Written by: faithinfire
Jeff: You must not have been reading the thread then, because I believe most of us have brought instances where the gun is being used as protection, and not offensively, especially pounce and lurch.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
Written by: onewheeldaveWritten by: LazyAngel
Personally, I don't think automatic weapons should be available outside of the military. To ANYBODY.
They're not, in the US- it's been pointed out several times that automatic weapons are not available to civilians.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: stone
Lurch, perhaps paranoia is too strong a word. People living in other western democratic countries don’t seem to live with the same fear. I don’t understand why you don’t want to change this situation
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Apologies, faithinfire and pounce, I wasn’t intending to re-write the bible. What I meant to say, and should have edited, was ‘As it seems obvious that some of us value guns more than people”
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The argument is being made a lot, but I'm not seeing much to back it up. It seems quite common for people to imagine a kind of Die Hard situation in which a civilian with guns saves the day, but in real life this almost never happens. The reality is that when a civilian (or a poorly trained non-civilian) produces a gun their immediate situation becomes even more dangerous for themselves and those around them.
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But if two people start shooting at each other with guns, 'sphere of danger' is a lot wider than two people having a knife fight
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The problem is that, the easier you make it for your average citizen to get hold of a gun, the easier you make it for criminals: surely knowing how easy it is to purchase a firearm in the states must influence your assumption of what criminals would be armed with?
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Actually, there's a distance in which guns don't 'trump' knives, as shown by many police stats based on actual encounters where a gun equipped police man/woman has been fatally injured by a knife assailent- that critical distance is much larger than you'd suppose.
That's not to say that the knife person wins- there's a good chance that both will be seriously hurt/killed.
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My understanding is that Kalashnakov-47's are legal to buy in the US, and they include an automatic function. Is this correct?
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Also, what is the state of the law on semi-automatics and the auto-reloading pistols (I don't know the proper term, I'm afraid)?
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: faithinfire
jeff: I'm not ignoring anything...just because you do not see a reason as being valid, does not negate them for the whole discussion...it just means you have a difference of opinion
Written by: Lurch
Not true, where are your facts on that? If you'd read back you would have seen this by me
"Florida State Uni did whats usually considered one of the larges studies, and found over 2,400,000 defensive gun uses per year. Polls show that in ~98% of the cases displaying the weapon was enough to stop the attack. Also that 1 in 6 believed that their intervention prevented a loss of life, meaning an estimated 400,000+ lives saved."
If you still don't believe that, the FBI Uniform Crime Report, states that firearms are used three to five times more often to stop crimes than to commit them. Furthermore 58% of firearm related deaths are suicide, which isn't going to be stopped by removing the gun.
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* 16,750 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 11,624 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 649 unintentional shootings,
* 311 from legal intervention and
* 235 from undetermined intent (4% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
Written by: Lurch
Display of a handgun does not escelate the situation, if you draw your weapon, the situation is already at a life threatening level. You should be drawing your gun to shoot, not to threaten. If the threat stops when they see your firearm, then you don't shoot. If they continue with whatever you're doing after you warn them/present then you shoot them. It's as simple as that. There is no Die Hard, there is no Rambo, there is no running and diving and backflipping your way to safety.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Written by: Lurch
Guns *are* a protective device.
"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"
*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*
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See, you see yourself (Lurch) logically and calmly saving the day. The problem is that reality what we have is panicky, drunken, angry etc. people making mistakes in stressful situations or killing neighbours or spouses in petty squabbles. You see an idealized situation in all encounters, but that simply isn't what happens.
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Furthermore 58% of firearm related deaths are suicide, which isn't going to be stopped by removing the gun.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: faithinfire
jeff: anecdotal evidence does not count. statistical evidence does not count...apparently nothing counts. Fine, these wouldn't stand up in a "serious" debate, but we are having a discussion. And sorry, I've competed at various levels of debate. Anecdotal evidence is fine. Lurch's statistics are more than fine. Once again because you don't agree does not negate valid points.
Written by: Lurch
That survey was about firearm related deaths, in homes, in one county (there are 3077 counties in the US). Does that sound like a fair sampling for an entire nation? Sure doesn't to me. Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay even warned that the survey failed to consider protective uses of firearms that did not result in the criminals being killed.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: sparkey
I think that my problem with situations like this is that I have too good a sense of perspective. Thirty some people were shot and killed. That sucks. How many thousands of people died in car accidents and from terminal illnesses that same day? Were their deaths any less terrible? "The death of one is a tragedy, but the death of millions is merely a statistic"
Written by: PsyRush
So you have two options:
1. Ban guns, and save a couple of people here and there
2. Work out why so many Americans have mental problems, and fix it, saving tens of thousands of lives per year and positively affecting millions of people.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: Stone
The experience in Australia was that when guns were locked away, youth suicide dropped significantly. No guns, no suicide. Ditto for domestic crime.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
LURCH (and others): would you be so kind to back up your statistics! and quotes!
It's not that hard guys... Use the URL button, please - its there for a good reason and makes things really easy. Otherwise I can only recommend to ignore the claims
Written by: PsyRush
Also do you think that locking guns away cured their depression? I doubt it
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
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We'll consider your first question. You said it rhetorically, failing to take into considereration the obvious comment. Was it not representative? Is the rate of gun violence in this county much different from the rest of the US? If it isn't, then your entire criticism pretty much falls flat on it's face.
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Also, let's consider your claim of 400 000+ lives saved by guns. The number of homocides in the US was about 16 000 a year last time I checked. Are you seriously suggesting that a tidal wave of murder that would kill a considerable chunk of America's population each year is being held back by gun ownership? 400 000+ . I mean, really, do you not see any problem with these numbers?
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But far the most important piece of data there is:
"# after adjusting for other factors (such as a police-report history of violence in the home, a convicted felon in the home, drug or alcohol abuse in the home, race, etc.) there remained an independent 2.7 times increase in risk of homicide, specifically associated with a firearm in the home; this risk was not attributable to any particular "high risk" subgroup(s) identifiable by the above factors but was evident to some degree in all subgroups
# this risk was essentially entirely attributable to being shot by a family member or intimate acquaintance with a handgun which was kept loaded and unlocked in the house"
Which cast serious doubt on the already highly dubious claim that guns are "protective".
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LURCH (and others): would you be so kind to back up your statistics! and quotes!
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Written by: faithinfire
.....Trust me, if they want to commit suicide they will find a way
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
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Kellermann states that as an emergency room doctor, he noted that the number of gunowners injured by their own gun or that of a family member seemed to greatly outnumber the number of intruders shot by the gun of a homeowner, and therefore he determined to study whether or not this was in fact true.
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Can u reference this plz? Also do you think that locking guns away cured their depression? I doubt it
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Trust me, if they want to commit suicide they will find a way.
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So, IMO, I would expect potentially suicidal people with ready access to guns, to be somewhat more likely to end their lives.”
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: faithinfire
Jeff: *sigh* you do not seem to join discussion to discuss, you join to win. And it is fustrating because if you don't like something you say that it cannot be used. You said that I could not use anecdotal evidence in a debate, and then I said I could and have, but suddenly a debate is a pointless exercise.
Written by: Lurch
Wait WHAT?!? I sorry but most of my faith in your logic just flew out the window. You want to argue for accurate statistics, how could you POSSIBLY imagine that a sample of ONE from 3077 could be accurate in any sense of the word? There were no homicides in my county last year, I guess there weren't any in the whole country! Hooray us.
If you want to be a stickler for details you should do it all the way around, not just on other peoples arguments.
Written by: Lurch
Thats nice, you fight for accurate statistics and facts and your source wikipedia?
Written by: Lurch
You're also completely ignoring the information that I brought up to you about flaws in Kellermanns research. He *is* conveniently leaving out important information by refusing to factor in the hundreds of cases that did not result in a death. Looking at deaths only is extremely shortsighted IMO, and appears that a bit of political bias is mixing in with the science, which is never a good combination for those arguing for good statistics.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Written by: Lurch
There were no homicides in my county last year, I guess there weren't any in the whole country! Hooray us.
If you want to be a stickler for details you should do it all the way around, not just on other peoples arguments.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
the best smiles are the ones you lead to