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Forums > Social Discussion > Copy(rights) in (fire)toy manufacturing

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks for taking the time reading this and maybe even giving a reply.... hug smile



I'm kind-a heavy headed on this at the moment... frown



I was asking somebody, who is making and selling firefans - design taken (with approval) from a famous US-american (fire) artist - okay, so I was asking for wholesale conditions... again and again.



It is now, 4 month after my first (personal) inquiry to him and his partner - in which I got no response whatsoever - that I lost the nerve and decided to make my own...



But a firefan is a firefan, there are little options one has got in oder to make a difference - much like a Poi is a Poi, or a firesword is a firesword... the options, or the range of possbilities to change their design are little.... not to speak of (collapsible) firehoops...



I violently dislike (Xerox)copying somebody elses (intellectual) work, I sat down and re-designed (and was even able to improve it - as some say)... umm



Personally I do not have a problem in someone copying MY designs, as long as it's not for commercial use (selling, or equipping the entire "community" at "friendship-rates") and I do apply the same criteria to what I come across.



But I am not the Omega in this, so:



What do you think about "intellectual property" - nope, no poll on this -



- under which conditions is it "okay to copy"?



- as of when is it a "new design"?



- would you (knowingly) buy copies?



- whaddaya think of ppl who just (knowingly) copy, or (knowingly) buy copies?



- how would you avoid getting copied (yourself)?



I mean, how should one "protect" his design, i.e. make ppl aware, that THIS is the original and everybody else, making copies, makes copies and everybody buying copies is simply buying copies....


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted: Written by:

Under which conditions is it "okay to copy"?





Under your own rights and rights of people work

you are using.



 Written by:

as of when is it a "new design"?







As it's not a plain copy.



 Written by:

Would you (knowingly) buy copies?





People doing it every day, but one can counter

how decide what aim to be an original.



 Written by:

Whaddaya think of ppl who just (knowingly) copy, or (knowingly) buy copies?





People copy because they loosing treir own

perspective, thus formed by masses. But I'd

like to hear social determination in here.



 Written by:

how would you avoid getting copied (yourself)?





There is less possibility to happen, because

we are original one by one or we think that we

are such people.



Copyright - Let you teel people, your work's yours.



Creative Common Copyright - Let you teel people, either you allow to copy or to sell or to share.



General public license - Let you teel people, you allow to use.



Open source - Let you teel people, your work's for free.



lightning,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:hmmm, thanks for that input.

"Social determination"? confused what you mean by that in that context?

It's kind-a funny thinking about the entire thing itself, as many of us do copy music and wear counterfeit designwear (including myself).... the entire copyright-thingy and intellectual property rights is an interesting topic...

Malcolm himself had some experience lately and I do well remember my own position on this. Which hasn't changed much.

There is a fine line between lawful and ethical, I reckon - hmm, can't find the thread anymore, seems as if it got deleted.... shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:As you say - with something likes fire-fans, there's a certain amount which you can't really change.
If you copied something which made a particular style stand out - e.g. spider-web effect on the cross parts, alternating long/short spokes etc - then it becomes more of a grey area.

But if it's a one-off version, then as long as you generally describe it as "I really liked X's design, so I played with it a bit" and credit it, I don't think it's a problem...

Take a fire-staff. If you play with someones staff and you really like the way it handles, I don't think there's anything wrong with making a similar version. Again, you should credit the original when possible, but a stick with wicks can only come in a limited amount of versions.

Another more recent example would be K8 staffs - which are really similar in look and feel to Aerotech Pros. But there are infact several differences, the way you change them lights, charging style, handle and end design.
They're substantially cheaper than 'Techs, but the build quality isn't at a 'Tech level, and you don't get quite so much choice.
But in fairness to K8, there's only so many ways you can design a full-length glow staff and a certain amount of strobing patterns (some of which are unique to K8s).
This is now slightly redundant as Aerotech have stopped making the Pros, and the Ultimates are very different to K8s.

Waffle waffle waffle wink

Specific answers, with regards to fire props:


- under which conditions is it "okay to copy"?
Unless it's something truly unique (FireFans aren't unique - unless they're really different), as long as you give credit to the inspiration when discussing them,any time.

- as of when is it a "new design"?
When it's truly something new or un-tried before. e.g. Firetoys FibreGlass Staff I'd say is a new design. Though I'm probably wrong on this precise example wink

- would you (knowingly) buy copies?
I'd judge each case on it's merits. If it was a blatant copy, for the same price - no. If it was a cheaper version, which wasn't as good perhaps but looked the part, and was acknowledged as a copy - yes. (Go me, all looks and no substance wink ). Likewise, if a "copy" was better than the orginal, yes.

- whaddaya think of ppl who just (knowingly) copy, or (knowingly) buy copies?
For purely commercial gain and out of laziness - Bad
For economical and artistic reasons - fine smile

- how would you avoid getting copied (yourself)?
I don't think I'd really care... I've had people ask about my poi a surprising amount of times - I just tell them I got them from Hyperloop (.co.uk wink ), where they make poi to your exact specs, mine are blah-blah-blah, but you can change all that yourself.
I wouldn't proactively make an effort to not have designs copied (Not that many people copy my fire props... I seldom make my own, and the ones I do tend to be "That'll do" jobs)

smile

I honestly can't think of anyone off the top of my head who makes fire-props and who closely guards the way they make them.
Actually, I have just though of one. Strugz's method of wicking staffs with rope. On hear-say, I gather Firetoys where "very interested" in his sticks, and - quite rightly - Strugz didn't give away the technique. But they were quite blatantly looking at them with a view to mass-producing them, without give Strugz credit/money. But then again, this is an example of a unique design which Strugz came up with himself....

Gosh, that was both long, and indecisive.


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
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strugz
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly...

Total posts: 3964
Posted: Written by: Durbs


But then again, this is an example of a unique design which Strugz came up with himself....




Well, kinda - i was taught macrame by one of those irish wink i then figured that would lend itself to wicking nicely. I was at the bjc with my new sticks and the FT guys wanted me to show thm how to do it as they wanted it for thier new fibreglass stick.

Without sounding to blunt, i pretended to try and show thm the knotting, but it was a hot day and i got confused and convieniently forgot how to do it wink

ubblol

I will show anyone person how to wick it without any hesitation, however not to someone thats tying to soley trying to mass produce.

tough one to police wither way, in the end all ideas become eveyones anyway......... smile

ubbrollsmile


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Well, "to copy" can be seen from two points of view.



1] Replication



Like t-shirt that I have and many other people.



2] "Reproduction"



Richee - Horizontal hyperloop

Danae - Horizontal hyperloop



You may see the slight diffrence. The social

determination, meen your personality is de-

termined by people you're in contact with,

for example fire spiningr clothing. That is

close to cultural life as well.



The second one is diffrent inna way that

you think is reproduced by another person,

but in a diffrent manner.





What about patenting?



lightning,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London

Total posts: 151
Posted:I don't think there can be any copyright or even ethical issues involved, even if the design is copied exactly. This would be similar to say copying a plain white t-shirt. Plain white t-shirts that look exactly the same are manufactured by numerous manufacturers and there's nothing illegal about that. It would be the same with jeans, different manufacturers, but they look exactly the same. To the best of my knowledge jeans cannot be copy protected, only brands and logos can.

So unless you start stamping your home made poi with 'www.homeofpoi.com', there's no copyright infringement involved, even if they use the same ball chain and kevlar!


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted: Written by: strugz


Without sounding to blunt, i pretended to try and show thm the knotting, but it was a hot day and i got confused and convieniently forgot how to do it wink





ubblol ubblol ubblol

Good good...

x


Getting to the other side smile

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Puts Strugz down for a macrame workshop at Spunout 08.
wink


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Shyeah, like he was pretending...

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Protect designs



I do this professionally:

For things, I'd recommend you try design registration.

Then for a couple of hundred a year you buy insurance against someone copying you.

the insurance covers legal fees up to 15 grand.

Perfect for small scale design makers.



Copyright - for music, choreography, written and artwork

e.g. There was a problem with Flaming Funky Fire Monkey Ltd (poipoi. info) copying a lot of the poi book and posting it on their website. Copyright dealt with that (him).



Patent - forget it - you haven't got 50 grand and even if you have, fire products will never make it back.

Probably irrelevant anyway for most toys. biggrin



(edited 20/11/07 to clarify name of shop)

EDITED_BY: Glss (1195553958)


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Drew... we were talking about this at the weekend...



And I'm sure this was mentioned somewhere a few years ago...



But, if you write down your act, in detail, take pics of it, then put it all in a sealed envelope and send it to yourself... thereby getting it dated and stamped... and don't open the envelope...



Surely this is copyrighting the idea?



Would this work?



x

EDITED_BY: _Clare_ (1175542756)


Getting to the other side smile

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:That is what my xhusband used to do with new music... it was a way of making a legal representation of date should it ever get to court and need verification.

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:The recorded envelop thing is not 100% secure.
recommend video rather than writing down.


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:eh - I dont understand how people can get uppitty about someone 'copying' their designs with things as simple as fixed fans or fire staffs. Its not like it hasn't all been done before. I'd understand it if it were a truly new thing like.. (err a fire toy thats truly new that I cant think of right now tongue). Fire fans have been around for donkey's years - anyone that claims they have designed the first unique prototype needs to get their head out of the clouds (IMHO).

just like saying oohh! I invented the three beat weave!! no one is allowed to do it!!


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Erm... yes, actually...

I did invent the three beat weave...

I hope you're not trying to copy it?!!!!

umm umm

devil


Getting to the other side smile

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:eh - 3 beat weave is too technical for me anyhow. You can keep your high faluting academic poi moves wink

I mean I could understand it if the Concentrate guy got annoyed because someone was marketing a fire staff with a very similar locking mechanism - as I think the Concentrate locking mechanism and handle design is an extremely innovative design, and one that makes their staffs different from all the others on the market.


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:ubblol

Getting to the other side smile

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Wow - thanks heeps for your input...

What can be considered to be a "differing" design, or an "advanced alteration", that makes a new product "new" and "unique"?

What can one claim to have "invented" anyways, to be a pure-bred offspring of his very own mind (in the face of the hundredth-monky-syndrome anyways).

However, the base of all this is:


Non-Https Image Link


(original design with extremely distracting background wink ) and here without, made by Lata and Danny (under "licence" - notice the very brief and subtle changes on the handle)


Non-Https Image Link


I was ready to just Xerox that design out of necessity/ frustration and just pay royalty (which would be my very own condition to accept designs to be copied for commercial purpose by anyone)... but decided to dive into the technical requirements myself... As soon as my FlickR account is reactivated, I will show you what I mean.

Siding the statement about the "Concentrate" design - innovative and unique and - if copied - really annoying for them guys. Unfortunately there are rules and regulations for copyright and "how to protect your own design" - I'm afraid that envelope thing doesn't work, video-taping and even putting a picture along with a detailled description up onto the triple-w, with date and exact description might not get accepted, when the oyster meets a japanese trawler...

As a matter of fact, if you put the stuff up into the net, you may not be permitted to copyright the design or manufacturing process anymore, because it's "current, common knowledge" as of that particular date.

It (again) is up to the community and each individual(s choice) to get her/ himself informed about what they buy where... (ain't that a new twist? "Plagiate - your fellow (firetoy)designer has to buy bread, too" ubblol wink )

Does one create (unnecessary) harm by buying counterfeits/ copies? or is the harm created necessary?

footinmouth [sic] sometimes my mind is just tiring me ubblol wink I can understand anyone ignoring my posts rolleyes ubblol ubblol


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK

Total posts: 2895
Posted:*cough*

taken from http://www.legal-definitions.com/interne...CFQ-Wbgod2n3IjQ

'Works put on the Internet are considered published and therefore qualify for copyright protection. A work put on the Internet is not considered public domain simply because it was posted on the Internet and free for anyone to download and copy. You need permission from the site owner to publish any materials, including photographs, music, and artwork from the site.

The best way to enforce Internet copyright is through the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 is designed primarily to limit the liability of Internet service providers for acts of copyright infringement by customers who are using the providers' systems or networks. The DMCA was enacted both to preserve copyright enforcement on the Internet and to provide immunity to service providers from copyright infringement liability for passive, automatic actions in which a service provider's system engages through a technological process initiated by another without the knowledge of the service provider.

To protect your rights under the DMCA, you should write a DMCA letter to the infringing persons Internet Service Provider and the major search engines, such as google.'

Thought this rang a bell from a course I did on web design...

So basically, stuff on the net is copyrighted, but its up to YOU to make sure no one else uses it


Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Lazy Angel *bless you* thanks for putting the text and link, but this is something different. Whilst pictures and text are copyrighted, when published (on websites), other content might not.

If one publishes a text about beginners moves, it might be copyrighted - or it definately is (as you pointed out).

If one publishes - for say - an innovative and new procedure of "how to make a firefan" here on HoP and then later try to have that procedure and design patented, it might fail, as the procedure is then "common knowledge" already (and neither HoP, nor I would hold a copyright, just because of the fact it was already published)... that's as I understand it...

But your informations might be more up to date... are "intellectual property rights" a subject in your current location? wink *coughs*


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK

Total posts: 2895
Posted:I would have thought that if you publish a way to make a firetoy online, that would actually mean that you would have a definite case for protecting your copyright:

i.e you could say, 'look at this post in March 2003, I explain how to make a fire umbrella, then in July 2005 Flamey Toyz inc. started mass producing them.'

My thought would be that by publishing it, you would be saying the equivalent of 'for home distribution only'. Particularly you may have a case if the said design was being sold by your company, and the other company was undercutting you due to their larger sphere of influence and profits (monopolising the market) hence causing loss of earnings to your good self.

however, after looking at http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p15_design_rights I think it depends on when you actually start to market the design. It seems you automatically get three years design rights, after you start selling a fixed design, 10 years in the uk, but you can but the rights to your own design.

when it comes down to it, anything you type, even in an email, is subject to copyright.

intellectual property rights in China: hmmmm, that's an interesting one! As far as I can see from the one factory I went to visit, designs are carried out by a teacher, who then teaches the workers what how to fulfill each of their roles. Still, I'll see what I can find out for you....


Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: Glss


Protect designs

I do this professionally:



And what do you think about publishing (on the net) and gaining copyrights this way? umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:You automatically have a copyright whenever you create a piece of work. It's yours no matter what, you just can't really bring any legal action or sue for damages if someone steals it unless you've gone through the registration process.

I'm not sure that a copyright would really be what you want anyways. There really are only so many ways you can make a fire fan, and since you're not too far from the norm I would say you're just fine. Since it's not a direct copy of anything, it's altered, in many different ways. If you did actually take direct influence from something, it's always a kind gesture to say the source. As an artist I would appreciate it if someone used strong influence from one of my pieces to make something similar.

If you did something special like making a modular fire fan that you can change the number of fins on than it would certainly be something worth pursuing more


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Fire tom

You can't copyright objects!
publishing their design drawing online would mean that everyone had the design drawings, and at best *the drawings* would be copyrighted, not the design itself!

Also according to this, it seems like the formal systems for electronic/online publishing are yet to fully catch up with paper.
http://www.bl.uk/about/policies/legaldeposit.html

Look up: "Design registration"
But ultimately you haven't got a lot of IP to defend here, your fans are very similar to everyone elses.

Copyright/patents/etc in china go like this:
"it makes money so the we copy it"


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks for that guys smile

As stated: Fans are fans, like swords and poi they are hard to re-invent.

Just as a precaution: I have not yet published a picture of my modifications help rolleyes ubblol however nothing I'd call "revolutionary".

But in essence one would have to go through the registration process and pay all kinds of money in order to have "minimal" protection (if someone re-designs it and makes certain changes, it's a new design anyways) - that (web)publishing alone doesn't work.

Let's - for say - take the "Kiwi-doo" design (whoever would want to copy that): it's kind-of unique and people would recognise the brand from the design. There is another version of poi out there, which got copied hundred times...

I mean let's not talk about "templeofpoi.commies" and their products, but for say this one:


Non-Https Image Link


If I remember correctly, the first one who did this particular design was a woman from Pune (couple of years back ). Now you see it anywhere.

But I reckon that's also a good indication: Once you get copied, you know you did something really good. shrug meditate


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Original handle design

My development

Whaddaya think?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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kash
GOLD Member since May 2006

kash

Dangerous cynic


Total posts: 166
Posted:Looks pretty cool, I'd have to agree with not revolutionary (except in that they make circles) as the multi circle has been done a fair bit.
Check a few fans down: http://www.firewhip.com/fans.html
or http://www.firetoys.co.uk/juggling/fire_fans_blade.html

These are very similar:
http://www.firetoys.co.uk/juggling/fire_fans_poison.html

And the 2nd one down here just takes the piss http://www.firetoys.co.uk/juggling/pyro_pixies_fire_fans.html


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:kash, Pyropixies did copy the original (with permission) and I took it from there.

Thanks for posting these links - I see that generally these fans are considerably different.

Anyone got experience with these fans? I was pondering to do this the same way (loops at the bottom) but considered them (with only a loop on the bottom of the handle) as uncomfy for playing. offtopic

It seems as mine is a hybrid (well sort of) and I'm pretty safe, no?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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