Forums > Technical Discussion > Teaching Moves Thread v2.0
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Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
The teaching moves thread. v2.0
Soooooo, I've been thinking about this, cos of making a tutorial DVD. Teaching people in general is a interesting area when there isn't any definatives on correct technique nor are there any rules. Super badly written, but at work, no time to proof read.
So when you're teaching someone something, there are certain ways of teaching that are going to work best for them, but you won't know them in advance, you have to discover them for each individual... and sometimes they have to discover them for themselves, or even find new techniques.
Nor do you know what part of what you teach, or what you say is going to be taken on board by the student. In essense, you don't know if what you say / show them will inspire or ultimately stagnant their passion for what your teaching them.
On one hand it could be that you say a a particular sentence like: "everything can also be done in horizontal" and they go away and learn everything they can in horizontal, leading them to new and cool things and ultimately they become as passionate as you about the subject.
On the other, they get frustrated by the huge range of possibilities this opens up and they can't even learn an easy move in horizontal, so they give up learning the art and don't do it anymore.
To what extent could saying something different have changed those two's future course? If you had said more to the second would they have stayed inspired and gone on to become a great spinner, experienced satisfaction from spinning that they didn't get from any other source?
If you had said more to the first spinner, would they have revaluated their entire learning style, quickly jumping ahead in all aspects of spinning and starting to concentrate on learning how to learn...
What you say to students can affect their passion and decision to continue with spinning, maybe not to the great extent pictured above, but certainly to some extent, and to some people to the extent above, or even at some critical times in your learning, you can affect a student that much.
I don't know. I certainly don't want to ruin someones passion by saying the wrong thing for them... but in a big group of people you've got to try and teach them all as best you can... what works for one might destroy another...
Something I've heard is that motivation is more important that ability sometimes. If you've motivated to learn something, I'm sure nothing will get in the way of your learning it. Likewise if you enjoy it, you shouldn't need motivation to do it, it should be it's own reward.
So if I happen to teach bad technique... it might ingrain bad habits in people... but they will have learnt it. Subsequently some of them might become depresseed and irritated that they're doing the trick 'wrong' and that they need to relearn it, others will relearn it and file the bad technique as a way to recover from a failed move or just as a bead of technique they won't need to use again, but that's good to know. They might awaken and look over all their technique for bad habits.
Ultimately of course, I'll never know what will affect a person in their future passion for spinning, or even if I can affect them.
But sometimes I thinks I should be more careful with teaching... it can change somebodies life don't cha know?
If I make it seem too easy will they not be motivated to learn? If I overload them with knowledge will they be burnt out before they even go home and practise? If I don't teach them enough will they not come back to spinning cos it's too easy? If I teach them at all will that stifle their natural style because they'll be busy learning tricks / my style instead? Will I, by teaching them, stop them developing along their own natural paths and finding whole new areas of spinning, because they're learning stuff already found?
Will what i say and teach affect what they think are the 'rules' of spinning? Or create in them the idea of 'rules' where there are none? (Plane Breaking = bad would be an example of a rule I like.) Will that stop them exploring entire areas of spinning? Just cos of something I said that they took to heart?
Is something better than nothing even when the something is a bit wrong? (bad technique.)
These are not reasons for me (at least) to not teach. [I have much better reasons than these not to teach, but still i do.] Rather, they are worries I have. All the time.
The teaching moves thread. v2.0
Soooooo, I've been thinking about this, cos of making a tutorial DVD. Teaching people in general is a interesting area when there isn't any definatives on correct technique nor are there any rules. Super badly written, but at work, no time to proof read.
So when you're teaching someone something, there are certain ways of teaching that are going to work best for them, but you won't know them in advance, you have to discover them for each individual... and sometimes they have to discover them for themselves, or even find new techniques.
Nor do you know what part of what you teach, or what you say is going to be taken on board by the student. In essense, you don't know if what you say / show them will inspire or ultimately stagnant their passion for what your teaching them.
On one hand it could be that you say a a particular sentence like: "everything can also be done in horizontal" and they go away and learn everything they can in horizontal, leading them to new and cool things and ultimately they become as passionate as you about the subject.
On the other, they get frustrated by the huge range of possibilities this opens up and they can't even learn an easy move in horizontal, so they give up learning the art and don't do it anymore.
To what extent could saying something different have changed those two's future course? If you had said more to the second would they have stayed inspired and gone on to become a great spinner, experienced satisfaction from spinning that they didn't get from any other source?
If you had said more to the first spinner, would they have revaluated their entire learning style, quickly jumping ahead in all aspects of spinning and starting to concentrate on learning how to learn...
What you say to students can affect their passion and decision to continue with spinning, maybe not to the great extent pictured above, but certainly to some extent, and to some people to the extent above, or even at some critical times in your learning, you can affect a student that much.
I don't know. I certainly don't want to ruin someones passion by saying the wrong thing for them... but in a big group of people you've got to try and teach them all as best you can... what works for one might destroy another...
Something I've heard is that motivation is more important that ability sometimes. If you've motivated to learn something, I'm sure nothing will get in the way of your learning it. Likewise if you enjoy it, you shouldn't need motivation to do it, it should be it's own reward.
So if I happen to teach bad technique... it might ingrain bad habits in people... but they will have learnt it. Subsequently some of them might become depresseed and irritated that they're doing the trick 'wrong' and that they need to relearn it, others will relearn it and file the bad technique as a way to recover from a failed move or just as a bead of technique they won't need to use again, but that's good to know. They might awaken and look over all their technique for bad habits.
Ultimately of course, I'll never know what will affect a person in their future passion for spinning, or even if I can affect them.
But sometimes I thinks I should be more careful with teaching... it can change somebodies life don't cha know?
If I make it seem too easy will they not be motivated to learn? If I overload them with knowledge will they be burnt out before they even go home and practise? If I don't teach them enough will they not come back to spinning cos it's too easy? If I teach them at all will that stifle their natural style because they'll be busy learning tricks / my style instead? Will I, by teaching them, stop them developing along their own natural paths and finding whole new areas of spinning, because they're learning stuff already found?
Will what i say and teach affect what they think are the 'rules' of spinning? Or create in them the idea of 'rules' where there are none? (Plane Breaking = bad would be an example of a rule I like.) Will that stop them exploring entire areas of spinning? Just cos of something I said that they took to heart?
Is something better than nothing even when the something is a bit wrong? (bad technique.)
These are not reasons for me (at least) to not teach. [I have much better reasons than these not to teach, but still i do.] Rather, they are worries I have. All the time.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Pinker than thou
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
Posted:
And as such you have the exact same worries as any teacher who thinks about what they're doing...
There are acres of very dull text on pedagogic theory, most of which come down to "people learn in different ways". Currently in vogue is that people are audio, visual and/or kinaesthetic learners to varying degrees - That is, some folk will learn best by watching, some folk will learn best by listening, and others will learn best by doing. So in planning teaching one should address all three possibilities.
As to teaching a "bad" technique - is there really any such thing in a physical art like spinning? There are just different techniques, and different ways of getting the "same" move - if a way doesn't work for someone you teach, they'll more than likely morph it into a way that does work for them. (On a personal level, think of the difference between our fast 8s with whips - you (if I remember right) do a straight volley, I roll my wrist - are we doing the same move different ways, or are we doing different moves?). (I'm excluding in my notion of bad technique in physical arts those techniques that damage the practitioner, but then pain is a good way to get most folk to stop doing something...)
I think the key to having a student engaged is the teacher's enthusiasm for the topic; if you're being taught by someone who obviously doesn't care, then you're going to pick up on that and at some level question the worth of the information being presented by your mentor.
Written by: mcp
These are not reasons for me (at least) to not teach. [I have much better reasons than these not to teach, but still i do.] Rather, they are worries I have. All the time.
And as such you have the exact same worries as any teacher who thinks about what they're doing...
There are acres of very dull text on pedagogic theory, most of which come down to "people learn in different ways". Currently in vogue is that people are audio, visual and/or kinaesthetic learners to varying degrees - That is, some folk will learn best by watching, some folk will learn best by listening, and others will learn best by doing. So in planning teaching one should address all three possibilities.
As to teaching a "bad" technique - is there really any such thing in a physical art like spinning? There are just different techniques, and different ways of getting the "same" move - if a way doesn't work for someone you teach, they'll more than likely morph it into a way that does work for them. (On a personal level, think of the difference between our fast 8s with whips - you (if I remember right) do a straight volley, I roll my wrist - are we doing the same move different ways, or are we doing different moves?). (I'm excluding in my notion of bad technique in physical arts those techniques that damage the practitioner, but then pain is a good way to get most folk to stop doing something...)
I think the key to having a student engaged is the teacher's enthusiasm for the topic; if you're being taught by someone who obviously doesn't care, then you're going to pick up on that and at some level question the worth of the information being presented by your mentor.
A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the 
up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
aaaalllll ttthhheee ttiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmme!
i like this one better.
tho im not sure if it warrants a reply beyond 'yeah, i guess'
T
aaaalllll ttthhheee ttiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmme!
i like this one better.
tho im not sure if it warrants a reply beyond 'yeah, i guess'
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
Maybe I should make it more topical...
No there are definately bad techniques in spinning. Things that damage being one, stuff that hits you by accident is bad, a technique that offers no route to more technique and doesn't perform as well as another alternate technique for the same movement is clearly poorer. But spinning hasn't been around as long I think, to discover these techniques.
What is me keeping my wrist straight will stop me feeling the whip so much, and make an advanced version of the volley much harder? Then clearly I've learned poor technique... (assuming many things like there are no other volley variants where the straight wrist is preferable etc) and that if I'd learned to roll my wrist, I would be able to learn more quickly, more advanced moves, and not have to relearn the volley...
Maybe I should make it more topical...
No there are definately bad techniques in spinning. Things that damage being one, stuff that hits you by accident is bad, a technique that offers no route to more technique and doesn't perform as well as another alternate technique for the same movement is clearly poorer. But spinning hasn't been around as long I think, to discover these techniques.
What is me keeping my wrist straight will stop me feeling the whip so much, and make an advanced version of the volley much harder? Then clearly I've learned poor technique... (assuming many things like there are no other volley variants where the straight wrist is preferable etc) and that if I'd learned to roll my wrist, I would be able to learn more quickly, more advanced moves, and not have to relearn the volley...
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
MCP Do we get commission on your DVD if we answer this thread?
It's a question that take a long time to answer it.
Surely your getting some answers from that 6 week evening class in staff that you're teaching in preparation for the DVD?
MCP Do we get commission on your DVD if we answer this thread?
It's a question that take a long time to answer it.
Surely your getting some answers from that 6 week evening class in staff that you're teaching in preparation for the DVD?
Pinker than thou
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
Posted:
Just to be clear here, I used that example as one of two people doing the same move different ways, I meant no implication that your way was/is a lesser or bad version.
If anything, I think mine is probably the bad one, since I can fast 8 but my volleys don't work...
Right, enough of this, I'm going to Bristol...
Written by: mcp
What is me keeping my wrist straight will stop me feeling the whip so much, and make an advanced version of the volley much harder? Then clearly I've learned poor technique... (assuming many things like there are no other volley variants where the straight wrist is preferable etc) and that if I'd learned to roll my wrist, I would be able to learn more quickly, more advanced moves, and not have to relearn the volley...
Just to be clear here, I used that example as one of two people doing the same move different ways, I meant no implication that your way was/is a lesser or bad version.
If anything, I think mine is probably the bad one, since I can fast 8 but my volleys don't work...
Right, enough of this, I'm going to Bristol...
A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
yeah, mine was also an example, as I have no idea of what the correct technique for the volley is, I only know what my flatmate showed me.
drew: no. In the end a dvd is a single unchanging document of teaching, so I can only teach to the best of my ability, and without tailoring it to one individual 'way' of teaching.
That doesn't mean I don't worry thou. I like to grind my teeth at night. Like I did when I was a kid. My (mums) fault, I'm sure.
Even If I were doing a 6 week course, there isn't anybody here to take it.
And I don't want to teach my friends what they would have known if they hadn't stopped practising. Leaves a bad taste in my mind. And to get good at motivating people, I'd probably have to run 6, 6 week courses.
I'm taking my experience from the 4 years of workshops I've done. Hopefully that will have been enough.
yeah, mine was also an example, as I have no idea of what the correct technique for the volley is, I only know what my flatmate showed me.
drew: no. In the end a dvd is a single unchanging document of teaching, so I can only teach to the best of my ability, and without tailoring it to one individual 'way' of teaching.
That doesn't mean I don't worry thou. I like to grind my teeth at night. Like I did when I was a kid. My (mums) fault, I'm sure.
Even If I were doing a 6 week course, there isn't anybody here to take it.
And I don't want to teach my friends what they would have known if they hadn't stopped practising. Leaves a bad taste in my mind. And to get good at motivating people, I'd probably have to run 6, 6 week courses. I'm taking my experience from the 4 years of workshops I've done. Hopefully that will have been enough.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
SILVER Member
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Posted:
I wanna take your course.
Is there any more information on the DVD?
I wanna take your course
.Is there any more information on the DVD?
O.B.E.S.E.
Owned by Mynci!
SILVER Member
member
49 posts
Location: Cypress (Houston), Texas, USA
member
49 posts
Location: Cypress (Houston), Texas, USA
Posted:
Learning a trick is mostly muscle memory. I've never seen anyone whose never done the three beat before, and flat off the back do the simple three beat. Spinning feels natural to experienced spinnner's that it feels like the poi are an extension to thier body while doing practiced moves.
Very good point in the motivation, I'm barely motivated, and for the most part I'm self taught. The only technique I employ is the ones I've gained through watches moves and interpreting them into my spinning. Some of them are nothing alike other spinner's, but its hard to see how a corkscrew could wrong. Yet, I'm not motivated as much as I used to be, I only get about 30 minutes a day and random 3 hour spree's when I'm with my friend. I have to visually learn a trick via watching a video online (how I learned the five beat) as there is a severe lack of spinners in my area. I can't learn anything off the voluptuous text in this forum sadly. If only teachers would conspire and form a universal curriculum (or directorie) for spinning techniques. Would be quite a useful tool for teachers and spinners alike. I don't understand Poi science at all o.o, if only the Poi nerds would stop and translate it for us ^_^
Learning a trick is mostly muscle memory. I've never seen anyone whose never done the three beat before, and flat off the back do the simple three beat. Spinning feels natural to experienced spinnner's that it feels like the poi are an extension to thier body while doing practiced moves.
Very good point in the motivation, I'm barely motivated, and for the most part I'm self taught. The only technique I employ is the ones I've gained through watches moves and interpreting them into my spinning. Some of them are nothing alike other spinner's, but its hard to see how a corkscrew could wrong. Yet, I'm not motivated as much as I used to be, I only get about 30 minutes a day and random 3 hour spree's when I'm with my friend. I have to visually learn a trick via watching a video online (how I learned the five beat) as there is a severe lack of spinners in my area. I can't learn anything off the voluptuous text in this forum sadly. If only teachers would conspire and form a universal curriculum (or directorie) for spinning techniques. Would be quite a useful tool for teachers and spinners alike. I don't understand Poi science at all o.o, if only the Poi nerds would stop and translate it for us ^_^
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
"Learning a trick is mostly muscle memory"
I disagree with that almost completely.... Polishing/perfecting a trick is mostly muscle memory.
Learning the trick you need understanding; either in terms of what the prop is doing, what your body is doing, why it works, why it doesn't work, or at least have a good idea of what you're aiming at.
The muscle memory only comes into play with repetitive motions of doing it correctly, or rather correct enough for the trick to work more than 50% enabling you to polish out the mistakes/errors/innaccuracies.
"Learning a trick is mostly muscle memory"
I disagree with that almost completely.... Polishing/perfecting a trick is mostly muscle memory.
Learning the trick you need understanding; either in terms of what the prop is doing, what your body is doing, why it works, why it doesn't work, or at least have a good idea of what you're aiming at.
The muscle memory only comes into play with repetitive motions of doing it correctly, or rather correct enough for the trick to work more than 50% enabling you to polish out the mistakes/errors/innaccuracies.
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
In reply to The Meg:
I especially agree about the "worry" of too much/not enough information when showing someone something - almost on a micro/macro level of spinning.
Recent example: Teaching someone (who could already hyperloop fairly well) airwraps. I explaing:- adding and taking away beats, turning planes, infinite hyperloops... Yet the person I was teaching hadn't nailed either hyperloops or airwraps.
(Micro: Why hyperloops work - Macro: Other stuff you can do with tangles)
If it was me being taught, I find it really inspiring to see what learning one move can lead on to - but equally I can see that as being wholly overwhelming.
But then a 20 minute session on perfecting hyperloops/airwraps is equally as off-putting.
In reply to The Meg:
I especially agree about the "worry" of too much/not enough information when showing someone something - almost on a micro/macro level of spinning.
Recent example: Teaching someone (who could already hyperloop fairly well) airwraps. I explaing:- adding and taking away beats, turning planes, infinite hyperloops... Yet the person I was teaching hadn't nailed either hyperloops or airwraps.
(Micro: Why hyperloops work - Macro: Other stuff you can do with tangles)
If it was me being taught, I find it really inspiring to see what learning one move can lead on to - but equally I can see that as being wholly overwhelming.
But then a 20 minute session on perfecting hyperloops/airwraps is equally as off-putting.
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
SILVER Member
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Posted:
This isnt going to come out like i want it to but...
I think its better to learn where a move can take you on your own, or inspired by a video. I think that if someone shows you something and then starts going off into what you can do from there, you lose sight of the initial move. If you teach someone the move and then let them experiment with it they can (or at least i can) start thinking about where it can lead after ive gotten it down.
Example is I watched a video of a full steve and thought WTF? I tried it and tried it and it just wasnt working. So I started with my staff up in the air horizontally and spun it counter clock wise, it rolled on my forearm then my upper arm and i would catch with the same hand. After i was doing that i got thinking, Hmmm what if i did this? Now i have 3-4 variations i can do from that (inside steve) move. I still cant do a full steve but the mechanics are there.
did that make sence?
Written by: Durbs
If it was me being taught, I find it really inspiring to see what learning one move can lead on to
This isnt going to come out like i want it to but...
I think its better to learn where a move can take you on your own, or inspired by a video. I think that if someone shows you something and then starts going off into what you can do from there, you lose sight of the initial move. If you teach someone the move and then let them experiment with it they can (or at least i can) start thinking about where it can lead after ive gotten it down.
Example is I watched a video of a full steve and thought WTF? I tried it and tried it and it just wasnt working. So I started with my staff up in the air horizontally and spun it counter clock wise, it rolled on my forearm then my upper arm and i would catch with the same hand. After i was doing that i got thinking, Hmmm what if i did this? Now i have 3-4 variations i can do from that (inside steve) move. I still cant do a full steve but the mechanics are there.
did that make sence?
O.B.E.S.E.
Owned by Mynci!
SILVER Member
member
49 posts
Location: Cypress (Houston), Texas, USA
member
49 posts
Location: Cypress (Houston), Texas, USA
Posted:
Durbs you are quite right. Realized my mistake after thinking about it ^^.
Teaching is never "even". People learn at different paces, so you've always got your work cut out for you. Whats overwhelming to some is just the right pace for others. The key is to find a balance so the majority of people are able to roll along smoothly while thier interest is kept, and the slower student's at a pace thier able to keep up with some extra effort and or practice.
Durbs you are quite right. Realized my mistake after thinking about it ^^.
Teaching is never "even". People learn at different paces, so you've always got your work cut out for you. Whats overwhelming to some is just the right pace for others. The key is to find a balance so the majority of people are able to roll along smoothly while thier interest is kept, and the slower student's at a pace thier able to keep up with some extra effort and or practice.
BRONZE Member
delectatio morosa, gaudium, desiderium
160 posts
Location: furthur..., Germany
delectatio morosa, gaudium, desiderium
160 posts
Location: furthur..., Germany
Posted:
wait was that me?
Written by: Durbs
Recent example: Teaching someone (who could already hyperloop fairly well) airwraps. I explaing:- adding and taking away beats, turning planes, infinite hyperloops... Yet the person I was teaching hadn't nailed either hyperloops or airwraps.
(Micro: Why hyperloops work - Macro: Other stuff you can do with tangles)
wait was that me?
meow
happy little panda bear 
i love you
Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posted:
I've never found there to be one perfect way to teach anyone something physical and especially something artistic like dancing.... nor have I ever found there to be one perfect way to learn. I'm sorry. I just think it's all about being creative as both a teacher and a student to work things out based off of the unique dynamics of your interaction and off of the student's learning style.
Take, I school at a riding academy in show jumping and dressage. Never was this truer than there. Everything can change based off of the condition of the arena (fast and dry, slow and soppy, etc.), the horse, the rider, the gear, the course, the trainer. And even the most predictable and honest "plugs" of school horses can have their days where they can either have a kick in their stride or the foulest of tempers. The best teachers I've found are ones who can roll with the punches and adjust the training program to still further their student along in the direction they want, but keep everyone safe. Just like the best students I've seen are ones who will just sit, trust their instructors, and try new things.
Iunno. Rambling now.
I've never found there to be one perfect way to teach anyone something physical and especially something artistic like dancing.... nor have I ever found there to be one perfect way to learn. I'm sorry. I just think it's all about being creative as both a teacher and a student to work things out based off of the unique dynamics of your interaction and off of the student's learning style.
Take, I school at a riding academy in show jumping and dressage. Never was this truer than there. Everything can change based off of the condition of the arena (fast and dry, slow and soppy, etc.), the horse, the rider, the gear, the course, the trainer. And even the most predictable and honest "plugs" of school horses can have their days where they can either have a kick in their stride or the foulest of tempers. The best teachers I've found are ones who can roll with the punches and adjust the training program to still further their student along in the direction they want, but keep everyone safe. Just like the best students I've seen are ones who will just sit, trust their instructors, and try new things.
Iunno. Rambling now.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
GOLD Member
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Posted:
Personally for me when people ask me to teach them things I have found a few things help. I am only referring to MY OWN experiences and in no way suggesting that this this will work for everyone.
Examine the temperament of your 'student', see what their confidence level is. I've often found there are a few people who sheepishly cry 'I can't do it! I'm sh*t!'. This is the ONLY time I administer a bit of tough love in which I say something to the effect of
"OK, firstly, stop looking like you're gonna burst into tears or as if I'm gonna bite your head off, you're gonna be playing with flaming balls and chains and sticks so you're gonna need more balls if I'm gonna teach you anything! Do me a favour, grow a pair and believe in yourself! This is NOT gonna happen overnight!"
Surprisingly this DOES put the initially sheepish ones at ease! (Don't go overboard)
Specifically, are you gonna including your L.A.B animations on the DVD? Please do, they help LOADS!
As well as the technical theory, I do try to engage their imagination instead JUST saying 'put your arm here and here'. My favourite one I tend to use again and again is for flowers and longarm stuff where I tell them to "remember those mittens you used to wear as a kid, the ones with a piece of string in the middle, imagine you're trying to pull them as far apart and as taut as possible. Now spin your arms in a circle with that in mind!" There are other examples but I can't be arsed! It's good to strike the right balance/mixture of both. Like the with antispin stuff, where you tell them to imagine the horizontal/vertical axis and imagine you're drawing lines with a pencil. Stuff that like tends to be more helpful than a barrage of arm positions.
Personally for me when people ask me to teach them things I have found a few things help. I am only referring to MY OWN experiences and in no way suggesting that this this will work for everyone.
Examine the temperament of your 'student', see what their confidence level is. I've often found there are a few people who sheepishly cry 'I can't do it! I'm sh*t!'. This is the ONLY time I administer a bit of tough love in which I say something to the effect of
"OK, firstly, stop looking like you're gonna burst into tears or as if I'm gonna bite your head off, you're gonna be playing with flaming balls and chains and sticks so you're gonna need more balls if I'm gonna teach you anything! Do me a favour, grow a pair and believe in yourself! This is NOT gonna happen overnight!"
Surprisingly this DOES put the initially sheepish ones at ease! (Don't go overboard)
Specifically, are you gonna including your L.A.B animations on the DVD? Please do, they help LOADS!
As well as the technical theory, I do try to engage their imagination instead JUST saying 'put your arm here and here'. My favourite one I tend to use again and again is for flowers and longarm stuff where I tell them to "remember those mittens you used to wear as a kid, the ones with a piece of string in the middle, imagine you're trying to pull them as far apart and as taut as possible. Now spin your arms in a circle with that in mind!" There are other examples but I can't be arsed!
It's good to strike the right balance/mixture of both. Like the with antispin stuff, where you tell them to imagine the horizontal/vertical axis and imagine you're drawing lines with a pencil. Stuff that like tends to be more helpful than a barrage of arm positions. "I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
mcp:"
>I'm taking my experience from the 4 years of workshops I've done. Hopefully that will have been enough. "
If its "hopefully" then this will probably be a rather stressful DVD making experience for you.
Good luck with writing the 6 week course
mcp:"
>I'm taking my experience from the 4 years of workshops I've done. Hopefully that will have been enough. "
If its "hopefully" then this will probably be a rather stressful DVD making experience for you.
Good luck with writing the 6 week course
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
learn by example - watch the enyclopoidia again
T
learn by example - watch the enyclopoidia again
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Threre is thread about teaching
in Social discussion.
somewhere,
:R
Threre is thread about teaching
in Social discussion.
somewhere,
:R
POI THEO(R)IST
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
6 weeks isn't what I'm talking about. I was talking about the difference between somebody spinning for ten years, or someone giving up after a couple. This might not be in my power to affect, even if I'm the best teacher in the world, but I can still worry.
As for teaching my friends, I hate that. It's so embarrassing to be teaching somebody who you used to learn from. Especially when you know the only difference between you is that you practised more. All I really want to say is sorry. Sorry I didn't leave that for you to discover... sorry I'm now teaching it to you adn sorry you didn't have enough time to practise. Plus it kinda makes me feel bad, cos I might be making them feel bad, bad enough to stop spinning again. It's okay with the ones you know are in it for the long term... (if you can ever know that) but the ones that might just give up and go back to other hobbies? It makes me uncomfortable.
tom: Yeah I was totally just going to copy the poidia's introduction: "If you can't do these moves, look more closely at what I do, put your arms in the same position my arms are in and move your body in the same way I do and your poi will have no choice but to do what my poi do."
Seems like a good disclaimer to me!
durbs: Yeah I get what you mean. It's hard to strike a balance for sure... and different levels have different balances. Different people have different approaches. If you say hybrid to a systematic high level spinner, he'll go away and work out all positions of them and then work on variations... you don't need to do anything. You barely have to teach him the move cos the motivation to learn it is already there. But to motivate a beginner you have to show them something cool that they're going to get to, by improving their basics... (maybe) [and that might be the teaching moves thread proper]
Reminds me of the time when bluecat showed me what contact was before leaving for aussie land for 6 months. I can barely remember what he did, but in my mind it's like meastick 10.
Written by: Glåss
If its "hopefully" then this will probably be a rather stressful DVD making experience for you.
Good luck with writing the 6 week course
6 weeks isn't what I'm talking about. I was talking about the difference between somebody spinning for ten years, or someone giving up after a couple. This might not be in my power to affect, even if I'm the best teacher in the world, but I can still worry.
As for teaching my friends, I hate that. It's so embarrassing to be teaching somebody who you used to learn from. Especially when you know the only difference between you is that you practised more. All I really want to say is sorry. Sorry I didn't leave that for you to discover... sorry I'm now teaching it to you adn sorry you didn't have enough time to practise. Plus it kinda makes me feel bad, cos I might be making them feel bad, bad enough to stop spinning again. It's okay with the ones you know are in it for the long term... (if you can ever know that) but the ones that might just give up and go back to other hobbies? It makes me uncomfortable.
tom: Yeah I was totally just going to copy the poidia's introduction: "If you can't do these moves, look more closely at what I do, put your arms in the same position my arms are in and move your body in the same way I do and your poi will have no choice but to do what my poi do."
Seems like a good disclaimer to me!
durbs: Yeah I get what you mean. It's hard to strike a balance for sure... and different levels have different balances. Different people have different approaches. If you say hybrid to a systematic high level spinner, he'll go away and work out all positions of them and then work on variations... you don't need to do anything. You barely have to teach him the move cos the motivation to learn it is already there. But to motivate a beginner you have to show them something cool that they're going to get to, by improving their basics... (maybe) [and that might be the teaching moves thread proper]
Reminds me of the time when bluecat showed me what contact was before leaving for aussie land for 6 months. I can barely remember what he did, but in my mind it's like meastick 10.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
i dunno about that, people normally stop because they arnt enjoying it anymore, maybe because some technical thing just wont work and they prefer to learn something else. I know that was the case for me, stick becaume difficult and limited because only the hardest stuff is left, and at the same time discover poi, where you h=can make circles wherever you want without breaking your wrist, or contac ball, with is again like staff but more free, and the object bacn roll in any direction, and it floats!
Maybe you refering more to someone like dave, who gave up all manipulation in order to concentrate on another feild? Either way there is no reason to feel guilty, they asked, they want to know. Yeah its a pain teaching someone you know hasnt got the joy to give it the hours of solitary practice it needs to get right, but as you said, the motvational power of the teacher is very important for finding this.
T
Written by: MCP
As for teaching my friends, I hate that. It's so embarrassing to be teaching somebody who you used to learn from. Especially when you know the only difference between you is that you practised more. All I really want to say is sorry. Sorry I didn't leave that for you to discover... sorry I'm now teaching it to you adn sorry you didn't have enough time to practise. Plus it kinda makes me feel bad, cos I might be making them feel bad, bad enough to stop spinning again.
i dunno about that, people normally stop because they arnt enjoying it anymore, maybe because some technical thing just wont work and they prefer to learn something else. I know that was the case for me, stick becaume difficult and limited because only the hardest stuff is left, and at the same time discover poi, where you h=can make circles wherever you want without breaking your wrist, or contac ball, with is again like staff but more free, and the object bacn roll in any direction, and it floats!
Maybe you refering more to someone like dave, who gave up all manipulation in order to concentrate on another feild? Either way there is no reason to feel guilty, they asked, they want to know. Yeah its a pain teaching someone you know hasnt got the joy to give it the hours of solitary practice it needs to get right, but as you said, the motvational power of the teacher is very important for finding this.
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,174 posts
Location: Great Malvern [UK]
old hand
1,174 posts
Location: Great Malvern [UK]
Posted:
There's some really interesting stuff in this thread. I can definitely identify with what you're saying there Meg. I've taught a lot of friends the basics of poi (3-beat weave etc.) and have found myself on several occasions showing people too much. When I see them starting to get frustrated I used to put in a "Remember; this is what you're aiming for and these are all things that can stem from what I'm teaching you"... with some people it works very well, but I'm sure that it puts off just as many.
One of the biggest hindrances to getting lots of newbies started on the road to addicted spinning (I think) is trying to teach a mix of people from scratch. Inevitably, those who are naturally more coordinated, learn by watching / doing, have a little more confidence, learn well by my methods of teaching etc. etc. progress much quicker than those who don't. The result is that the slower learners rapidly get frustrated because:
a) They can't quite seem to get it
b) Other people can!!
I think in the future I'm going to be more careful about the groups I teach people in (not just poi here - I have a lot of hobbies which these things apply to
) and making sure I show them enough to keep them interested without then rushing off to do moves that are months ahead of their ability. If I'm teaching I'll teach but if I'm trying to learn new moves myself I'll do that separately.
My 2p
Written by: mcp
What you say to students can affect their passion and decision to continue with spinning, maybe not to the great extent pictured above, but certainly to some extent, and to some people to the extent above, or even at some critical times in your learning, you can affect a student that much.
There's some really interesting stuff in this thread. I can definitely identify with what you're saying there Meg. I've taught a lot of friends the basics of poi (3-beat weave etc.) and have found myself on several occasions showing people too much. When I see them starting to get frustrated I used to put in a "Remember; this is what you're aiming for and these are all things that can stem from what I'm teaching you"... with some people it works very well, but I'm sure that it puts off just as many.
One of the biggest hindrances to getting lots of newbies started on the road to addicted spinning (I think) is trying to teach a mix of people from scratch. Inevitably, those who are naturally more coordinated, learn by watching / doing, have a little more confidence, learn well by my methods of teaching etc. etc. progress much quicker than those who don't. The result is that the slower learners rapidly get frustrated because:
a) They can't quite seem to get it
b) Other people can!!
I think in the future I'm going to be more careful about the groups I teach people in (not just poi here - I have a lot of hobbies which these things apply to
) and making sure I show them enough to keep them interested without then rushing off to do moves that are months ahead of their ability. If I'm teaching I'll teach but if I'm trying to learn new moves myself I'll do that separately.My 2p
Cake or Death?
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
This is referred to as the zone of proximal development in constructivist educational theory.
I think it's pretty relevant here. I'd say that most 'poi teachers' completely ignore most educational theory. It's a shame because I think they'd benifit greatly.
Ironic since you've got the most gifted and talented poi "teachers" putting huge amounts of time and effort into learning poi and poi theory, and no time or effort into educational theory.
If you want to be a good teacher, figuring out "how people learn" is probably a good start.
In other news, I'm glad that Meg continues to be at the forefront of our community, battling staff and poi ignorance with a steel toed boot.
Good luck.
Written by: Durbs
In reply to The Meg:
I especially agree about the "worry" of too much/not enough information when showing someone something - almost on a micro/macro level of spinning.
This is referred to as the zone of proximal development in constructivist educational theory.
I think it's pretty relevant here. I'd say that most 'poi teachers' completely ignore most educational theory. It's a shame because I think they'd benifit greatly.
Ironic since you've got the most gifted and talented poi "teachers" putting huge amounts of time and effort into learning poi and poi theory, and no time or effort into educational theory.
If you want to be a good teacher, figuring out "how people learn" is probably a good start.
In other news, I'm glad that Meg continues to be at the forefront of our community, battling staff and poi ignorance with a steel toed boot.
Good luck.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
nice one NYC. Do you have any more links on education theory. All I know is hearsay about audio/visual/kinetic style of learners. I would appreciate having some linkies on the subject.
I've done a lot of learning, but I don't actually know much about it, I think.
> battling staff and poi ignorance with a steel toed boot.
Also, I have a cape.
nice one NYC. Do you have any more links on education theory. All I know is hearsay about audio/visual/kinetic style of learners. I would appreciate having some linkies on the subject.
I've done a lot of learning, but I don't actually know much about it, I think.
> battling staff and poi ignorance with a steel toed boot.
Also, I have a cape.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Pinker than thou
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
Posted:
More links to education theory than even Meg can shake a very large stick at just here
More links to education theory than even Meg can shake a very large stick at just here
A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
sorry, don't have time to look at the links: I'm at work. But, one of the the things I was taught on my TEFL course was PPP:
Presentation=showing people what to do
Practise=getting them to do something within a limited framework: in spinning terms, practising one part of a move: like a shoulderwrap in relation to a SNES
Production= getting the people to do what they were shown in the presentation stage
It's a gross simplification of the educational process, but for me, this is what works: I like to show people what to do, let them practise it in chunks and THEN attempt to fo what they're trying to do
As a side note, accuracy and correction should be very high in the initial stages and less so in the later stages. I.e when someone first does a matrix, don't say yeah but it was all sloppy and stuff.
sorry, don't have time to look at the links: I'm at work. But, one of the the things I was taught on my TEFL course was PPP:
Presentation=showing people what to do
Practise=getting them to do something within a limited framework: in spinning terms, practising one part of a move: like a shoulderwrap in relation to a SNES
Production= getting the people to do what they were shown in the presentation stage
It's a gross simplification of the educational process, but for me, this is what works: I like to show people what to do, let them practise it in chunks and THEN attempt to fo what they're trying to do
As a side note, accuracy and correction should be very high in the initial stages and less so in the later stages. I.e when someone first does a matrix, don't say yeah but it was all sloppy and stuff.
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
"Kind of - but now do it properly"
"Kind of - but now do it properly"
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
"do it again but less sh*t"
oh soooo offtopic.
"do it again but less sh*t"
oh soooo offtopic.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
what I meant more was, don't criticise people the first time they manage to do something, but then add constructive criticism at later stages (when they've had some time to practise) if that makes sense?
learning is an ongoing process, and we are consistently refining and adding to what we know.
Therefore I believe it makes sense to approach learning in a similar manner: lessons or workshops will help, but ultimately it is self development that makes a major difference between two people.
The problem is: emotional investment - we want to see people succeed and grow as spinners/learners/whatever, but ultimately the responsibility for any decisions taken with respect to studying belong to that person and no one else.
what I meant more was, don't criticise people the first time they manage to do something, but then add constructive criticism at later stages (when they've had some time to practise) if that makes sense?
learning is an ongoing process, and we are consistently refining and adding to what we know.
Therefore I believe it makes sense to approach learning in a similar manner: lessons or workshops will help, but ultimately it is self development that makes a major difference between two people.
The problem is: emotional investment - we want to see people succeed and grow as spinners/learners/whatever, but ultimately the responsibility for any decisions taken with respect to studying belong to that person and no one else.
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
Yeah, i read in a gymnastics book about a slightly pavlovian method of training young gymnasts. At the beginning you give them lots of encouragement and little criticism. Then as they improve you start to give them less encouragement and praise when they complete a correct movement and more criticism and you try and delay the praise from the correct actions, meaning they have to get it right several times before they get any praise. You toughen them up and try and get them to become self motivating. (Well maybe my short explanation maybe doesn't indicate that, but the book pretty much did.)
>The problem is: emotional investment - we want to see people succeed and grow as spinners/learners/whatever, but ultimately the responsibility for any decisions taken with respect to studying belong to that person and no one else.
Yeah, but the teachers hold some responsibility too. Bad teachers = bored students as ever. If a person is going to take it seriously, then that decision is their own. I think thou with the right teacher it's an easier decision, and an easier subject to learn.
I was just thinking that I really just want to tell people that they CAN learn a new skill. They can do anything. And for them to really believe it. But that might be a product of my own thoughts and issues when I was starting spinning/juggling.
I don't think there's any skill you can't learn, if you can learn how to keep yourself motivated.
Yeah, i read in a gymnastics book about a slightly pavlovian method of training young gymnasts. At the beginning you give them lots of encouragement and little criticism. Then as they improve you start to give them less encouragement and praise when they complete a correct movement and more criticism and you try and delay the praise from the correct actions, meaning they have to get it right several times before they get any praise. You toughen them up and try and get them to become self motivating. (Well maybe my short explanation maybe doesn't indicate that, but the book pretty much did.)
>The problem is: emotional investment - we want to see people succeed and grow as spinners/learners/whatever, but ultimately the responsibility for any decisions taken with respect to studying belong to that person and no one else.
Yeah, but the teachers hold some responsibility too. Bad teachers = bored students as ever. If a person is going to take it seriously, then that decision is their own. I think thou with the right teacher it's an easier decision, and an easier subject to learn.
I was just thinking that I really just want to tell people that they CAN learn a new skill. They can do anything. And for them to really believe it. But that might be a product of my own thoughts and issues when I was starting spinning/juggling.
I don't think there's any skill you can't learn, if you can learn how to keep yourself motivated.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
yeah, that's the idea: trying to keep a student motivated is important and there are things you can do to improve motivation.
It sounds like your underlying concern is about yourself as a teacher rather than the students. If you're really serious about it, you might want to start writing workshop/lesson plans, as this makes it easier to understand what you're trying to do, and can help you pinpoint when things go wrong.
Another thing you can do is just have someone watch you teaching and then feedback to you afterwards on how well it seemed to work
yeah, that's the idea: trying to keep a student motivated is important and there are things you can do to improve motivation.
It sounds like your underlying concern is about yourself as a teacher rather than the students. If you're really serious about it, you might want to start writing workshop/lesson plans, as this makes it easier to understand what you're trying to do, and can help you pinpoint when things go wrong.
Another thing you can do is just have someone watch you teaching and then feedback to you afterwards on how well it seemed to work
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
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