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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I was discussing this with a coworker yesterday.

At which point does something stop being the evolution of something old and start being concidered it's own new entity on it's own path?

For example, I've seen bellydance evolve to the point where some of the newer forms don't really include bellydance anymore (so the term Fusion Dance is being used).

If you look at Maori Poi performance (not the tools themselves) the resemblence to alot of contemporary poi is slim to none.

Hell, somewhere along the line we went from ape to human.

Where is the line, in your opinion? Or is it more like a catch .22 where it always circles back to the beginning? (like in ATS Bellydance the "new" big thing is Tribal:Pura, which is a new name given to the original ATS.)

This is actually something I am not sure of my opinion on at all (shocking, I know wink ) so I am interested to here thoughts.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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burningoftheclavey
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

burningoftheclavey

lurking like a ninja with no camouflage..
Location: over yonder, New Zealand

Total posts: 926
Posted:surely it would continue being an evolution of the original but have a new name for it, ie. fusion dance is still an evolution of bellydance but just branded a different style of bellydancing.

because evolution is always occurring, yes?

maori poi and contemporary poi are still using the same tools but just in a different style, theres a definite evolution there.

and there are definitely some humans out there who could still be considered apes! ubblol


on spam robots - "Burn the robot! Melt him down, and then we can make lots and lots of money from his shiiiny juices!"

Owned by Brenn smile

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BurdaA
SILVER Member since Jul 2007

BurdaA

Sacrebleu
Location: At the quiet limit, United Kin...

Total posts: 377
Posted:I think it varies depending on subject matter. Biologically I have a lot of questions about evolution so I can't really help there, but as far as art forms and such go I guess it's entirely down to the artist and whats culturally/personally relevant and *shudders* contemporary during an idea's conception.



Personally I never span Maori style so didn't evolve as such myself, but I guess as soon as someone/something puts it's own spin on things (puntastic eh?), it begins to evolve... for better or worse. So when someone saw Maori poi and said BIGGER...SLOWER...right..now try hybrids, I guess it was about to evolve..slowly.



I guess my point is there surely wasn't a point at which something clicked. Just like with biological evolution, things can be inspired in an instant but that doesn't necessarily make them happen in an instant.



It would be nice to put your finger on a moment for a lot of things, but thats what I like about reality, the lines are more blurry.



Just thoughts.. sorry if they don't make sense smile


Poi(poi~y) n. : A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.
- part owner of Wooktastic

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Fire_Moose
SILVER Member since May 2007

Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA

Total posts: 3597
Posted:Everyone has there own form. And what is evolution but a giant family tree. Bellydance may have numerous branches and im not sure when you may say that a new branch is formed. Take staff, you may start at staff spinning or staff martial arts. either way they are 2 seperate forms stemming from the same branch. Would contact be a third branch or coming off of one of the other 2? i dunno. Im not very useful....lol

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I think biologically (though I may remember incorrectly from back in zoology) it's evolved into 2 species if they can't reproduce with each other, otherwise it's just "2 types of dog". Exceptions like horses and donkeys exist, but their offspring is usually sterile.

That would be a bit difficult to transfer to the arts. But I don't think it matters, it's more a case of if a new name comes up and sticks then that's it. See the whole music definitions ("We are NOT Indie-Pop. We are Hardcore-Garage-Emo, but not like Band XYZ, because we have our OWN style", and suddenly you have a huge crowd of people who say that you shouldn't listen to anything but the Smiths and Hardcore-Garage-Emo and make 500 Facebook/Myspace/Bebo groups about it).


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:when someone give something a new name that sticks would be my guess at an evolution. shrug it can't be based on time so much because some things just don't change.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Birgit


I think biologically (though I may remember incorrectly from back in zoology) it's evolved into 2 species if they can't reproduce with each other, otherwise it's just "2 types of dog". Exceptions like horses and donkeys exist, but their offspring is usually sterile.




The definitioin of a species is if two healthy members of said species can generally mate and produce fertile offspring.

So a horse and a donkey can produce offspring, but not fertile, so they are different species.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:When does it become an entity in it's own?

I think a lot of it is political. In the sense of the people who have the power to influence.

With languages for example, at what point to dialects evolve into separate languages? That's largely political, especially if you consider how similar some of the Scandinavian languages are; they're more similar than some dialects of English, yet they're considered separate languages.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Deamon_Llama
BRONZE Member since Oct 2007

Deamon_Llama

member
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 78
Posted:I can answer the language section, i did that in year 12. Dialects are considered of the same language if the people who speak them say they are. So for example in china you have many dialects of the same language, because the Chinese people say they are. But in Scandinavia, the people claim they are different languages, so they are.

I'm not sure if you can pull this over to species, but perhaps it may be the way of doing it, perhaps dogs think they're all dogs, and people think they're all people, etc. But then given that most of what animals think about when they think of other members of their species is who they can mate with, I might just be back to where we started.


---
No statements are true unless they can be proven scientifically.
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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:exactly, it's political.

Therefore in terms of arts such as spinning or belly dance, it would be up to people who are high figures in the arts and cultures they developed from to determine what they are. Surely if the Maori really wanted to they could get the ball rolling to claim that what we do is no-longer their poi evolved, but an independent art.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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