Forums > Technical Discussion > fire poi made completely out of kevlar

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_Poiboy_PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel


Posted:
well, i got the idea from Tepooka Toys at PLAY, they had prototype fire poi made completely out of kevlar, it was basically a knot for a handle, and they wrapped kevlar around the bottom for the head.
my friend bought 5 meters of kevlar rope at play and we made poi like that too, at the top we had this knot for the handle, at the bottom we had a monkey fist (2 wraps in each direction). these poi worked great, too bad we didnt soak them in paraffin and they were ruined frown.
anyway i might make those again, any suggestions for knots for the handles that will give the handle weight? and do you think they're safer than regular fire because there's no metal (as in i'll be able to do wraps without getting burnt)?

entheogenGOLD Member
member
173 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany


Posted:
Does that mean you only should dip the very end knot? I could imagine people wanting to soak a partial amount of the 'chain' part also to get a cooler effect, but wouldn't the possibility then that the fuel soaks up into the handles then? It sounds like this temptation could make them really dangerous.

I met a German guy last year (damn Im so bad with names, did it start with an M?) that had fire meteors with a type of kevlar rope instead of chain, which I must say for handwraps and whatnot the far better construction is. But the rope looked really different, it had an extra synthetic braid on the outside that made it even less likely to light up somehow. I think he said he got it in some kind of rock climbing shop. If your out there could you post maybe the details?

'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'


_Poiboy_PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel


Posted:
yeah they told me that the fuel can go up the rope if i soak it too long, the point of those poi isnt to be like fire snakes, but to be like regular fire poi, but more comfortable and safe (and believe me, those are the best fire poi i've ever used, i've even managed to do contact poi kickups with them when i could barely do them with socks)

colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
sound exactly like the ones mr bovril monkey (or was it mr chutney...?) made a year or so ago.

i remember playing with them at a falmouth and saying something like "oooooh, these are *seriously* nice...".

anyway, one of those two guys might be able to give you some idea as how to weight your handles.

good luck with your next set of them smile


cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


_Poiboy_PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel


Posted:
yeah simian had a pair of those but with a different knot at the bottom, he told me mr chutney made it for him

Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
OK

Matt, Matt Terry, Spherculism MATT made the ropes that I copied biggrin I first saw his set almost 2 years ago and he had had them for the best part of a year then. I inadvertently leaked the idea and so here we are with Chutney ropes left right and centre. I deserve only the credit of a plagarist (an enthusiastic one no less).

Before people go telling everyone to make them it MUST be recognised that FIREPOI OF THIS DESIGN ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

They are just one big wick and there is absolutely nothing preventing your poi from soaking completely and burning you. Also the rope above the dipped knot of a head gets extremely hot and will no doubt perish in time- at some point, the rope will fail and it is likely the head will come off during a spin. I say again; FIREPOI OF THIS DESIGN ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

No new spinner should play with these as they will punish and hurt the inexperienced (both in poi spinning and proximity to fire toys and the dangers).

I'm sorry to be all fire and brimstone, but in the wrong hands people really could be seriously injured and I really, really don't want it ever to the the case that someone comes on HOP one day with a 'chutney ropes burned my face' or something like that.

That said.

They offer a level of feel and control which is unsurpassed- they are more throwable (again, read the dangers), wibbleable (if you construct them well) and in theory are safer for wraps as they don't have the metal which is often the culprit in burning spinners.

Thay also have their limitations. They don't tangle very well (the rope needs to be thick which in turn makes it less flexible)- airwraps are find and 'normal' (sorry rev) cross body hyperloops are acceptable, but no extended tangling is really possible. You also need to be pretty dextrous (?!) when attempting buzzsaw and antispun moves as the rope will twist and turn, making the spin less predictable.

Handle construction is an area I'm just getting into myself poiboy- bearing in mind that the weighting of the unlit poi will change significantly with the dipped weight of the heads (and throws also change with the wind resistance of the fire.) I'm experimenting with my fourth set and I've still yet to reach my ideal set.

My bag is empty, the cat has left...

_Poiboy_PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel


Posted:
 Written by: Mr_Chutney


Also the rope above the dipped knot of a head gets extremely hot and will no doubt perish in time- at some point, the rope will fail and it is likely the head will come off during a spin.



hmm... didnt think of that, also the long burn time the monkeyfist give might be a factor, which is probably why the ones we made were ruined, there was only about half the original width of the rope holding the monkeyfist together. my friend didnt soak his regular fire poi too, but they came out of the burn perfectly, probably because the burn time was much shorter (by the time my poi stopped burning my friend had about 2 burns)

anyway, do you think that there's a way to protect the rope from the heat so it would damage slower?

oh and i thought of making weighted handles for regular fire poi out of kevlar rope, and attaching it to my chains, do you think that will work (im using ball chain, and im making new cathedrals for them)

marcoenthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk


Posted:

I was experimenting with this design around three years ago and have follwed this subject with some interest, I was never really happy about relying on a kevlar only build and was concerned about rope failures and head detachments, ended up going down a different routes, although I did made a few of these, they seemed to last fairly well.

mark

entheogenGOLD Member
member
173 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany


Posted:
Maybe you could reinforce the rope at the head with an extra layer of kevlar tightly sown with kevlar string around it to protect the rope. If put on snug enough the extra kevlar coating would be the only thing that burns and not the actual rope holding the weight.

A friend of mine made her kevlar ropes entirely out of regular kevlar wick that she folded up and then sewed together with kevlar string. They not only burned longer, but toy lifetime was longer, and since the material is much stiffer she never had to worry about tangles (for her this was bonus points).

'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'


_Poiboy_PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel


Posted:
great idea, i thought of doing that, i'll try that when i get some kevlar

marcoenthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk


Posted:

Essentially that is where I went with my snake builds, either 65 or 120mm wick spiral wrapped around a chain former, this is individually stitched through each chain link, I have also used tubular kevlar wick as a shroud around regular kevlar rope.

mark

_Poiboy_PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel


Posted:
since PLAY is approaching and i want to make these, is there any solution to the problems with them soaking the fuel up the whole rope or with the rope above the wick breaking off?

UCOFSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
15,414 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
Bovril tried whipping the rope with kevlar thread to stop it drawing fuel up the wick. i think it worked, not sure though.

regarding the rope breaking above the wick... im not sure what you can do about that frown
I think its just wear and tear.

_Poiboy_PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel


Posted:
would thinner rope be good? like 1/4 inch? since the monkeyfist would burn for a shorter time? also putting it out using damp towels instead of spinning it out?

UCOFSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
15,414 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
I doubt it. frown

Actually.. doing no hyperloops or airwraps would probably work.. ubbidea

Thinner rope would be worse as it would break quicker.

Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
The 'original' set that Simian had failed a while back, just as predicted- the head flew off mid spin- not safe, not clever frown

I still haven't really got to a decent fire poi construction- I've only burnt once in the last year or so and it really isn't a driving factor in my playing at the moment.

The thinner rope, greater flexibility thing is a real shame as it inherently weakens the design and that design is already critically flawed.

simian110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London


Posted:
Before failing, the section just above the wick had become very obviously frayed and degraded. I was saying it was only a matter of time before it broke about a week before they actually died.

So if i'd been responsible and sensible then I'd have scrapped them on safety grounds when i noticed the damage.

Before they failed they were easily the nicest fire poi i've ever used.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."


simian110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London


Posted:
 Written by: Mr_Chutney

You also need to be pretty dextrous (?!) when attempting buzzsaw and antispun moves as the rope will twist and turn, making the spin less predictable.



i disagree with this. There's a slightly noticeable effect from not having any swivels, but no moreso than ordinary sock poi IMO.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."


Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
Monkey! Nice to see you around these parts smile

I wasn't suggesting that you were irresponsible- if that was the understanding i'll reword my post- I merely meant that the poi are pretty dangerous and tha they will inevitably fail (albeit if you don't take heed of their deteriroation).

Re their difference in spin due to rope twist- they probably break in quite a bit, so the effect is lessened, and your particular set were very well bedded in. Early in their life the ropes are quite structurally rigid and, in comparison to my hyperloop cone poi for example, are far less flexible.

fantasiaBRONZE Member
stranger
13 posts
Location: stockport, United Kingdom


Posted:
just a quick question, does any one know if white spirit is ok for fire poi?

YakumoSILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
quick google comparison, white spirit flash point arround 21c, paraffin anything 73c to 160c.

ie: BAAAaaaaaad idea.

it'll burn very fast, and high temp, major risk to you, and will wear out your poi.
fuel container likely to explode.

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin


newgabeSILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia


Posted:
Bad idea.

You might have heard of USA people burning white GAS. Which is like butane I think, camping gas. And not a good idea unless you are in a culture that is very experienced with its use, as it is explosive. (Though some benefits are little residue on wicks and flashy flame apparently)



But white spirit, no. That is more like methylated spirits/turps... crap flame, nothing going for it.



and hey, *does double take* what's this question doing in here? Have a search for 'fuel' in the threads, fantasia, there's loads of discussion on it elsewhere. *said nicely not like telling off* wink

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....


Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
I've spent the best part of 6 hours today playing with hanle ideas, head knots etc and I think I've come up with a combination that will work for wibbles and throws.

I've been wanting (already spent about 15 minutes this afternoon fire wibbling with some lovely big flames).



Just need to get some new kevlar rope on order and I should have a set ready for Play and the ensuing festivals biggrin
EDITED_BY: Mr_Chutney (1180867455)

_Poiboy_PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel


Posted:
cool. can you make me a pair and sell them to me at PLAY?

Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
I'm very reluctant to sell any as I don't have any real standards for quality control or safety.

The handle I'm looking to use is basically just a large bouncy ball- it will be too big for many peoploes preferences I'm sure.

I'll happily show you how I build mine (assuming they work as well as I expect them too)- last year it was possible to buy wick at the site, but this year I guess that might not be the case- bring some rope with you? smile

FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
To me it simply sounds like an awful waste of kev...

Monkey fist on kev rope = snakes with monkey heads

(interesting but still, limited moves - much like with snakes)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
The whole point of making these is to not limit, and to improve feel so that basically you can play with fire in much the same way as you cansocks. The fire aspect will always restrict somewhat, but in general I think these will spin and more importantly feel better than most off the shelf fire poi.

We'll see eh?

FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
hmm ubbidea get it... One would think that burning rope rubbing at each other might hurt the kev/ that buzzsaws and wraps get incredibly challenging...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


TheBovrilMonkeySILVER Member
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England


Posted:
 Written by: FireTom


Monkey fist on kev rope = snakes with monkey heads




Only if you like burning your hands and soak the whole lot in fuel.
I just soak the head of the poi so the flame stays at the end.

Yep, the kevlar does wear through eventually so you've got to watch for signs of that, but you've got to watch for signs of impending breakage with any type of fire poi and it's a lot easier to inspect a rope than the internal parts of ball chain.

Also, because there are no metal parts, the chances of being burned are fairly substantially reduced as kevlar doesn't conduct heat into flesh anywhere near as well as metal.

All in all, simply not an awful waste of kevlar smile

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.


Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
New rope arrived at my desk 5 minutes ago biggrin

Mr_ChutneySILVER Member
Tosser
1,712 posts
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)


Posted:
Picture of the new set, unburnt, in my gallery smile

Testing this weekend (weather permitting):

https://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=500&page=1

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