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Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


_Poiboy_
_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel
Member Since: 12th Jan 2004
Total posts: 1113
Posted:umm no, i mean reorganize themselves, probably by moving their rocket launchers and weapons into more populated places so people will get killed and then they could blame us.


Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:It saddens me that people are so desensortised now days.

I heard this story that %95 of soldiers in WWII didnt want to kill (its not human nature) and the %5 ordered them.
Makes me wonder how many germans were really nazi's.

If you think that its a similar number of hizbullah (or Israel) who are actually driving the force and the other %90 are sheep or just forced into it because of they had family killed etc or propaganda. Then MAYBE they (hizbullah) are not ALL animals, maybe there are actually normall people who can think for themselves. I think the media portrays all rebels as Terrorists. Its easy to kill someone, or find support if you lable them something that terrifys everyday people. And make the masses believe that they are ALL mindless drones unable to love, think, laugh and even lay down weapons. (I do aggree that there are some psyco madmen who wont rest untill were all dead) But many, i think are everyday people caught up in hell with no options.

If you have only the option of fight or die theres not much choice. I think if you can give people other options the normall people will choose peace.

What those choices are... i cant say

If you want peace then you have to realise that there are also normall people involved. And killing more innocents creates more rebles.



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:A slightly different take on the issue:

http://www.exile.ru/2006-July-28/a_hezbollah_upon_all_of_thee.html



_Poiboy_
_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel
Member Since: 12th Jan 2004
Total posts: 1113
Posted:just saw this... this was written by Robert North.

Are the Qana photographs staged?



if this is true then the hizbullah are worst than i thought they are



EDIT: just found this on one of the comments on that article

more on the Qana photographs

EDITED_BY: Poiboy (1154475571)



NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Even if the photos were 'staged' I don't think that says anything about 'hizbullah'... I think it's fairly typical for news agenecies to set up the scene to get compelling photographs. Sad and unprofessional but common. Molly's family was in Lebanon and mentioned that one of the buildings that was shown on TV was actually destroyed well before the recent events.

I've been in a few newsworthy situations and was AMAZED how by putting the camera in just the right spot and editing just right the 'facts' can be made to look very differently. If you'd have seen the news coverage after both California earthquakes in the 80s, you'd have thought that all of California was dead when in actuality there were realtively few injuries and only isolated fatalities.

Stepping back from the middle east (for just a second) this kind of journalism is almost expected. If you're covering a fire, put the camera where the fire looks biggest. If you're covering a protest, zoom in on the crazy guy. I naturally assume that everything not directly in front of the camera is fine.... which is probably an overreaction in the other direction.

The media is the weapon of choice for terrorists and governments.


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llesser_nllpois
newbie
Location: Monkton
Member Since: 2nd Aug 2006
Total posts: 19
Posted:if everybody loved poi like us then we wouldnt have war grouphug grouphug heart poi is the solution to world peace why do the muslims not realise that? excl grouphug help heart we should fly a plane over their country and drop loads of poi to them they would love us then angelblue beerchug ubblove ubblove hug
EDITED_BY: llesser_nllpois (1154521908)



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: llesser_nllpois


why do the muslims not realise that? we should fly a plane over their country and drop loads of poi to them they would love us then



Interesting idea, but perhaps it would be more useful to fly a plane and drop loads of poi over America, since no other country has caused or supported as much death and destruction in recent times???



GazLightaPoi
newbie

Member Since: 3rd Aug 2006
Total posts: 13
Posted:I'd be happy to see Bush, Blair, Cheney and all their Israeli cohorts imprisoned for life for crimes against humanity....

If the peeps don't understand why people don't like the USA govt. they should look at
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html
br>T
hese are the UN votes that the US has vetoed, which have all to do with either Israel, Human Rights violations in other countries, or WMD. For good measure, here are the security council vetos too
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...o/vetosubj.htm
br>
When you add these all up they come to an awful lot of human rights violations and a lot of pissed off people around the world....they bring it on theirselves



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:And this is just the America's role in the UN... Add to this:



-Their financial and military support for dictators in South and Central America to counter democratic leftist movements



-Their unrelenting support for dictators in the Middle East and Asia in countries such as Saudi Arabia, other Gulf states, Iraq, Pakistan, etc.



-Their long-term financial and military support until very recently for Islamic fundamentalist movements around the world, and particularly in Pakistan and Afghanistan, to counter the expansion of communism.



-Etc...

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1154595525)



FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:This now is leading into another thread: "Why are the US of the A's so impopular these days?"

The problem is, that such a big and powerful country is governed by people and that power is very tempting to commit abuse.

Interestingly and very unfortunate there are very few countries on this planet who have a clean record in history. Since WWII the US and the USSR have been the major player on the globe and they learned from centuries of colonialism and polytricks of the UK, France and Spain. But now we can pinpoint and we're lucky enough to find "the bad guy".

Hence this doesn't lead us any further, because we're falling into the same trap. It's nothing more than kindergarden ("he's the bad guy, he's the bad guy, nana nana naana")...

The European Union is not less to blame for the US-measures and global politicks. They well know what is going on and where it leads to, but they don't do anything about it. And why not? Because ultimatively the US does what the rest would rather like to do, but doesn't dare to. They share the benefits, but not the risks - the US system is made up in a way that there are hardly loosers, if the crap is revealed to the public.

I dunno about the rest of the world's govt's, but in Germany the country is run by lawyers. The majority of the politicians are professional lawyers - and whatever good would you expect to come from a lawyer anyways?

So we may continue to look for the blame with others (because others may not have the full range of information), but ultimatively we should focus on what our very own part of the cake is.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:double post :eeks:

Human rights watch has reduced the number of victims, killed in Qana by the IDF just a week ago from 52 to 28. Certainly that does'n make it much better.

According to Lebanon PM there are 900 victims as to date. According to lebanese ministry of health there are 762, other sources speak of 643. CNN speaks of 603 lebanese killed vs. 56 Israeli (incl. 19 civilian casualties)...

According to press reports the Hizbullah yesterday fired more rockets into Israel than on any other: 200 - 230 was the number counted.

 Written by: Human rights watch

Since July 12, when Hezbollah launched an attack on Israeli positions initially killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two, Israel and Hezbollah have engaged in intense hostilities. Israel has carried out hundreds of strikes against targets in Lebanon, including extensive attacks against Lebanons infrastructure, private homes and apartment buildings, as well as vehicles moving on roads. (...)
To date, the chief cause of civilian deaths from the Israeli campaign is targeted strikes on civilian homes in villages of Lebanons South. There has also been large-scale destruction of civilian apartment buildings in southern Beirut, though most of the residents of those buildings had evacuated prior to the attacks. According to the Lebanese Ministry of Social Affairs, the IDF destroyed or damaged up to 5,000 civilian homes in air strikes during the first two weeks of the war. As demonstrated by the case studies below, Israel has caused large-scale civilian casualties by striking civilian homes, with no apparent military objective either inside the home or in the vicinity.

In some cases, warplanes returned to strike again while residents and neighbors had gathered around the house to remove the dead and assist the wounded.

Israel claims that it is attacking homes belonging to Hezbollah members, and that Hezbollah is responsible for putting civilians at risk by placing their military positions inside or close to civilian homes. On July 19, for example, the IDF stated that Hezbollah terrorists have turned southern Lebanon into a war zone and are operating near population centers there, using civilians as human shields. On the same day, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman, told CNN: We are trying to minimize hurting civilians, but when Hezbollah uses civilians as human shields, sometimes civilians will get hurt.

Human Rights Watch research established that, on some limited occasions, Hezbollah fighters have attempted to store weapons near civilian homes and have fired rockets from areas where civilians live. However, such practices do not justify the IDFs failure to distinguish between combatants and civilians.



 Written by: Human Rights Watch

On July 15, for example, a group of villagers from Marwahin left the area in a convoy, in part because Hezbollah was attempting to store weapons behind their homes, and residents feared a retaliatory IDF strike. Two rockets believed to have been fired from Israeli helicopters struck a white pick-up and a passenger car in the convoy on the road between the villages of Chamaa and Biyada, killing twenty-one civilians (see Attacks on Fleeing Civilians). A U.N. team trying to retrieve the bodies came under fire from the IDF. While the villagers flight could be attributed in part to Hezbollahs unlawful attempt to store weapons in Marwahinthe main reason for flight was the Israeli warning to evacuate within two hourHuman Rights Watch found no evidence to suggest that Hezbollah fighters were near the civilian convoy when it got hit.

Christian villagers fleeing the village of `Ain Ebel have also complained about Hezbollah tactics that placed them at risk, telling the New York Times that Hezbollah came to [our village] to shoot its rockets. They are shooting from between our houses. `Ain Ebel was a former stronghold for the Israeli-backed South Lebanese Army (SLA), a force opposed to Hezbollah. According to an official from `Ain Ebel, some villagers told him that Hezbollah had fired at Israel from certain positions close to their houses, although so far Human Rights Watch has heard no reports of Hezbollah entering any village homes. No villagers have died but a number have been injured (mostly from broken glass), and Israeli fire had destroyed roughly eighty of 400 houses, he said.

Human Rights Watch is hardly asserting that all Israeli strikes have targeted civilians. There are obviously many cases in which Israeli forces attacked legitimate military targets, such as rocket launchers and dug-in military positions. However, in the cases documented below, no apparent military objective existed in the civilian houses that Israel attacked. Villagers interviewed privately in one-on-one settings stated credibly and consistently that Hezbollah was not present in their homes or the vicinity when the attacks took place, and Human Rights Watch found no other evidence to suggest that Hezbollah had been there.



Full human rights watch report

According to Stanley Fischer (Head of the Israeli Fed) the war costs about 180 Millionen Euro per week. Now when mentioning this number, my friend said: "How senseless! If the Israeli would have invested this money in schools and kindergardens, or housing projects for the Lebanese and Palestinians..."

Anyone agrees?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: FireTom


According to Stanley Fischer (Head of the Israeli Fed) the war costs about 180 Millionen Euro per week.
Anyone agrees?



And where do you think this money will come from? Mostly through US military and financial aid I'm sure. So it's not entirely off the topic to discuss why most of the world hates the US...

The fact is, Israel can only do what it does because it has unconditional American support, and the EU does nothing because a) it simply isn't powerful enough, and b) it is still suffering from a major case of holocaust guilt, for which people who had nothing to do with the holocaust have been suffering for the last 50 years.



NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Again, I disagree with what, exactly, America is guilty of. I don't understand how people could be angered that "America is not interfering" when so many complaints are made that America interferes too much.

And why so FEW people have 'followed the money' to the fact that America is FUNDING this whole opperation.

But anyway... back to some of the earlier topics... I wonder if those of us who disagree with the rational for killing innocent civilians would also disagree in how they would answer several variants of the Trolley Problem.

I'm of the "Throw the switch if it means killing 999 rather than 1000" mindset and I know that some of you would disagree.

I've spent most of today fascinated by thought experiments on the Wikipedia and was interested to find one that seemed to account for Lightning and Andrea's differing opinions.

The trolley problem is actually interesting enough for a different thread but I do think it's relevant here. Those that would push the fat man would probably be less senstive about killing innocent lives.


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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: NYC


Again, I disagree with what, exactly, America is guilty of. I don't understand how people could be angered that "America is not interfering" when so many complaints are made that America interferes too much.




What America is guilty of in one word: Hypocrisy.

And not just in the case of Israel and Palestine. There are so many examples of the American government's double standards and complete disregard for the values they try to push down everyone else's throats that one could write a book about it.

Plus I think by constantly vetoing UN resolutions against Israel and supplying it with arms during a war the US has given up any claim to non-interference. It is most certainly interfering, just not in a positive way. The US uses its power and influence to escalate the violence instead of stopping it.



sagetree
sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth
Member Since: 7th May 2006
Total posts: 246
Posted:very interesting NYC

i would flip the switch so that less people were killed. but pushing the fat man doesn't mean that he will stop the trolley for sure so i don't think i would push him.



NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!


 Written by: NYC


Again, I disagree with what, exactly, America is guilty of. I don't understand how people could be angered that "America is not interfering" when so many complaints are made that America interferes too much.




What America is guilty of in one word: Hypocrisy.




I think that might just be an oversimplification. As are all one word descriptions of countries.

In support of that, I think the current American government has quite clearly done what they believe is best for the current American Government. I don't think bombing one country and not bombing another is hypocritical if both things serve the American govenment. It's selfish, not hypocritical.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: sagetree


very interesting NYC

i would flip the switch so that less people were killed. but pushing the fat man doesn't mean that he will stop the trolley for sure so i don't think i would push him.



Well it's a thought experiment so the assumption that it would stop the trolley is part of the experiment. smile


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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:part of the strong US support comes from the far right, the Christian Conservatives who believe that Jews must be in their holy land in order for Jesus to return

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Really? Wow, I clearly don't hang out with the Christian Right enough to hear rumors like that one.

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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:clearly. but its why they're some of the strongest zionist supporters

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:But Mel Gibson told me that the Radical Right hates the Jews for killing Jesus. Or not killing Jesus. Or something. I dunno, he was mumbling a lot.

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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:ubblol

some of the radical right believes the jews need to be in israel so that the rapture can come and wipe away all the heathens.

they just need to be there, then they can be destroyed


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: NYC



But Mel Gibson told me that the Radical Right hates the Jews for killing Jesus. Or not killing Jesus. Or something. I dunno, he was mumbling a lot.





You should know better than to take Mel seriously when he's had a few drinks smile



Also, the fact that the radical right hates jews is entirely compatible with them wanting the Jews to stay in Israel- the main thing form their point of view is that the biblical prophecy is fulfilled.


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But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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sagetree
sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth
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Posted: Written by: NYC


But Mel Gibson told me that the Radical Right hates the Jews for killing Jesus. Or not killing Jesus. Or something. I dunno, he was mumbling a lot.



ubblol ubblol ubblol



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: FireTom



a) it is not THE AMERICANS who unconditionally support Israel... this statement is BS and you well know it. The correct statement would be: There is massive support for Israel from the US, because there are many Jews living inside the US (as US-citizens) and they have lots of money and power AND because they purchase weapons in the US.

b) as you seem to have full insight in the flow of money that is directed to Israel: do you know that EVERY Israeli citizen has to pay a monthly "security tax" to the gov't (whether or not they are living/ residing in Israel) AND that Israel is (despite it's size and population) on no. 28 of the worlds GDP?

Israel is much more than just the US' appendix.







FireTom, I agree that the average redneck American has no interest in Israel, but surely in a lovely, perfect, democracy like the US, the average American should take at least SOME responsibility for American foreign policy, especially when it leads to chaos and destruction in large parts of the world? And isn't it somewhat politically incorrect to just blame the Jews?



Every Israeli may have to pay a 'security tax', but do you know that at the end of the day EVERY Israeli receives (not personally in their bank account of course)US$14630 per year in US aid?! Is the security tax more than 14630 dollars per year? And why does a country with the 28th highest GDP require so much foreign assistance? I was under the impression that developed first world countries GAVE aid, not RECEIVED it. I'm not an economist, and I may be wrong, but my understanding is that without US aid Israel simply wouldn't have the 28th highest GDP in the world. So tell me again that the US does not fund Israeli wars...



As for US hypocrisy, are you saying that it is not hypocritical to invade and occupy Iraq, killing tens of thousands of innocent people in order to spread democracy, while supporting governments in places like Saudi Arabia? If that's not hypocrisy then I guess I don't know what the word means.



Regarding terrorism, you seem to make sweeping generalisations, lumping all 'terrorists' into one group. The fact is there is a HUGE difference between organisations like Al Qaeda who have attacked western countries, and organisations like Hamas and the resistance in Iraq, who are fighting occupying forces.

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1154682720)



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: FireTom



"The Jews" did not invade Israel and occupy it. This country was given to them from the British government. To those who survived the Holocaust and to finally - after at least 1.500 years of oppression - provide them with a nation. Some don't seem to get this inside their brains. rolleyes

For the Muslims it could have been a great benefit, that "the Jews" came.

Repeat: Jerusalem is only the 3rd most important religious site for Muslims

but I can see you being caught up in the trendy anti-american, pro guerilla black and white game, due to some ignorance.

Make up your own mind and collect informations and facts! Please. This is what the "information age" is all about...







FireTom, I'm sorry but I think you keep contradicting yourself. You say that organisations like Hezbollah or Hamas are no better than Israel (which many of us could potentially agree on), but I would take that to mean that Israel is also no better than Hezbollah or Hamas. But you are obviously very pro Israel, so I assume that is not what you mean.



Also, I'm sorry but it is really not up to you to tell me whether my opinion is welcome or not. Please try not to be so condescending. You seem to assume that your 'facts' are correct, while mine are not, whereas most of your statements consist of opinions, not facts. The actions of Hezbollah being worse than those of the IDF is your opinion, it is NOT a fact. On the other hand, US aid amounting to $14630 per Israeli is a fact, yet you chose to ignore that, even though in your previous post you'd gone on about how financially independent Israel is of the US.



As for Jerusalem, please explain to us why you think that it is justifiable to occupy someone else's city just because you think it is more important to you than it is to them? I'm very interested in this particular argument of yours, so please elaborate.



I would also like you to explain why you think it was justifiable for the British government to give somebody else's land to the Jews, because they had been persecuted by Germans. Also, does this mean that ALL ethnic or religious groups who have not had their own country for 1500 years should be given a country? Why not? And trust me, it can never be 'a great benefit' to be evicted from your land so that a bunch of Russians can be settled there while you yourself become a refugee.



As for my less than perfect overview of Middle Eastern politics, it comes mostly from reading (I don't have any Arab or Israeli friends). So where exactly does your perfect overview come from? From hanging out with a bunch of Israeli travelers who have just gotten through their military service? I'm sure you would get VERY balanced, accurate information from them, and I sure am glad you regard their opinions as the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1154697441)



NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: FireTom



Dunno, maybe it'S because EVERY SINGLE NATION ON THIS PLANET is in debt?



How is every nation on the planet in debt? Who do we owe the money to?

*Cue X-Files theme music*


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by: fireNice


part of the strong US support comes from the far right, the Christian Conservatives who believe that Jews must be in their holy land in order for Jesus to return



I can confirm I've also heard this. In fact, it's been quoted at Christian Coalition meetings.


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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: FireTom



The great difference between AlHizHam to Israel is, that the IDF does NOT hide behind innocent civilians, but tries to protect the (as innocent) citizens of Israel from cowardly attacks. This is a FACT not an opinion and I think it's obvious.





It is also a FACT, that Israel has been attacking civilian targets in Lebanon where there is no likelihood of any Hezbollah presence, killing completely innocent civilians. Yesterday Israel attacked targets in the Christian part of Beirut, killing (gasp!) Christians! This must be a new development. Christian Hezbollah!





 Written by: FireTom



and b) inform yourself about the middle east a little more detailled, before you make statements like this:

(please would you like to backup the number of civilian casualties in Iraq due to the US invasion that you indicate and maybe specify more detailled, how you look at "governments in places like Saudi Arabia"...I already told you that they had democratic elections in 05 - they are as valid as the elections in the UK or the US)...





I am glad you already told us that Saudi Arabia had elections, which were as valid as elections in the UK or the US. We're talking about a country where the ruling royal family still controls all the wealth and power, where people's hands are cut off for stealing bread, where people are beheaded for possessing marijuana, and where women cannot drive, in fact cannot even legally leave the house unless accompanied by a male relative. So following the elections, who became the prime minister / president of SA? I think I missed that bit of news somehow...



As for Iraqi civilian casualties, what exactly do you want to know? That estimates range from 30,000 to 100,000? That nobody really knows, because nobody has bothered to count, because Arab lives are not worth as much as American or British lives? Since you are so keen on web links, here's one of many:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
br>






 Written by: FireTom



Dunno, maybe it'S because EVERY SINGLE NATION ON THIS PLANET is in debt? Also the US is in debt...





I will not even bother to respond to this, someone else already has anyway.





 Written by: FireTom



I do not disregard the fact, that the US government supports Israel with huge ammounts of money. I just don't happen to know en detail how many US Americans support their government. wink Therefore I oppose your opinion that the "vast majority of Americans..."





Please show me where I used the words "vast majority of Americans". I used the word "America", because as a country America does unconditionally (yes, I do think it's unconditional simply because I've never heard of the US opposing anything Israel has done) support Israel. The fact that the foreign policy is controled by 2% of the population is a different matter.





 Written by: FireTom



On top of this: the money flows back, as the IDF buys weapons in the US - you neglect this fact. Therefore this support is maybe less to help Israel, but to boost their own arms industry... wink This is a very common misunderstanding when it comes to the term "support"...





Ah, very clever! But you know what would be easier? Instead of supporting its arms industry indirectly, by giving money to another country so that it can buy American weapons, America could simply give that money directly to its arms industry for research and development, completely bypassing the other country! Now why didn't anyone think of that?!





 Written by: FireTom



The occupation of Jerusalem was in no ways a justifyable act, but an absolute necessity. Would you - by whatever means - accept a territory within your country, or even capital, where terrorists - who are dedicated to destroy and kill you - can accumulate power and armory? I don't think so. But maybe I played too many PC strategic games... shrug





To fight terrorism you have to address the root cause, I personally believe there is no other way. If people have security and a decent standard of living they are very unlikely to blow themselves up. On the other hand, if someone is living in fear every single day of their lives, have lost their house to Israeli settlers, have had half their family killed 'accidentally' by the IDF, what exactly do you expect from them? That they will negotiate?? A person who has nothing to lose is very unlikely to negotiate. All they can really do is to try and make their opressors suffer as much as possible, in any way possible.





 Written by: FireTom



It's a FACT that "the Jews" didn't invade the country, known as Israel today and maybe you inquire with your own gov't what they have been thinking back then - I don't know.





I would be the first to admit that 'my government' has f****d up half the world. All you have to do is look at a map of Africa, with all the straight line country borders to realise that.





 Written by: FireTom



But ultimately I would like to get your opinion on what I said about hate and violence, breeding hate and violence. Why do you symphasize with the AlHizHam against Israel? I don't get it! Because it's a 10:1 ratio? Because it has been "their" homeland?





Yes, because I see Israel as the opressor and the Arabs as opressed. Because Israel as a powerful country can do a lot more to bring about peace than people living under occupation can. Because Israel, even while talking about peace, has always been building new settlements on Arab land. Because even while peace talks continued, Israel was diverting water away from Palestinian villages and onto agricultural land it had occupied. Because even after Israel withdrew from Gaza, innocent Palestinians in Gaza were being killed by the IDF almost every single day. Under these conditions do you really expect the Palestinians to completely give up their arms? Do you expect them to care that Israeli settlers are under stress, because one settler dies every six months due to a rocket attack? Would you like me to go on?





 Written by: FireTom



Hear my (not so humble) opinion: First, if the majority of the (so called) "Palestinians" (besides: TODAY there are 750k displaced - how about the 1960's?)





I don't know where you got this ridiculous figure. According to the UN, in 2004 there were over four million Palestinian refugees. Source:

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html
br>


I hope that answers some of your questions.

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1154777763)



FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Your statement,

 Written by:

Do you expect them to care that Israeli settlers are under stress, because one settler dies every six months due to a rocket attack? Would you like me to go on?



is incorrect - either intentional, or due to a lack of information -For the latter...



Year 2000 to 2004 (within in 1558 days):

20.406 assaults, of those 138 suicide attacks, 13.730 shootings, 460 attacks with Qassam-rockets.



Israeli: 1036 dead (715 civilians) and 7.054 injured!



Palestinans: 3336 dead (985 civilians) or according to Palestinian sources 3.808 dead, 29.456 injured!



Israel names 959 of them as "Terrorists" - 208 of them killed directly. 600 palestinian casualties have been members of the palestinian security forces, secret service or police - which accusedly often engages in terror-acts



126 Palestinian women died - Israeli women 285...



365 Palestinians have been killed by their own men due to "lynchjustice" of accused traitors and collaborateurs. On Israeli side 22 people died due to "friendly fire"...




(taken from the German Wikipedia site - to extract the details from the english site (up to date) it would take me thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat long, sorry)



However, this means: an innocent Israeli citizen got killed EVERY ALTERNATE DAY (of 2000 - 2004)!



- Now tell me how would you want your gov't to (re)act?



Repeating my questions:



- Why does Israeli terror breed more terrorists, while extremists terror breed compassion?



- What (except relocating Israel) would help to end the conflict???....

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1154799303)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


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