Forums > Social Discussion > Question about evolution
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the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I was discussing this with a coworker yesterday.
At which point does something stop being the evolution of something old and start being concidered it's own new entity on it's own path?
For example, I've seen bellydance evolve to the point where some of the newer forms don't really include bellydance anymore (so the term Fusion Dance is being used).
If you look at Maori Poi performance (not the tools themselves) the resemblence to alot of contemporary poi is slim to none.
Hell, somewhere along the line we went from ape to human.
Where is the line, in your opinion? Or is it more like a catch .22 where it always circles back to the beginning? (like in ATS Bellydance the "new" big thing is Tribal:Pura, which is a new name given to the original ATS.)
This is actually something I am not sure of my opinion on at all (shocking, I know
) so I am interested to here thoughts.
I was discussing this with a coworker yesterday.
At which point does something stop being the evolution of something old and start being concidered it's own new entity on it's own path?
For example, I've seen bellydance evolve to the point where some of the newer forms don't really include bellydance anymore (so the term Fusion Dance is being used).
If you look at Maori Poi performance (not the tools themselves) the resemblence to alot of contemporary poi is slim to none.
Hell, somewhere along the line we went from ape to human.
Where is the line, in your opinion? Or is it more like a catch .22 where it always circles back to the beginning? (like in ATS Bellydance the "new" big thing is Tribal:Pura, which is a new name given to the original ATS.)
This is actually something I am not sure of my opinion on at all (shocking, I know
) so I am interested to here thoughts.Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
SILVER Member
lurking like a ninja with no camouflage..
926 posts
Location: over yonder, New Zealand
lurking like a ninja with no camouflage..
926 posts
Location: over yonder, New Zealand
Posted:
surely it would continue being an evolution of the original but have a new name for it, ie. fusion dance is still an evolution of bellydance but just branded a different style of bellydancing.
because evolution is always occurring, yes?
maori poi and contemporary poi are still using the same tools but just in a different style, theres a definite evolution there.
and there are definitely some humans out there who could still be considered apes!
surely it would continue being an evolution of the original but have a new name for it, ie. fusion dance is still an evolution of bellydance but just branded a different style of bellydancing.
because evolution is always occurring, yes?
maori poi and contemporary poi are still using the same tools but just in a different style, theres a definite evolution there.
and there are definitely some humans out there who could still be considered apes!
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SILVER Member
Sacrebleu
377 posts
Location: At the quiet limit, United Kingdom
Sacrebleu
377 posts
Location: At the quiet limit, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think it varies depending on subject matter. Biologically I have a lot of questions about evolution so I can't really help there, but as far as art forms and such go I guess it's entirely down to the artist and whats culturally/personally relevant and *shudders* contemporary during an idea's conception.
Personally I never span Maori style so didn't evolve as such myself, but I guess as soon as someone/something puts it's own spin on things (puntastic eh?), it begins to evolve... for better or worse. So when someone saw Maori poi and said BIGGER...SLOWER...right..now try hybrids, I guess it was about to evolve..slowly.
I guess my point is there surely wasn't a point at which something clicked. Just like with biological evolution, things can be inspired in an instant but that doesn't necessarily make them happen in an instant.
It would be nice to put your finger on a moment for a lot of things, but thats what I like about reality, the lines are more blurry.
Just thoughts.. sorry if they don't make sense
I think it varies depending on subject matter. Biologically I have a lot of questions about evolution so I can't really help there, but as far as art forms and such go I guess it's entirely down to the artist and whats culturally/personally relevant and *shudders* contemporary during an idea's conception.
Personally I never span Maori style so didn't evolve as such myself, but I guess as soon as someone/something puts it's own spin on things (puntastic eh?), it begins to evolve... for better or worse. So when someone saw Maori poi and said BIGGER...SLOWER...right..now try hybrids, I guess it was about to evolve..slowly.
I guess my point is there surely wasn't a point at which something clicked. Just like with biological evolution, things can be inspired in an instant but that doesn't necessarily make them happen in an instant.
It would be nice to put your finger on a moment for a lot of things, but thats what I like about reality, the lines are more blurry.
Just thoughts.. sorry if they don't make sense
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SILVER Member
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Posted:
Everyone has there own form. And what is evolution but a giant family tree. Bellydance may have numerous branches and im not sure when you may say that a new branch is formed. Take staff, you may start at staff spinning or staff martial arts. either way they are 2 seperate forms stemming from the same branch. Would contact be a third branch or coming off of one of the other 2? i dunno. Im not very useful....lol
Everyone has there own form. And what is evolution but a giant family tree. Bellydance may have numerous branches and im not sure when you may say that a new branch is formed. Take staff, you may start at staff spinning or staff martial arts. either way they are 2 seperate forms stemming from the same branch. Would contact be a third branch or coming off of one of the other 2? i dunno. Im not very useful....lol
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BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I think biologically (though I may remember incorrectly from back in zoology) it's evolved into 2 species if they can't reproduce with each other, otherwise it's just "2 types of dog". Exceptions like horses and donkeys exist, but their offspring is usually sterile.
That would be a bit difficult to transfer to the arts. But I don't think it matters, it's more a case of if a new name comes up and sticks then that's it. See the whole music definitions ("We are NOT Indie-Pop. We are Hardcore-Garage-Emo, but not like Band XYZ, because we have our OWN style", and suddenly you have a huge crowd of people who say that you shouldn't listen to anything but the Smiths and Hardcore-Garage-Emo and make 500 Facebook/Myspace/Bebo groups about it).
I think biologically (though I may remember incorrectly from back in zoology) it's evolved into 2 species if they can't reproduce with each other, otherwise it's just "2 types of dog". Exceptions like horses and donkeys exist, but their offspring is usually sterile.
That would be a bit difficult to transfer to the arts. But I don't think it matters, it's more a case of if a new name comes up and sticks then that's it. See the whole music definitions ("We are NOT Indie-Pop. We are Hardcore-Garage-Emo, but not like Band XYZ, because we have our OWN style", and suddenly you have a huge crowd of people who say that you shouldn't listen to anything but the Smiths and Hardcore-Garage-Emo and make 500 Facebook/Myspace/Bebo groups about it).
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BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
when someone give something a new name that sticks would be my guess at an evolution.
it can't be based on time so much because some things just don't change.
when someone give something a new name that sticks would be my guess at an evolution.
it can't be based on time so much because some things just don't change. A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
The definitioin of a species is if two healthy members of said species can generally mate and produce fertile offspring.
So a horse and a donkey can produce offspring, but not fertile, so they are different species.
Written by: Birgit
I think biologically (though I may remember incorrectly from back in zoology) it's evolved into 2 species if they can't reproduce with each other, otherwise it's just "2 types of dog". Exceptions like horses and donkeys exist, but their offspring is usually sterile.
The definitioin of a species is if two healthy members of said species can generally mate and produce fertile offspring.
So a horse and a donkey can produce offspring, but not fertile, so they are different species.
-Mike
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BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
When does it become an entity in it's own?
I think a lot of it is political. In the sense of the people who have the power to influence.
With languages for example, at what point to dialects evolve into separate languages? That's largely political, especially if you consider how similar some of the Scandinavian languages are; they're more similar than some dialects of English, yet they're considered separate languages.
When does it become an entity in it's own?
I think a lot of it is political. In the sense of the people who have the power to influence.
With languages for example, at what point to dialects evolve into separate languages? That's largely political, especially if you consider how similar some of the Scandinavian languages are; they're more similar than some dialects of English, yet they're considered separate languages.
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BRONZE Member
member
78 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
member
78 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I can answer the language section, i did that in year 12. Dialects are considered of the same language if the people who speak them say they are. So for example in china you have many dialects of the same language, because the Chinese people say they are. But in Scandinavia, the people claim they are different languages, so they are.
I'm not sure if you can pull this over to species, but perhaps it may be the way of doing it, perhaps dogs think they're all dogs, and people think they're all people, etc. But then given that most of what animals think about when they think of other members of their species is who they can mate with, I might just be back to where we started.
I can answer the language section, i did that in year 12. Dialects are considered of the same language if the people who speak them say they are. So for example in china you have many dialects of the same language, because the Chinese people say they are. But in Scandinavia, the people claim they are different languages, so they are.
I'm not sure if you can pull this over to species, but perhaps it may be the way of doing it, perhaps dogs think they're all dogs, and people think they're all people, etc. But then given that most of what animals think about when they think of other members of their species is who they can mate with, I might just be back to where we started.
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No statements are true unless they can be proven scientifically.
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BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
exactly, it's political.
Therefore in terms of arts such as spinning or belly dance, it would be up to people who are high figures in the arts and cultures they developed from to determine what they are. Surely if the Maori really wanted to they could get the ball rolling to claim that what we do is no-longer their poi evolved, but an independent art.
exactly, it's political.
Therefore in terms of arts such as spinning or belly dance, it would be up to people who are high figures in the arts and cultures they developed from to determine what they are. Surely if the Maori really wanted to they could get the ball rolling to claim that what we do is no-longer their poi evolved, but an independent art.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
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