Forums > Social Discussion > technical vs dance vs performance in routine building

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mcp
mcp

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Posted:(this in no way refers to busking. I mean routines in terms of stage routines / multiple person routines.)

Tech vs Dance vs Performance.

I don't see why a techy performance only appeals to a techy audience in some peoples minds. (this is not your minds, just some peoples. sometimes. perhaps my mind too. who knows. it's not directed is what I'm saying.)

Sure if you spin standing still, with no character and no facial expressions just doing techy move after techy move, linked up badly, yeah the only people that would stand to watch that would be a techy audience. (though I don't think you could really call it a performance, more like a demonstration.)

I definately think you can have an exceedingly technical routine, with and without standard 'crowd pleasing' moves that appeals to a lay audience and a techy audience that knows what you're doing.

And if you don't, you're not making your routines right.

Maybe a lay audience can't tell the difference between a 3 and 5 beat weave perhaps, but they're all human, and they have excellent pattern recognition skills built in, they can tell the difference between anti-spin isolated buzzsaw fountain and a butterfly buzzsaw. And if they can't tell the difference between a flower and an anti-spun flower, you just have to make you routine better so they do, like yuta does, when he speeds up as soon as he starts the anti-spun flower, so the audience gets the speed thrill and the pattern is more clear to them.

Yes I'm motivated to make technical routines because I want to use difficult skills in my routine. But I also want to make a beautiful routine also, and one that builds to a climax and all those other things that make a good routine. Character story etc... I also want to trick people into thinking I'm amazing at what i do.

I mean like yeah sure, people will watch for a little while if you're spinning fire around, and that's got their attention, and you might lose it again and never know, cos out of waiting for the next act / nothing better to do, they keep watching. But you can keep it in highly technical ways, like: did he just throw those poi from behind his back? or how come they just stalled upwards like that? I thought they were chains... Did they just get magically shorter? Did they just go through his arms? etc. (this is only a basic idea, I've seen some highly technical character work that uses a very different mindset.)

And will all of that you can add in body movement / dance / expressions and character to keep them entertained.

Like one of 'jam's' (British troupe) moves: Where one poi goes between the legs and then the leg comes over and the poi is free again. They do it as a balletic move, with a sly grin at the audience that is supposed to say (and I quote) "It's naughty but I kinda liked it" Other people do it with martial art kicks, or as jumps and so on. Most moves, techy or not, crowdpleasing or not, can be adapted to make them what you need them to be in your routine.

We've all learnt these hard skills, if would be a shame if we skimpted on the learning to use them in a routine part also.

Yeah that is kinda where I'm coming from, I don't particularly want to have to make a good routine without the tech bits, those skills I spent years working on. But there's also stuff I couldn't put into a routine if I hadn't spent the time on them. Maybe if I wore a skirt and just flounced around a bit I could be a good performer, but I'd rather try and make something that I could respect as well as entertain with.

Just combine them alllllllll!

This is just some unfinished thoughts. So if you disagree tell me, or tell me other examples / counter examples. I wanna know.

sorry it's a bit ranty.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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strugz
strugz

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Posted: Written by: mcp


Maybe if I wore a skirt and just flounced around a bit I could be a good performer,



That id pay money to see wink ubblol

Comic relief or something maybe biggrin

M8 - i see just what your saying in general, putting those little posey querks in along with face pulling etc, simple and basic as it maybe will really enhance any trick you do, be it super technical or "easy".

I think technical staff is harder to apply this to purely from a difficulty level, more than anything else. Simple figre 8s with stalls for example you can put in stances and cheesy moments to enhance thier appeal....... turning halo/jesus or dual fishtails, for exaple requires the body to be doing something alot more difficult therfore not allowing you to chuck in cheesy moments...... im not saying it cant be done im just saying it will take much more time. although they do say that the more time you put in the better the result........ biggrin

Either way when it does get to that level it will be the best stick(s) routine ever smile

ubbrollsmile


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
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Posted: Written by: strugz


turning halo/jesus or dual fishtails, for example requires the body to be doing something alot more difficult therefore not allowing you to chuck in cheesy moments......



but we're already talking about different arm positions and directions during the jesus... linking those anti-spinning arms into your routine is example the sort that makes technical into dancey... I don't just mean posing poncing and such like, i mean proper pretentious dance too. biggrin

And lets face it, once you can do a jesus well, it doesn't take much longer to do it with weird arm movements to fit your routine.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

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Posted: Written by: mcp


Maybe if I wore a skirt and...




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"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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strugz
strugz

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Posted:True - i think antispun arms makes the move look 100% nicer....

although i wasnt just being specific to that i was using that as an expample. With easy stuff you can dance all around it however......

with techy stuff your governd by what your body is having to do to pull off the move.......

The bits left over to use may only be faces and toe wriggling wink

either way... good post.

Stop whineing biggrin


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

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Posted:Don't forget the sticky-outy-tongue tongue

Also depends on who you're performing for - the so-called lay audience or your fellow spinners. Do you vary your routine for either or do you keep the same routine? Or do you choose to only perform for one or the other?

I remember at BJC during the Young Juggler of the Year comp, the kid (John Pete I think...) pulled off a move that to a non-juggler like me didn't look too impressive but caused the ENTIRE audience to erupt in applause and go absolutely wild...

I would like to give a lay audience more credit and not insult their intelligence. With a tech audience of your peers I wouldn't want to downplay their idea of fun either - meaning I wouldn't as you say just stand their stony-faced reeling off techy-move after techy-move which in my eyes is pure masturbation if all you get from the performer is a feeling of 'I'm considerable better than YOU' - which they are, otherwise they wouldn't be performing...

Being able to engage an audience is a skill in itself, you need to know how to pace the sequence of moves, have something that instills a feeling humility and whether you choose to dance in a way that gives your performance a personality is all up to YOU...!

btw. WIGGLE!


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted: Written by: strugz


I think technical staff is harder to apply this to purely from a difficulty level



Nah, I disagree.

Although it's hard to equate a poi move to staff move (e.g. anti-spin iso flower = a jesus) - personally I think on the whole, contact staff is a lot easier to please an audiance with, purely as they can see the big long staff leave your hand and roll around your body vs. someone moving their arms in a way to make different fire trails.
F'example, a recent gig I did which was quick 2 minute burns to groups of 30 or so people. At first I was switching between poi, ropes and staffs (single and double). Very quickly I just resorted to single staff - despite the fact this is my worst discipline - as I could do halos, jesus' etc and the crowd went "oooooooooooo" as opposed to air-wrapping into poly-rhythm flowers which was generally met with silence. (I then did CJ which obviously kicked both poi and staffs arse wink )

Anyhoo - back on topic...

For me, a "perfect" poi routine should be techy, with lots of body movement, dramatic body postures (especially with stalls) - changes in time, speed height, plane...
There are some poi moves in particular which to a large audiance (i.e a fair distrance away) wouldn't really be worth doing in a fire show - some of the internal moves for example.

In terms of "technical vs dance vs performance " ...
(Pure) Tech' on it's own will never be a "performance" to the non-spinning public (I think you're right, it's more of a demonstration) - there'll be the initial "Ooo that's fire - cool" bit, but after a while it'll get samey.
(Pure) Dance on the other hand can be a performance. Not matter what your views on the matter, someone spinning weaves and dodgy plane corkscrews who moves wll, with the music and spins to the music will always be good to watch to the general public.

The joy of combining tech and dance is you can make your performance better, more interesting (to perform and to watch) and entertain AND dazzle the audiance.

With regards to the "how" - and I'm a long way from being an expert - I think you can take every move you can do, and learn different ways of presenting it. Even something basic like fanning the weave from fwd to bwd, you can stand there and do it, or you can develop posture, attitude and movement to bring the move into a mini-performance on its own, Like you mention with Jam's btl move - you can lift your leg out the way, or you can lift your leg out the way wink


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mcp
mcp

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Posted: Written by: Neon_Shaolin


Also depends on who you're performing for - the so-called lay audience or your fellow spinners. Do you vary your routine for either or do you keep the same routine? Or do you choose to only perform for one or the other?




Noooooooo!

You shouldn't need to change your routine! That's what I'm arguing against! Why do you think it was the 'young' juggler of the year award?

Why is the lay audience so stupid that they can't appreciate difficult things? That's right, they're not. So they do. You might have to present them differently, or think more, but you should do that anyway.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:ditto

A routine should have mass appeal - if it relies too much on techy stuff (to please the fellow spinners/jugglers) you're not moving enough, if it relies too much on movement (to please the non-spinner audiance) you're not doing enough moves smile

A routine should be strong enough on its' own to please everyone who watches it


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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
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Posted:Just a question...

But why is dance always about posing, poncing, pretentiousness and generally wrong/not-understood when you're talking about it?

It's not as if any of the dancer-types have the attitude 'hey, let's learn as many moves as we can to see who can piss the farthest...'

Dancing with this (and actually keeping the planes clean - which is the difference) is as difficult as learning techy moves...

Putting them both together is another thing entirely.

Learn all your techy moves again, from scratch, but this time, do it while moving...
Then, when you've learned them all again, with good planes, you can start thinking about dance.

I'm still relearning the 3-bt weave. Maybe by 2008 I'll have them learned enough, with enough movement, to consider dance.




There you go. A relatively unnice post from me.


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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:I don't think it's case of people saying dance (as you describe above) is un-techy - as you say, the necessary plane control and such like are as much to learn as a rev 9bt weave.

I think the "Tech" in question is the feet rooted to the spot inversed isolated butterfly airwrap with marshmallows and extra shim-sham style.

Also, I would go as far as saying 80% of the people on this board (i.e. everyone but the Australians wink ) dedicate most of their time learning tricks, not movement.

I think part of it comes from the fact that the people doing the performances are of a technical level where they can move between all moves, and move around (physically, not dancey) without needing to constantly watch their planes.

I think you're actually agreeing with Meg overall - learning a move whilst presenting it to an audiance is an entirely new and difficult skill.

smile


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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
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Posted:Oh. Damn.

Oh well.

I shall go and be grumpy elsewhere then.

tongue to you all


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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:Yeah, go and practise your 3bt weave - your timing's waaaaaaaaaaaay off tongue

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

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Posted:AND now try it with a poi in each hand! tongue

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Gayle......!
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Posted: Written by: _Clare_



It's not as if any of the dancer-types have the attitude 'hey, let's learn as many moves as we can to see who can piss the farthest...'




This made me smile. biggrin

I can sorta dance. I can sorta spin. Doing the two together suddenly gets really hard. I am still struggling to put my "dance" head with my "spinning" head, i am finding it hard to merge the two. If i put the poi down i can dance and if i pick them up i can't remember how to dance.....

For me technical vs dance vs performance means that the technical move is put forward artistically with some emotion behind it. I love routines which pop in and out and then merge all three concepts. I love to see someone just dance then maybe break out an awesome move all whilst being engaging (and i don't mean smiling...)

I think the key is, it doesn't matter whether it's techical or dancey or a combination of the two as long as you engage and perform.


Gayle.....!

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
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Posted:Hmpf tongue

I am now going to sulk in a dramatic and flourishy type of way.

This requires practice....


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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:I doubt it - you've done it often enough

wink


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_Clare_
_Clare_

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Posted:Meh... did that really need to be said Durbin?

rolleyes


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mcp
mcp

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Posted:claire like what? What kinda of dance are you talking about? Cos just wiggling isn't dance. If you have the rule that it has to be in time to the music, then ballet isn't dance. If it has to be expressive of a story or emotion, then ballet is. But then normal 'dancing' isn't.

And just cos you don't see it doesn't mean dancers can't get caught up in the techinical side of their art. I've seen plenty of videos of ballet dancers doing as many pirouettes as they can, or the highest jete. It's just they have the background and history of their artform never to do that in a performance.

sorry if I mixed up dance and body movement.

/edit so many fast replies!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
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Posted:Yes, I know that wiggling isn't dance.

Have to go do stuff now... will be back later, when I've thought about this...


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Gayle......!
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Posted: Written by: mcp


If it has to be expressive of a story or emotion, then ballet is. But then normal 'dancing' isn't.



Why not?


Gayle.....!

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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:I was going to mention this...

There's a potential whole debate here as to "Movement vs Dance"...

But with regards to this thread, I think it's a case of neither - it's about presenting moves, using dance & movement - whether this is wiggling during a fountain, moonwalking with an antispin flower, pirouetting on point with a leg in the air doing a jesus roll...


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Gayle......!
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Posted: Written by: _Clare_


Yes, I know that wiggling isn't dance.




Again, why not?


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mcp
mcp

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Posted:well mostly when I'm dancing to old madonna tunes, I'm not attempted to tell the story of suddenly susan to the rest of the dance floor, through the medium of dance. Emotion to some extent yes, but I'm not trying to get them to cry, or understand the plight of a black man wrongly imprisoned for ten years due to racism. (which I have seen.)

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

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Posted:Suddenly Susan? That crappy sitcom with Brooke Shields? I hope not!

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:Wiggling on it's own isn't dance - it's just moving your hips. It can be dance, it can also not be dance.

Breakdancing doesn't tell a story or express an emotion (other than "Yeah, I'm better than you") - but that's still dance.

Anyway - before this drags Meg's surprisingly good topic off topic, I'm going to start another thread smile


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mcp
mcp

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Posted:wasn't it a film?

It's the story of most dance in clubs: "I'm soo sexy" or "Look how sexy I am I wanna get laid" with the occasional "Man I just love dancing!"

but breakdance obeys the other law: It has to be on the beat. Like belly dance doesn't tell a story, but it's very much about expressing the music using your body, like visual jazz.

Anyway, most dance incorporates some element of:

being in time to the music
expressing stuff
moving your body deliberately and sometimes rythmically, and ocassionally making strong shapes with it.

can we settle on that?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted: Written by: mcp


Anyway, most dance incorporates some element of:

being in time to the music
expressing stuff
moving your body deliberately and sometimes rythmically, and ocassionally making strong shapes with it.

can we settle on that?



No - But take it HERE wink


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Neon_Shaolin
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Posted:I think you're thinking of 'Desperately Seeking Susan'... tongue (How gay am I?)

I try not to breakdown the way I dance in clubs. It used to be all about having my footages match or double the bpm of the song. Now that I'm too old and can't keep up like I used to (and into 'the poi' etc) I find myself subconscious thinking of doubles staff or body-popping moves... It's quite unnerving

Lets just say 'MAAAAN I LOVE dancing'


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

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Location: Angel's Landing, USA
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Posted:Another one of these threads? man, and I just thought we'd gone awhile without seeing a techy vs dance thread wink

To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:tongue

This is more a Techy with dance for the sake of performance thread really...


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