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Posted:eek eek eek eek eek eek

Tragic Loss of Life

This [censored] really saddens me. My thoughts go out to the victims, survivors and all their families.


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Oh sweet jeebuz I was having a little fun with that one. Come on..

I was trying to say that there are *far* more serious problems and causes of accidental deaths than guns. That goes back to my point that if there were no crime, and we lived in a utopia state, why would you care if I owned a gun or not? I'm obviously not going to commit a crime with it


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Lurch

I was trying to say that there are *far* more serious problems and causes of accidental deaths than guns. That goes back to my point that if there were no crime, and we lived in a utopia state, why would you care if I owned a gun or not? I'm obviously not going to commit a crime with it


Yes, there are more serious causes, that's why I want to try and minimize those deaths as well. It still doesn't have any impact on our discussion.

I'm perfectly happy that you will probably never use a gun poorly. But the statistics are clear, you are not the problem. It's jilted lovers, slighted neighbors and depressed children that are pulling the trigger. The presence of a gun gives them that opportunity. Even if you personally keep a gun inside three safes, most people don't and it is from those "most people" that the mortalities are coming.

Those people die in stupid and avoidable ways, but the fact remains that less of them would have died if the gun had not been present. They might represent faceless statistics, a faction of a percentage increase in death rate, but I put more value on that than your belief in gun ownership. Perhaps if everyone was a responsible as you, then gun control wouldn't be necessary. But they aren't, and they never will be.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:sagetree, I agree that it may take a lot of paint brushes to paint all of America, except it would seem until it comes to guns and the Second Amendment.

President Bush does not speak for all Americans, just as Prime Minister Howard does not speak for all Australians. However, I think that as both leaders were voted in by the public, they speak for the majority of people living in each country.

faith, I think trust it something that can be built on. It was good to see that the gaps between state and Federal databases closed. Hopefully, this will help prevent people with psychiatric problems buying guns.

I agree that extremely paranoid people like the survivalists should not have gun licences. Its the people in the middle ground that are a worry.

Lurch are you serious?  Written by:

Yes, and the kid deserved to die. I'm sorry, but he gets *NO* pity from me.



That reminds me of something Seung-Hui Cho might have said. Which is said to indicate a lack of ability to process adult emotions.

Why is the US constantly being encouraged to ban guns? From The Canadian Globe and Mail, "If the frequency of mass shootings is uniquely American, it's also uniquely American to label 220 school shootings in six years as rare."(Wiki, Virginia Tech massacre)

The bottom line is that until there is a real change in the American pro gun culture, then killings and periodic massacres will remain a part of American life.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:a) Stone: you're mixing up: "majority of people living in that country" vs. "majority of people living in that country who bother to vote"... hug

b) Lurch: and that is exactly the kind of attitude (of gun lovers) that frightens me. eek

Who are you to decide who "deserves to die"? To assume the best of all, I guess you're making that statement exclusively from the informations you drew out of mentioned articles... neglecting that the gun in his hand might just have been "planted" there, after he got shot... umm

You know in my country, kids do/ did something that can be translated as "backyard jumping" - meaning that they jump over fences and climb walls from backyard to backyard... I did that as a kid and it was lots of (admittedly weird) fun. If there would have been ONE paranoid censored either me, or one of my mates would not be alive today.

The way in which the article was written is worse than any piece of trivia I have ever had to read. censored heroic cowscrap about one poor kid gettn' shot... and you say he "deserved" to die... wow... I guess you must have know him very well, huh?... frown shrug that makes me just cry and (re-)confirms that even the gun in YOUR hand is potentially...

*strolls off with head low to catch his boat* ubbcrying


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:"Deserved" is probably too harsh a word to use. But *he* is the one who initiated the confrontation. He is the one who brought deadly force into the situation. He created a 'you or me' situation, and he lost. Why would you think he deserves any better? Would you have been happier if an innocent citizen was gunned down for a couple bucks, or fought back and put a criminal in his place? It's not vigilantism.

Backyard jumping is *far* different from armed robbery. As I've said before a valid self defense situation must include the ability, the opportunity, and the intent to cause someone grievous bodily harm, or death. Why are people jumping to defense of the criminals? He was not innocent, he did something wrong, and paid with his life. It's not a tragedy. It sucks that things went that way, but it was his choice. 15 years old should be old enough to know better.


220 school shootings in 6 years? That is probably one of the common 'anti gun' stats thrown out that people like the Brady Campaign love to submit. Too bad it doesn't actually mean anything, as they count anything and everything they can as a school shooting, regardless of if it occurs during school, or even involves anyone that goes to that school, hell it doesn't even have to happen AT the school and they call them school shootings. Look at http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/school_violence04-05.html They list 24 "school shootings" in the 2004-2005 school year They're all sad, but really theres only a couple that I would really consider a 'school shooting.' There is definitely some stat twisting when you start counting things like a 32 year old shot in a school parking lot at 10 at night as a school shooting.



According to the FBI (here I'll even source it for you FireTom: http://www.fbi.gov/publications/school/school2.pdf ) "Adolescent violence in general, and homicides in particular, have decreased since l993, but that hopeful trend has been somewhat obscured in the nationwide wave of concern over school shootings"

Also from the FBI on school violence ( http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/schoolviolence.pdf ). from 2000-2004 there were 27 violent crimes falling under 'murder and non-negligent manslaughter' also stating that gun violence accounts for less than 3% of school violence (including universities). 68,308 violent offenses in four years, 27 ended a life. Thats a far cry from 220 ubbloco


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, owning and using a weapon requires much responsibility. In a situation, like a self defense killing. Then Id say its really up to the judicial system to decide if a person is innocent or guilty, of murder or manslaughter.

So if as you say, only a couple of the 220 people killed in American school shootings in the last six years actually died, what happend to the rest? Did they miraculously wake up and find themselves not dead?

Im out of here, but the bottom line remains the same. Until there is a real change in the American pro gun culture, then killings and periodic massacres will remain a growing part of American life.

To finish up, Id like to quote the 35th President of the United States of America from his inaugural address: Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." In the speech, John Fitzgerald Kennedy also asked the nations of the world to unite and fight the common enemies of man - tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself. You know the rest of the story.


wave


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Lurch

"Deserved" is probably too harsh a word to use. But *he* is the one who initiated the confrontation. He is the one who brought deadly force into the situation. He created a 'you or me' situation, and he lost. Why would you think he deserves any better? Would you have been happier if an innocent citizen was gunned down for a couple bucks, or fought back and put a criminal in his place? It's not vigilantism.


Firstly, your attitude to this is troubling. Everyone deserves better than death. You don't know his life, or the social pressures he was under. Had you lived his life, you might have done the same. If his death was unavoidable (as it very well may have been), then that's a tradgedy, and one that could have been avoidable if he himself had not been able to gain possession of a gun.

I accept that there will be situations where the possession of a gun can be use to save a life, and this may have been one of them. The trouble is that the number of situations where this occurs is small compared to the number of times when they result in a needless death.

Look at the US murder rate, and the proportion of those that involve guns. Would the murder rate really increase if US gun laws were the same as British?


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Lurch

"Deserved" is probably too harsh a word to use. But *he* is the one who initiated the confrontation. He is the one who brought deadly force into the situation. He created a 'you or me' situation, and he lost. Why would you think he deserves any better? Would you have been happier if an innocent citizen was gunned down for a couple bucks, or fought back and put a criminal in his place? It's not vigilantism.



Whilst I've argued against some of Lurch's pro-gun attitude, I've got to say that I pretty much agree with his stance on this.

Muggers who target innocent people going about their business and bring uninvited violence into their lives deserve, IMO, any consequences that follow from those victims exercising a reasonable level of self-defence, up to and including death.

 Written by: jeff(fake)


Firstly, your attitude to this is troubling. Everyone deserves better than death. You don't know his life, or the social pressures he was under. Had you lived his life, you might have done the same.




I'd go further than that, if I'd lived the exact same life as him, then, by definition, i would have done the same (having been subject to the same abusive experiences that made him capable of putting the lives of others at risk for small sums of money).

And, just like him, I'd have deserved to be subject to the consequnces of my intended victims self-defense.

I've never believed 'bad' people are just born bad- they're the result of their ubringing and environment.

However, when one of them is pointing a gun at an innocent victim and putting their lives at risk, that victim is totally entitled to do what is necessary to ensure their survival, IMO.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yep..the 15 year old initiated an armed conflict, and unfortunately for all parties concerned it didn't end the way he'd hoped.

I wonder if Muslim countries have the same sort of discussions about the evils of legally allowing the consumption of alcohol. After all, we're all familiar with the social costs of booze and I for one could see someone in a "dry" society wondering why we allow this stuff. How many suicides are facilitated with booze ? How many accidents ? How many assaults, cases of spousal abuse, acts of stupidity can be directly attributed to the availability of alcohol ?

Anyways

About those pink guns.....


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Thanks OWD, I'm glad I'm not completely alone on this one beerchug



 Written by: ]So if as you say, only a couple of the 220 people killed in American school shootings in the last six years actually died, what happend to the rest? Did they miraculously wake up and find themselves not dead?[/quote





First off lets examine this 220 stat a little more closely. As I was trying to say before, people are sensationalizing school shootings, and putting anything and everything they can into the category to up the number and make it look worse than it actually is. The "220" that you state actually comes from a CDC and PDVP study done from 1994 to 1999. It includes all violent deaths on campus. While the victim was on their way to or from school, attending, or traveling to or from a school event. That means that if a hobo was shot by another hobo, at 4 in the morning, and they happened to be on school property, it's counted as a school shooting. If a pregnant woman dies, it's counted as two deaths. If a violent criminal is shot by police on school property, it's counted as a school shooting. Suicides on school property are school shootings.. Do you see a problem here? Of the 220, 202 of those involved a single death. Hardly a school rampage killing.



If you pull out all the crap numbers, and focus on what should *truly* be considered school shootings (current students and multiple victims) and it cuts the number to 19 offenders, 12 shootings. If you look at the US Secret Service's National Threat Assessment Center, they identified 37 targeted school shootings, with 41 attackers between 1974 and 2000. Including incidents where only one victim was targeted. "Tageted shootings" meaning the assailants were current or recent students, and they chose the school "for a particular purpose, and not simply as a site of opportunity." Thereby excluding shootings related to drugs, gangs, or interpersonal disputes that had nothing to do with school.



All that info can be found in Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings (google preview here: http://books.google.com/books?id=c0rx6G1...RQ4kgdsnXE-tm48 )



Is homicide a problem? Yes, a large problem. Are these "School shootings" the main reason? Not on your life, less than 1% of homicides and suicides of school aged children (5-18 years old) were school associated, even by the twisted logic that the CDC used to define "school related". It comes down to education. Both by the government (schools) and by the parents. Education and respect are what hold communities together, there is a reason violent deaths of urban students is double that of rural. And don't tell me it's because of the guns, farm kids have far more access, and practice with guns than any city kid will ever have, but they have the knowledge respect that goes along with it.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:The covereage is trickling down

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070507/ap_o...YOL.3PdHhum1OFF

So its not even that he should not had a gun because he had been put under observation. He should have been tracked down to complete his treatment. The mental health field is so overwhelmed that it cannot keep up with the demand. There should have been a follow up and this tragedy may have been prevented.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070506/ap_o...Fp9mdJ2AeVH2ocA

Just a bit more information about the shooting


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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