality??? if i woke up from this universe in to another one, would this one not have been reality ???



hehe getting your own universe is such a cool experience.

I refuse to tip toe threw live only to arrive safely at death

I refuse to tip toe threw live only to arrive safely at death

cheers

 Written by:

The salvia trip I had by most peoples definition, wasn�t real.



Well, I�d have to agree

Here is another Albert Einstein quote:

 Written by:

A human being is a part of the whole, called by us Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest-a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty, Albert Einstein

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Mr. FireTom, you have made my day. thankyou for your 'bold and straighforward' approach in responding to the main topic... you have enforced my opinion, along with others i am sure, on the 'choice' we are all making being a part of this realm.

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BAS231187, stop rubbing it in about the lack of salvia over here it sucks... i am intrigued by this "isolation" experience it seems to have on some people (from what ive heard). how well do you retain your memories of the "trip"? are they vivid, or more like waking after a big night?

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this albert gentleman you speak of sounds like a smart man, i could be wrong though... that is a powerful quote

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forget my mumbling, I'm sending garbled messages out every now and them.



Is existence necessary to experience the unnecessary to finally return to the essential?



Remember flirting with someone just for no obvious reasons? Life might just be like that and perhaps this is not the first universe of all (as much as it might not be the last one). Hence it's the only one that matters now (by that serving well as an analogy to life and reincarnation).



If we'd already be happy with ourselves alone, our existence wouldn't be necessary to prove us that we can be... ?



Asking "why" can be a little helper to determine the "what for" but it's oriented backwards... I'm still pondering upon which question would specify the "here and now".... ? Any idea? [/edit]

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

that's the answer I was looking for, Josh

So simple... embrace Zen

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Hi Pyro,



I think you may be confusing meaning in life with creating wealth in life.



I�m not sure that many people take advantage of their evolved faculties, as opposed to evolved wealth, seeing as the world is still in a state of chaos and war. Which, to me seems to indicate that we are still living an un-evolved life, rather than an evolved life. Un-evolved being completely selfish and indulgent.



I�d suggest we place far to much emphasis on making meaning out of life, as we seem to attach some kind of �made up� meaning to every thing we do. From a Buddhist perspective, it�s only when you understand that life is empty and meaningless that you can move on. That�s one reason why Buddha rejected the notion of �supreme beings�. Like, we had to make a meaning out of life so we made up �all powerful supreme beings� to give meaning to out lives. Which, according to Buddhism, is a red herring.



I�d suggest that some hallucinogens can give us a healthy �kick� of self-realsiation. However, a hallucination is a sensory experience, that does not exist outside the mind. So, in that respect we are still prisoners of the mind.





cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

BTW, Fire Tom,



congratulations on finding the answer you were looking for;



embrace Zen (Buddhism).





cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

[*sigh*]

How do you know about a Buddhists perspective, if yourself ain't no Buddhist?

If you're so much focussed on war and chaos that it dominates your perception, maybe you should inquire within your own mind, where this focus or valuation comes from. BTW how much chaos and war is prevalent in Melbourne to provoke this? Last time I visited it seemed like a pretty organised and peaceful place to me - either it has drastically changed, or you have been undertaken some travelling that slipped my attention.

I side you and Buddha on "supreme beings", hence "life is empty and meaningless"... does this statement apply to your life? Man, I would need some volunteers over here....

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Pryo, for some people thoughts lead to actions, but for most of us our thoughts are just thoughts. To quote an old proverb �A ton of thought, is worth an ounce of action�. To quote a newer proverb �Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility� (Dietrich Bonhoeffer).



George Bush didn�t have different ideas. The people of American voted in George Bush because he represented the opinion of America at the time. And, they voted him in for a second term in office. Not much empathy there.



I agree with what you say about empathy. A stronger level of empathy will lead to an evolved world. But that�s the crux. How do we increase the level of empathy? You are right in that we have to overcome our programming (matrix of circuits), in this case our primitive survival programming. However, I think it takes more than a �silver bullet�.



So, what are your suggestions to increasing empathy?



You are probably right on inherent meaning. Life has no meaning, so make up stories to give our lives meaning. Once we understand that, then we can move on and develop our evolved faculties.



I think I misunderstood what you were saying about people living in wealthy countries. I suppose what I was getting at is many see evolving wealth as giving meaning to their lives.



Hope that makes sense











Fire Tom, you don�t have to be Buddhist (become a Mitra or whatever) to understand Buddhism. That�s the beauty of Buddhism.



People are often quoting Zen. I think it has something to do with them seeing something in Zen philosophy, that isn�t available in western religions. So, I don�t see your problem with looking to Buddhism for answers.



Words are very powerful. You said you found the answer in Zen, then I believe you. Now you say something else, I believe you. Though, this can be difficult to follow, as you seem full of contradictions.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Dude, I planned to go prior and have been to Bali 2 weeks after the first bombing and a week after the second, what are you specifically referring to? I met loads of ppl who lost friends and family and who themselves narrowly escaped the bombing... what are you specifically referring to, by mentioning this? I also have been to Thailand and India after the Tsunami and met ppl who lost their friends and family in this tragedy... what are you referring to?



Do you live an ascetics life? You ever did? If no, how can you speak about a "Buddhists perspective"? It's like a guy talking about pregnancy... I didn't, so I can't talk about it.



As a matter of fact most "Buddhists" I met are throwing out "smartass comments" and specifically of some kind they never experienced themselves, but only got told or read about. I can't call it "wisdom" nor "knowledge" nor "giving advice" - I can only call it "phrase milling"



You sense some contradictions in my approaches, I would say you're right. And what's your trouble with contradictions? Never contradicted your self? To me, life is full of contradictions, maybe contradiction is the start and the very foundation of the universe and life... ever thought about it this way? On a sidenote: I overcame duality by embracing it.



I feel deeply sorry that for the past weeks we're in opposition to each other, but maybe this opposition leads to very fruitful discussions and discourses, which others can benefit from...



Would you accept that different ppl have a different purpose in life? Thus if everybody would just sit and meditate all day every day, we would all die from dehydration and starvation? Chop wood, carry water...



Why actively manipulate the level of empathy? Why forcing it? Would you say that suffering increases the level of empathy or would it be diminished?



You don't accept the world and life as it is, so how can you expect the world and life to accept you the way you are? You focus on the world and see chaos and war, others focus on the world and see perfect order and love... The truth must be somewhere in the middle, wouldn't you agree?



To me "why" = past, "what for" = future. Which question refers to the "present"?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

 Written by: FireTom


The truth must be somewhere in the middle, wouldn't you agree?


Thank you, lets use what buddhism can/has taught us in all things, not just opinion

On the actual topic is existence necessary or a choice I see this as two questions really so I'll answer separately.

Existence on a universal scale is certinly not a choice, but I don't think necessary cuts it either, for now it is merely mandatory.

On an individual scale it entirely depends on the individual concerned. Where do you define your own purpose? How do you define purpose? I find simply existing and experiencing everything my little corner of existence has to throw at me is my purpose. And I like it. I can see how some people wouldn't be content with that, and needless to say everyone finds purpose in one thing or another, and I hope everyone enjoys theirs as much as I do.

Necessary or a choice?
Existence in its entirity is necessary, how we use it on a human scale is the choice.

Poi(poi~y) n. : A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.
- part owner of Wooktastic� �

Thanks Stout, positive feedback is as refreshing as a summer breeze. Good points on existence. I�ve been taking the �higher purpose� approach. I think our purpose in life is to reach our full potential as human beings. I think I got the higher purpose ideal from my Christian upbringing, though somewhere along the way I lost faith in higher beings.



The alternative theory on purpose in life seems to come from the hedonist (psychological egoism) school, which is attractive. So, I was wondering where did this drive for a higher purpose came from in the first place. Why not just enjoy life as it is?



Now this is a bit off-topic, but as BAS and Pyro have already mentioned entheogens. I thought I�d make a contribution on this theme. I was watching a SBS doco on TV last night called Tribe. The program was about the use of Iboga in ritual initiation into the Babanga tribe in Africa. It was a good 2 day ceremony, complete with fire dancers. During the initiation process the subject (commentator) explored memories, experienced loss of ego and got to understand the consequences of his past actions, especially on the people around him. Iboga is sometimes referred to as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil from the bible. While I was taught the eating of the tree caused the fall of humankind, others (Gnostics) see the serpent as a liberator of humanity, and the tree being a guide for the enlightenment of humankind. Something to think about.





I brought up the Bali bombing because Fire Tom asked about the chaos and war is my part of the world. The Bali bombing was very close to home for Australians, and many Australians were killed by the bombs. Perhaps this is not a good analogy, but at the time some commentators compared it to a mini 9/11. I agree with the cause being unskilled behaviour based on belief. But I think the unskilled behaviour also comes from the west, as terrorism seems to be driven by hate, anger and frustration.





Fire Tom, we all have different purposes in life, but many (not all) seem to be seeking purpose in life. I don�t think it�s about everybody sitting around meditating all day every day, but if everybody meditated everyday, say for 30 minutes. Then for sure, the world would be a better place. By meditation, I mean mindfulness meditation and Metta (generating loving kindness).



Cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Thanks for you advice Fire Tom. I have thought about going to India, and perhaps after reading about your humerous accounts I will. I studied western Buddhism for about a year and a half. Which was great, no dogma no crap. Then I found out there was an integrity issue with their leader.

I agree, actively helping people to develop their strengths is an excellent idea, and perhaps we need more of that type of thinking in our education systems. Though, as a good teacher, you observed that resentment from the past, and not your education technique, was holding your student back. So to me, personal development is dealing with the issues that are holding us back. For some, there is a need to resolve these issues before they can develop their true potential and skills.

I�m not suggesting we make meditation mandatory, because as you say, it has to come from within. So the better example we set for others in life, then the more people will see something in it for themselves. I know, I don�t always practice what I preach

I like the humour in your cynicism, and for sure I have never experienced anything like seeing the "Mahayana"... very often on top of this "big chariot" gurus and masters are sitting, smiling at existence getting pulled around by donkeys while eating croissants and drinking coffee. It�s a very funny description. Though, I�d suggest they lack integrity if they are the root cause of suffering, and are probably not as smart as they think.

Who benefits from perusing a higher purpose in life? I do Fire Tom. I�m not against paying for education. I�ve paid for tennis coaching and I�ve paid for life coaching. I don�t have a problem with that. Though, as you say, there are plenty of scammers out there.

So my question is are you speaking from your observations of these scammers or are you speaking from your personal experience of having undertaken personal development? Because there is a lot of difference. Who is to say that the Pilgrim who leaves his goods with the Master has not made the right decision and reaches his goal? Bty, that story reminds me of the Eye of the Camel parable in the bible.

As far a driving at nigh goes, don�t look at the lights of oncoming cars as they will blind you. Instead, look to the side of the road. I used to polish my own lights, but the biggest �breakthrough� I�ve had in life was to become coachable.

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Which question refers to the present?



That depends. Is the present you are living into your past of your future? If you are living into your past then things will remain as they are. For example, your Poi student will be living into her past until she learns how to deal with that past situation and move on. Then she will be living into her future, and will reach her full potential with Poi or whatever she wants to do.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

 Written by: Stone

I�d still call the people on self-directed spiritual paths hedonists



this would include ALL prophets, Zoroaster, Aaron, Mose, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed...

ALL spiritual paths started with the first step, one self-directed individual. I'm afraid I have to say, you seem not to see the forest, because of all the trees.

Wealth still is a synonym for "successful spirituality at work". It might be erroneous but very common - others have proven that being a saint, wearing nice garments and living in a beautiful house don't necessarily contradict each other. It's a choice... and as every choice, it's necessary.




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the best smiles are the ones you lead to